Beat Way to Get Tube Break Up/Distortion

[mickeydg5]

So is anyone getting a "crunch" from DSL40C Clean channel when maxed? If so, at what settings?

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

I am going to have to gracefully disagree with others stating that there is no power amp distortion on a DSL or other high gain amps when you crank it.
It will not sound exactly like a Plexi but it is there.
That kind of statement might be about 90% correct if you were using like a Mesa amp but with Marshalls.....It IS there!

Spot on. The power amp section of a DSL doesn't sound that different from the one on a Superlead-type amp.
I know that for a fact from using the SV20H preamp into the DSL100 poweramp . I use them in a stereo rig, using the SV20H as the main amp (and sole preamp), and splitting to stereo with my Eventide delay going into the FX returns of both the SV and DSL.
And guess what ? What comes out of the DSL's cab isn't very different that what comes out of the SV's one. Marginally more gain on the SV side (as it's 20w vs the DSL's 100w, so the power section is pushed a bit more), but other than that, little difference.
Incidentally, that's also how I know a large part of the gain on the SV comes from the preamp (very similar to what you get on the DSL in Crunch mode with gain above 5, or on Lead 1 with gain low), contrary to what most tend to think.

on the DSL, try the pre-amp around 5 & the master around 5.

You can then try turning the pre-amp gain down to 4 & try the volume a little louder, or, turn the volume down to 4 & turn the pre-amp gain to around 6.

Play w/ it, around there & see if you can get satisfactory results...

If it's too loud, then you'll have to rely on a bit more pre-amp gain & lower volume.

Keep in mind, those are all controlling the DSL's preamp (at least on the JCM2000 and 1st reissue, it might be different with the DSL100HR, as it has overall volume settings). The JCM2000 DSL has no way of controlling the poweramp by itself, it's always on 10.

So is anyone getting a "crunch" from DSL40C Clean channel when maxed? If so, at what settings?

Yes, you get some. Crank the gain, get the volume high enough to get the PI and power tubes clipping.
Basically in the DSL, as far as the amount of gain is concerned, you have some overlap between modes: Clean with gain between 7 and 10 is the same as Crunch with gain between 1 and 3, and so on.

 

[Michael Roe]

Spot on. The power amp section of a DSL doesn't sound that different from the one on a Superlead-type amp.
I know that for a fact from using the SV20H preamp into the DSL100 poweramp . I use them in a stereo rig, using the SV20H as the main amp (and sole preamp), and splitting to stereo with my Eventide delay going into the FX returns of both the SV and DSL.
And guess what ? What comes out of the DSL's cab isn't very different that what comes out of the SV's one. Marginally more gain on the SV side (as it's 20w vs the DSL's 100w, so the power section is pushed a bit more), but other than that, little difference.
Incidentally, that's also how I know a large part of the gain on the SV comes from the preamp (very similar to what you get on the DSL in Crunch mode with gain above 5, or on Lead 1 with gain low), contrary to what most tend to think.

I have compared the same power amps essentially, the SV and a JCM 2K DSL 50. I noticed quite a bit of difference between them. I used a JMP-1 preamp into both and the SV power section sings much more. The DSL power section sounds much bigger and more scooped. Some guys think a power amp section doesn't do much but they would be very wrong on that. I did an experiment recently. I had a mesa rectifier and a DSL. Both running into identical cabs. Run the Marshall into the Mesa power section: sounds like you cut it's nuts off. Run the mesa into the DSL power section: Holy shit! HUGE!!!! The mesa also allowed you to use EL34s. So, I put the same tubes in each amp and tested again. The result was about identical. EL34's in a mesa are a waste of $$$. The power amp section of a mesa is about as close to a SS amp as you can get.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Interesting. Testing on my side is with different cabs, so there is that. But in my experimentation, tone wasn't massively different.Not the same, definitely, and you can hear that the SV power section is more pushed than the DSL one, but it isn't a night and day difference either. I'll do some more tests (as I need to work on the stereo rig this week) and report back.

One thing I totally agree on is, swapping tubes in an amp won't make it magically sounds completely different. I used to own a Brunetti Pirata amp, which had both 6L6 AND EL34s in pairs, with a pot allowing you to go from one to the other, and any mix in-between. And tone wasn't very different going from one to the other, differences were kinda minute. Definitely not a big chance in character, even at stage volume (competing with a drummer). Which made me realize that more than power tubes, the difference mostly lays in the way the amp is voiced and designed. Not only in the preamp, but in the power amp as well. And two EL34 amps aren't bound to sound the same just because they use the same power tubes, far from than actually.
I also agree that Mesa power sections are as clean as it gets. Guess that's why at one point John Suhr recommended using the 3+SE into the power section of a Marshall 100 watter. Definitely a completely different voicing.

 

[mickeydg5]

Yes, you get some. Crank the gain, get the volume high enough to get the PI and power tubes clipping.
Basically in the DSL, as far as the amount of gain is concerned, you have some overlap between modes: Clean with gain between 7 and 10 is the same as Crunch with gain between 1 and 3, and so on.

That is what I thought. Many describe that.
So if that amplifier is all clean then something is dropping the signal level to a point where no crunch/overdrive occurs.

 

[mickeydg5]

I have compared the same power amps essentially, the SV and a JCM 2K DSL 50. I noticed quite a bit of difference between them. I used a JMP-1 preamp into both and the SV power section sings much more. The DSL power section sounds much bigger and more scooped. Some guys think a power amp section doesn't do much but they would be very wrong on that. I did an experiment recently. I had a mesa rectifier and a DSL. Both running into identical cabs. Run the Marshall into the Mesa power section: sounds like you cut it's nuts off. Run the mesa into the DSL power section: Holy shit! HUGE!!!! The mesa also allowed you to use EL34s. So, I put the same tubes in each amp and tested again. The result was about identical. EL34's in a mesa are a waste of $$$. The power amp section of a mesa is about as close to a SS amp as you can get.

How was the Loop Active Master level set on the Mesa Boogie?
There may be other things that affect levels.
Now you gonna have to do the whole experiment again.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

That is what I thought. Many describe that.
So if that amplifier is all clean then something is dropping the signal level to a point where no crunch/overdrive occurs.

It's more that it has lots of headroom, which means you have to drive it pretty hard to get it to distort. Which happens by having preamp volumes high, obviously. But to my ear it isn't that much different from what you find in Superleads (where the preamp stage is full on, High Treble and Normal volume pots behaving more like preamp gain pots) or 2203s. I guess schematics would reflect that, but I haven't studied them.

 

[Michael Roe]

How was the Loop Active Master level set on the Mesa Boogie?
There may be other things that affect levels.
Now you gonna have to do the whole experiment again.

I didn't mean levels in volume but TONE!!!!! Those Mesa amps get like 95% of their tone from the preamp.
I knew when I did that, I should have recorded it to show people.
IMHO, a Marshall tube amp gets about 70% of it's tone from the power amp section. I spent a lot of time recently making guitar cab impulse responses and we used SS amps and a shit load of tube amps from varying manufacturers. They all sound and feel different and have a different frequency response. Even different Marshalls can be quite drastically different than others. For instance, a Jubilee mini is really mid scooped, even more so than a DSL.

 

[gary moore]

1. Use bridge pickup.
Turn guitar up to 10, turn tone to 10.
2. Move adjust pickup close to strings as possible.
3. Turn input volume of amp to at least "7."
4. Turn master volume of amp high as room will allow.

Preamp tubes can be weak. This will cause loss of crunch.
Good preamp tubes can make a big difference in crunch.

Using a humbucking pickup instead of single coil can be a major help to get more crunch.

You dont want pick up too close to the strings or you'll get 'wolf' tones,not nice??

 

[end user]

For me the magic happens when I do the following things..

Green channel button clean
crank all channel eq's
presence and resonance at noon
volume 3'oclock
gain between 9 and 10 'oclock but I start with the gain at zero and inch it up until happy time comes to my ears and hands.

I run all JJ tubes and a Vintage 30 speaker.

To my ears and hands it doesnt get any more "Marshall Kerrang" than with those settings and that tube/speaker combination. I'm no expert but it sure sounds and feels like the power tubes are breaking up with those settings. How can I tell? Power tube breakup has more touch dynamics and a looser feel to it than pre-amp gain.

By the way I do this with most amps that have similar controls and the results are similar.

 

[Robert Hughes]

I hear definite breakup from the power tubes. Going up on the volume passed 6, the sound gets much thicker. You have to get these amps up passed at least 3 just to start to get a good sound out of them and I run mine a bit passed 6. I use a weber attenuator to maintain dynamics and control the volume through that.

 

[Rusty Strings]

I have the DSL20HR, use it without pedals and rather than a distortion I think the tone gets more compressed with volume turned up (beyond getting louder), so I set my ultra gain channel volume at the level I get fair chewines on palm mutes and match the clean(classic) in loudness and then it goes through Weber Mass III attenuator . The old DSL5C on clean(classic gain) the dimed volume made the amp fart rather than crunch and I did not use it much. the DSL5c the ultra gain channel had the gain going from 0 to 100 at 10 o'clock, so hearing any volume distortion on the ultra channel was near impossible but I kept gain and volume around noon and used pedals in front plus noise gate. it was more of a feel thing, I did not like the 5c a lot but enough to get me hooked on Marshalls.