Super Lead vs Master Lead… a nuanced question

[V-man]

We know, love and compare both often: NMV vs MV for classic rock, hair metal, etc. etc.

One thing that comes up in such discussions is how some veterans would take a NMV (often modded) over a MV for the higher gain tones of the 1980s (and why). This idea inspired my question for the discussion here…

Which is the better 2203… the MKII Master volume, or the MKII Super Lead with Cascade Gain Mod?

With equal gain and everything external on the table (ODs, boosts - all up to/including Hot Mods) you have two extremely similar amps with two slightly different approaches to high(er) gain Hard Rock and Metal. Granted, not many people have enough experience with a cascade gain NMV… (I imagine even fewer with a lot of experience with both) but this is likely the highest concentration of those with such experience.

So, for the heavier tones (and beyond) with al the external boosts on the table, which is better at that game, MV or NMV… or do you feel them equal for the task?

 

[Purgasound]

I'd have to say the Master versions for heavy metal tones since you're able to control headroom in the PI and the rest of the power section. Not slamming the PI into full saturation means more definition with those palm mutes and chugga chugga riffs. I like both and the Superleads can absolutely work for heavy metal too but it's not suited for certain styles. Also way harder to tame as we all know.
I've got a lot of Superleads and the unmodded ones are beasts. Not for the faint of heart due to the sheer volume. They're either on or off for the most part. I was messing with a '74 Superlead last night and on the first bench test I hit two chords then had to run and get my Power Brake. It was going to blow my ear drums out.
They're hard to put into words to someone who's never stood in front of one full tilt.

 

[SonVolt]

Following...

I'm going to assume the MV version will be tighter and better suited for "80s metal", which to me was thinned out a bit and less open/throaty than a boosted Plexi at full tilt. But then again, tones I thought were 2203s all these years may have been pre-amps, weird slaving techniques or something else altogether. That said, I have the 3rd option - MKII Master volume + Additional Tube-Gain Stage mod which, IMO, is best option of the 3.

 

[V-man]

That said, I have the 3rd option - MKII Master volume + Additional Tube-Gain Stage mod which, IMO, is best option of the 3.

Might just disagree given access to a both JMPs loaded with Hot Mods units to dial additional gain in/out.

 

[SonVolt]

It predates the HOT-MOD, unfortunately. I like it too much to return to stock though, even if it is a one-trick pony.

 

[playloud]

I'd have to say the Master versions for heavy metal tones since your able to control headroom in the PI and the rest of the power section. Not slamming the PI into full saturation means more definition with those palm mutes and chugga chugga riffs.

This point is crucial. If the PI had infinite headroom, then we'd be facing a much simpler question: starting from a Super Lead circuit, is it better to add a cold-biased gain stage (2203) or more conventional gain stage (cascaded 1959) after the first one? If we had infinite PI headroom, you'd essentially be choosing between less (former) or more (latter) gain. But we aren't. The PI in the 1959 circuit is prone to overdriving - it's a big part of the sound - so it's really a question of which flavour of clipping you prefer.

I've modded a couple of amps to have switchable "cold clippers", and am always surprised by how often I prefer the cold clipper setting. Those have had different topologies to the 2203 though. In particular, I like having the cold clipper right in front of the PI (and after the tonestack), a la Trainwreck Express.

 

[cehuff3]

You guys nailed it!

 

[Purgasound]

I just got a nice and clean '74 Superlead that I need to service and I was going to film the process and record some sound clips when finished. I also have an assortment of 2203's (all stock circuits) I can film and record some sound clips to highlight the differences between the two and post back here. I know the differences that I look for but what would anyone else want to hear, like what would you play to hear the difference for yourself?
I tell you one thing though, I'm a rocker, a Les Paul into a Marshall guy, and I roll my eyes at those demo videos where the guys play some wimpy clean riffs through some weird single coil clown guitar into what could be a fire breathing amplifier! No disrespect to other genres of music but give me Motorhead until I'm dead.

In the Superlead category it's worth noting there's always some quirks, same with the 2203's but I think those are a bit more consistent sounding. For 1959's right now I have a '74 and a '75 which sound the same and had another '74 on the bench recently which also just as killer as these two. There's a '78 I have that sounds "stiff". I have never done a deep dive to figure out why. The '78 at full tilt does early Slayer and Metallica tones spot on as to where the earlier ones I have sound a lot more compressed when they're dimed. That '78 sounds great but man, it will work you to death. You've got to really wrangle that fretboard or it will expose every flaw in your playing. My others are much more forgiving. I don't believe there's any magic to it, if I dig into it I'm confident I could identify exactly why. I would likely find an out of spec or substituted component somewhere. I have a '76 1987 which all the 1M pots read 560K! It took me forever to figure out why that one sounded so different than others. I didn't bother changing the pots but I put a very large bright cap in there to bring it closer to what you'd expect to hear.

The MKII Superlead with cascaded gain is probably too subjective since it can be done in so many different ways. I cascade the Normal CH into the Bright CH and reduce the Normal CH cathode bypass cap to like 1uF and I might play with the Bright CH coupling cap value too and use a large 4700pF bright cap in most cases. There some other minor little tricks I put in there too like a pre-phase master and a treble bleed cap. I try to stay within the available footprint of the circuit so the mod is switchable via a push/pull pot. I don't like to lose the ability to recall the functionality and sound of the original circuit. I do it in a way when it's unswitched the four inputs work exactly as they should.

 

[playloud]

I just got a nice and clean '74 Superlead that I need to service and I was going to film the process and record some sound clips when finished. I also have an assortment of 2203's (all stock circuits) I can film and record some sound clips to highlight the differences between the two and post back here. I know the differences that I look for but what would anyone else want to hear, like what would you play to hear the difference for yourself?
I tell you one thing though, I'm a rocker, a Les Paul into a Marshall guy, and I roll my eyes at those demo videos where the guys play some wimpy clean riffs through some weird single coil clown guitar into what could be a fire breathing amplifier! No disrespect to other genres of music but give me Motorhead until I'm dead.

The thing about the wimpy clean riffs is that they make the heavier ones sound bigger! I like to use the guitar's volume knob to demonstrate the onset of overdrive, and play a few things (chords, long sustained notes, riffs etc.) You want to get a sense of how the amp sustains and deals with transients.

In the Superlead category it's worth noting there's always some quirks, same with the 2203's but I think those are a bit more consistent sounding. For 1959's right now I have a '74 and a '75 which sound the same and had another '74 on the bench recently which also just as killer as these two. There's a '78 I have that sounds "stiff". I have never done a deep dive to figure out why. The '78 at full tilt does early Slayer and Metallica tones spot on as to where the earlier ones I have sound a lot more compressed when they're dimed.

Have you checked the NFB loop values are stock on all amps? Should be 100k resistor off 4 ohm tap. Different filtering could also explain this difference.

The MKII Superlead with cascaded gain is probably too subjective since it can be done in so many different ways. I cascade the Normal CH into the Bright CH and reduce the Normal CH cathode bypass cap to like 1uF and I might play with the Bright CH coupling cap value too and use a large 4700pF bright cap in most cases.

I know Marshall did it differently, but I prefer a larger cathode bypass cap (e.g. 10uF over 820R) with a smaller coupling cap (perhaps as low as 1nF). That way you get a higher signal-to-noise ratio with a similar upper-mid frequency emphasis.