Anyone get Amp sims to sound as close to Marshall as possible?

[GabrielRaphael]

Been struggling to get the closest to a real amp for a while now, sims can not feedback, at least solid state amps have some punch from the 12inch speakers and there are other variables (some) still not even possible with sims.

I tried getting the most decent sounds from Softube Marshalls, Neural DSP Omega, STL Tones Howard Benson, Gojira, Nameless and Cali., NONE of the IRs with these sims got close to even the small 100 watt Marshall dfx100 Combo I have around the house....

These are tracks with a 100 watt Marshall combo
Song Strength
Riffs from Song Free (skip around to hear all different ways of picking like Thugs, double thumbs, skidding etc) cant do on a sim amp at all.


Here I have the Amp Sims trying to match up and not even getting close to what was Rough cheesy riffs re recorded at home.

I play two riffs over and over to show of the amps are actually faithfull to the tone but not the IR's punch and cab feels.

The Softube Marshalls (Unfortunately I still do not have the Kerry King)
Marshall Plexi 1959
'59 Plexi Best with default IRs
'59 Plexi With 4x12 Celestial IRs
'59 Plexi With Irs and PA BaxEQ on master
Used in a metal soundtrack
Softube '59 plexi used on Song= SOUND TEST

Marshall 2203
2203 with its best crappy IR (please softube, gemme a break)
2203 with IRs
2203 with a different IR
2203 with IR and EQ on master for the mix

Marshall Jubilee
2550 Alone with ok IRs (think they copied the GnRs)
2550 with decent IR
2550 with IRs and EQ on master
Extremely versatile like the real amp when clean
2550 in a goth track, on bass as well



Marshall Murder One (RIP Lemmy!!)
Murder One with own IRs (ok)
Murder One with decent IR
Murder One with Ir and EQ on Master
Murder One with IR-EQ master LOUD

Neural DSP Sims (Unfortunately I still do not have the Soldano)
Fortin Nameless
Nameless with original iR by Ole
Nameless with decent IR
Nameless with Ir and EQ'd master

Fortin Cali
Cali with own IR
Cali with decent IR
Calie with IR and EQ on master
Very nice ambient clean tones, the reverb is based on the Eventide blackhole
Song Star Trails



Omega
Omega with own IR
Omega with decent IR
Omega with decent IR using 6L6 Tubes and EQ on master
Omega with decent IR using EL34 Tubes and EQ on Master
Omega with decent IR using K66 Tunes and EQ on Master

Gojira
Gojira with own IR
Gojira with decent Soldano IR
Gojira with decent IR and EQ on Master-Guitar Bus

STL Tones
Howard Benson (for high gain the HB has a distortion pedal can that sounds like the Nameless when used but many dont know this)
HB alone (great work by Mike using Wizard IRs)
HB with only EQ on bus, sounds great
HB with a variation of EQ on bus-master etc many tones


Audiotory
Klirrton with own IR
Klittron with decent IR
Klittron with Decent IR and EQ on master or Bus

All decent IRs are by Mike Plotnikoff, Usually 25/30 Watt Celestion Blackbacks

Had no chance to test Audiotory Solidario and Randy, as well as
Nembrini,
BlueCats,
IK Multimedia Amplitube,
ML Sound Labs,
Plugin Alliance,
REVOLVER,
etc etc

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

Interesting research you've done. I wish I could help you out with some resources of my own, but I'm still working through some things myself. If nothing else this can be a
for your post to get some attention from others. Good luck with your search.

 

[Len]

In my experience amp sims only sound good for clean, slight breakup and full metal tones. Middle of the road rock is difficult for then to emulate.

 

[Frodebro]

The technology is more than capable, but if you're trying to recreate (through headphones or studio monitors) the experience of standing in front of a traditional guitar amp and speakers, you're never going to get there. Modelers driving traditional cabs will, though.

 

[PowerTube44]

They'll totally nail it eventually. Let the technology get up to maybe 128 bits or so. It's getting really close.

 

[Tatzmann]

They need 666 Qubits to enter the competition.

And then its all just Roborock.

Fuck that, go AC/DC and shake their appletree.

 

[GabrielRaphael]

They'll totally nail it eventually. Let the technology get up to maybe 128 bits or so. It's getting really close.

Not sure, for me to just get tones and feel i went through hoops of plugins before/ after the heads, then irs,

in the DAW/mac
Channel strip
-gain
-compressor
-eq
—optional crybaby if not already before the audio i/o,
—-the amp (head only)
—the IR loader

Channel strip bus send to bus/aux as parallel channel for levels or to double guitar, this has a
-comp or
-could be SSL/AMEK/FOCUSRIT/Strip.
Channel strip out to master bus/aux with
-comp,
-eq,
-limiter

then the time i spent to a/b cause match eq, the amp sims tones where faithful but they are just one layer compared to real amps as they have way more depth, sustain, punch, feedback and easier to simply eq in a DAW.

with a normal (fx-amp) the Channel strip is simple
-gain
-compressor
-eq

Channel strip send to parallel bus/aux with comp for additional levels in the mix
Channel strip out is to main out (no additional strip needed)

 

[PowerTube44]

Not sure, for me to just get tones and feel i went through hoops of plugins before/ after the heads, then irs,

in the DAW/mac
Channel strip
-gain
-compressor
-eq
—optional crybaby if not already before the audio i/o,
—-the amp (head only)
—the IR loader

Channel strip bus send to bus/aux as parallel channel for levels or to double guitar, this has a
-comp or
-could be SSL/AMEK/FOCUSRIT/Strip.
Channel strip out to master bus/aux with
-comp,
-eq,
-limiter

then the time i spent to a/b cause match eq, the amp sims tones where faithful but they are just one layer compared to real amps as they have way more depth, sustain, punch, feedback and easier to simply eq in a DAW.

with a normal (fx-amp) the Channel strip is simple
-gain
-compressor
-eq

Channel strip send to parallel bus/aux with comp for additional levels in the mix
Channel strip out is to main out (no additional strip needed)

Yeah, it's still lacking in many ways, but I believe they'll nail it someday. Most modeling is "close but not quite." Most modeling processors allow you to have a patch for Overdrive, Chorus, Compressor, all the common things, plus two additional effects, while a real pedalboard has no such limits. Plus, the effect emulations are never quite the real thing.

For example, the Metal Zone emulation on my GT-100 is nowhere near the real thing. Neither is the GE-7 EQ, and these are Boss' own effects. I can only assume that the others are lacking, as well, since I don't own the other pedals.

But as processors get more powerful, I think they'll someday get there.

 

[RCM 800]

The recordings sound good but I think the missing link for what you are looking for is the interaction of the guitar in a room with a speaker. You reach that certain volume point and the guitar and speaker take on a life of their own. That right on the edge of being out of control feedback and the guitar feeding on it and you can feel it under your fingers. Im no expert but maybe you could run a real speaker and record DI at the same time or perhaps a mix of the two?

 

[Michael Roe]

Ditch all the plugins and just get a Fractal - FM3, FM9 or the best AXE FX III.
With plugins you have to deal with your audio interface first. That right there is the biggest problem for not being able to nail the tone/feel etc. The keyword here is LATENCY.
There is no latency with the Axe FX III, none! There is one caveat being a modeler. It has less noise than the real deal.
Getting feedback will be really hard going through an interface then using monitors or headphones.
You can though, run a signal from the Fractal to your interface and DAW or just use the Fractal as your interface, and then run a parallel signal (with no IR) to a power amp and cab in the room to get feedback.
I'm a tube amp snob for the past 30 years. I know all about the feel and tone of a roaring Marshall or other tube amps. I have tried countless software and hardware modelers and even a Kemper. They all are much more inferior to the Fractal gear. Keep in mind that Fractal gear is not sold in stores so you don't get all the hyped review videos.
The Fractal Axe Fx III can get just about any Marshall tone you can think of.
I got my Axe Fx III about a year ago kind of on a whim. I had heard about them and heard the horror stories how they are a tweaking nightmare etc. I found it to be exactly opposite of that! Yes, you can tweak! But, the coolest thing is that you can tweak things that most can not.
For instance all of these and the outcome is exactly like a real amp:
adjust the bias
swap tube types or brands
adjust negative feedback
adjust impedance curves
mod your amp: add a PPIMV, adjust the bright switch, change the tone stack, add a fat switch etc, etc

Many pros use the Fractal gear. It is obvious why they do. If you get a chance to play with one you will get it why those pros use it real quickly.

So, is modelling there yet? Yes, if you have an Axe FX III it most certainly is.

 

[aro]

Plugins have gotten so good that when AB'ing two audio tracks, one plugin and one tube amp, it's close to impossible to tell what's what. However, you still have a 50% chance to get it right with only two tracks. Take ten tracks, say 1 Plexi plugin and 9 real Plexis, and it's over...

The "soulless" digital stuff has gotten incredibly accurate.

EDIT: My favorite plugin is ReValver BluesMaker '62. I love how you can experiment with component changes in the ReValver circuit. 2nd favorite is S-Gear.

 

[Jamil Ecrire]

I just use AmpliTube (4&5) and it sounds pretty spot on for my JTM45, Silver Jubilee, and JVM410. I'm assuming the JCM900, etc are pretty spot on too.

So cheapo Focusrite USB > AmplTube > PreSonus One (not necessary) > JBL Monitors, sounds as good as when I mike my amps up with 1000x less hassle. I'm a noob though so take it all with a grain of salt O

 

[uselessoldman]

As stated above you cannot for one second expect a modeller or sim hardware/app to recreate both the original amp and cab tone? Its physically and I guess more accurately scientifically impossible. Why do people use modellers like Kempers? Cos there lazy and its about perception all for show not a "live" gig it saves a fortune on tour not lumping Marshall stacks about from City to City and in the end they pump the volume out through a venue PA so why bother trying? I know a few touring bands who still have Marshall Stacks on stage, you know what, there EMPTY shells cos it looks cool !!! Most touring bands today care about their own and the roadies health and safety, the volume is directed at the crowd, they themselves use in ear gear or low wattage stage monitors. They do it for a good reason, to preserve their own hearing and backs !!!! From my own experience and experiments, the best solution is to use the modellers/sims to generate the amp tone but then use power amps and original guitar speakers like V30s G12Ts Greens. For one, power amps like QSC Crown etc are significantly more reliable than tube amps cheaper to maintain and can deliver a super powerful wattage and can drive numerous stacks with one decent amp !! A QSC RMX 2450 can drive 2 full stacks of Marshalls on its own in stereo one either side !! But the truth is simple for 90% of the listening public its good enough, there know no better !! That is why in my 2x12s I have a G12T one side and a V30 in the other in a 4x12 I use crossed pairs in ply cabs cos there the lightest to lump about.

 

[GabrielRaphael]

As stated above you cannot for one second expect a modeller or sim hardware/app to recreate both the original amp and cab tone? Its physically and I guess more accurately scientifically impossible. Why do people use modellers like Kempers? Cos there lazy and its about perception all for show not a "live" gig it saves a fortune on tour not lumping Marshall stacks about from City to City and in the end they pump the volume out through a venue PA so why bother trying? I know a few touring bands who still have Marshall Stacks on stage, you know what, there EMPTY shells cos it looks cool !!! Most touring bands today care about their own and the roadies health and safety, the volume is directed at the crowd, they themselves use in ear gear or low wattage stage monitors. They do it for a good reason, to preserve their own hearing and backs !!!! From my own experience and experiments, the best solution is to use the modellers/sims to generate the amp tone but then use power amps and original guitar speakers like V30s G12Ts Greens. For one, power amps like QSC Crown etc are significantly more reliable than tube amps cheaper to maintain and can deliver a super powerful wattage and can drive numerous stacks with one decent amp !! A QSC RMX 2450 can drive 2 full stacks of Marshalls on its own in stereo one either side !! But the truth is simple for 90% of the listening public its good enough, there know no better !! That is why in my 2x12s I have a G12T one side and a V30 in the other in a 4x12 I use crossed pairs in ply cabs cos there the lightest to lump about.

The sims do sound faithful but its true that they have limitations, playing very basic material can be done but if your into Eddie Van Hallen, Randy Rhoads, Steve Morse etc you need a real amp if you want to interact with one.

 

[SLA]

The only sim that get close in sound and feeling for me is s-gear. Tried lots of ampsims and referenced against real 2203/2204 and plexi.

 

[GabrielRaphael]

The only sim that get close in sound and feeling for me is s-gear. Tried lots of ampsims and referenced against real 2203/2204 and plexi.

Well im gonna share a amazing discovery using the softube marshalls, TH-U and many more combinations yet with one simple pedal—-> the sd-1 (also software version)…i posted sone examples with IRs but went a whole level beyond with the Marshall tones of all those amps..im now making a video about it too.
-amp sims
-boss sd-1 with marshall dsl, jvm, jcm, classic (1w to 100w) heads and my 4x12 greenbacks into audio i/o, cpu…incredible feedback and all feel great playing and listening back.

-re amping with ipad or cpu, i/o (1w to 100w) heads with my 4x12 greenbacks with sd1 into audio i/o, cpu…

-i also gound out that the best jcm800 mod/pedal set is BluGuitar AMP1 IRIDIUM with a BluBox Speaker Emulator IR pedal., sounds identical through the live board.

then i compare the exact same amps in sim versions, i nailed them all but the feedback, even the irs!
i have been using the softube acoustic feedback but i hear bluecats is best..but seriously, if you want feedback from a 12inch cone you need a 12 inch cone, then the right cabinet form facto, same with feedback from stage monitors.
,
so im looking into this s gear, thanks!

 

[SLA]

Good luck, download the free demo and the free presets and try it out. Most sims have a hard time getting the marshall semi crunch like early ac dc but i could do it with s-gear. Its very dynamic and reacts naturally to real pedals also. Im just played thru the ready presets and took them i liked, used the ears more than the descriptions.

Other than that..the new marshall studios are great..just saying..got the classic and the vintage and sold my ol 2204..
Best luck

 

[SLA]

Oh..the sd-1 is really on of the best pedals for marshalls, agree in that also heard good things about the blue-stuff

 

[saxon68]

Use the tools that get the job done, make you want to play, and put a smile on your face when you jam.

My last band (6 months ago) I was using my Marshall tube Half stack with 1960a, heavy lugging the head around, and then I got a Helix again, with the Headrush 108.

Brought it into practice and we jammed an hour or so and lead guy noticed the helix and 108, asked if that’s what I was using, he’d thought I was using the Marshall.

He’s a tube amp guy also, and he liked it enough that he got the 108 as well, using it with PODGo.

I’ve got the JVM410H halfstack, the Helix, the FM3, and the newest acquisition is the Bluguitar Iridium. That Iridium, straight into the 1960A is the closest sound AND feel to a GOOD JCM800 that I’ve ever played.

My buddy has a JCM800 and I dunno what’s wrong with it, but it’s never sounded right to me, and no matter what I’ve played on he’s always said I sound more like a Marshall than his Marshall.

So now it’s Iridium for me with the 1960A, until I find a good vertical 2x12. I’ll use Helix or Fractal with it for effects when I think I need more than my drop or SD1.
May get a captor or something like that for an IR loader and send a direct feed to FOH.

Anyhow, question for OP, when you say “sim” do you mean computer plug-in, modeler, profiler, SS amp, and or Bluguitar Iridium (which is technically tube pre with a class D power amp), or all of the above, meaning “anything that tries to sound like a Marshall as we are familiar with them”?

 

[GabrielRaphael]

Use the tools that get the job done, make you want to play, and put a smile on your face when you jam.

My last band (6 months ago) I was using my Marshall tube Half stack with 1960a, heavy lugging the head around, and then I got a Helix again, with the Headrush 108.

Brought it into practice and we jammed an hour or so and lead guy noticed the helix and 108, asked if that’s what I was using, he’d thought I was using the Marshall.

He’s a tube amp guy also, and he liked it enough that he got the 108 as well, using it with PODGo.

I’ve got the JVM410H halfstack, the Helix, the FM3, and the newest acquisition is the Bluguitar Iridium. That Iridium, straight into the 1960A is the closest sound AND feel to a GOOD JCM800 that I’ve ever played.

My buddy has a JCM800 and I dunno what’s wrong with it, but it’s never sounded right to me, and no matter what I’ve played on he’s always said I sound more like a Marshall than his Marshall.

Anyhow, Iridium for me with the 1960A, until I find a good vertical 2x12. I’ll use Helix or Fractal with it for effects when I think I need more than my drop or SD1.
May get a captor or something like that for an IR loader and send a direct feed to FOH.

Ok now we are talking a Marshall man here, im in the EU and whenever in the UK n Germany i see many Marshall sold at great prices.
everything suggested here works with any marshall from 1w to 100w, plexi/dsl/studio series 20/40w.

my tests to get the high gain always includes a asymmetrical clipping over drive such as Boss DS-1, very few pedals are made this way, roughly a handful., the symmetrical clipping pedals are great for none marshall amps and especially single coiled guitars.

the reason you or any marshall user will want an asymmetrical clipping pedal is because they boost all frequencies at once as to only scooping the mids (optional low or high mids but not both) like (tube screamer, ts808 etc) symmetrical clipping pedals do…which means that You will need to tweak your head/amp’s treble bass etc and once you shut your symmetrical clipping pedal off your amp will sound completely different., Which explains why a lot of heavy metal players add an EQ after a tube screamer etc to help boost whatever frequencies they want to hear before the head..but do correct me if im wrong on this subject of boosting marshall tones.

Players like Kerry King use EQ as a boost But in order to get the classic crunch to grind and sparkle do you need an Asymmetric clipping overdrive pedal like the Boss DS -1, it is like as if it becomes part of the amp and if you want to add another channel to a Marshall (example a plexi 50w) them a preamp pedal like a Friedman BE OD or a super cheaper clone of it like the JOYO UZI 03 works very well with any marshall (plexi) and even 2203/2204/2550 if you want more channels like a super high gain JVM 410h.., all these methods before the amps get the same results, punch, gain And most of all the sweet spot while keeping the amps Character (plexi-jcm-jvm-etc)

as for cabs i prefer the closed slanted 4x12 with greenbacks, they help pump air from the amp tightly., i have this but im thinking of combining creambacks., but modulers?

as for modulars i found out that tif you plug into a ds-1, then use a AMP1 with the classic marshall jcm800 setting by passing everything else internally (drive, cabs etc) you cant tell it apart from a resl one in a blind test!

in-addition to the amp1 try this as live rig:
-Guitar
-sd-1
-preamp pedal (optional) 2nd channel drive
-amp1 (by passing everything internally)

cab or direct
-to cabs mic’d to live house board or
-blubox pedal to live house board or
-iconclast pedal by neunaber (creats neg feedback like real amp/cabs) to live house board
-ir loader you use then to live house board

As for my sim tests here my new tests are night and day since last week.
i can get the same results as my jcm800 and or the amp1 or by just plugging my les paul into an
-audio interface,
-then in my daw i have a channel strip with
_compressor
_Overdrive: the plug-in alliance yellowed pedal (its a assymetrical clipping clone of the ds-1)
_Marshall based Sim with cabs bypassed, (softube-neural dsp-nimbrini audi—TH-U etc)
_Then a IR loader plug with a 4 x 12 celestion green back cab setting closed and open.

the main tones iam discussing here are based on a jcm800 2203 straight classic ac-dc crunch with guitar vol control to high gain overdrive using a ds-1