Axe FX, with or without "real" amps...

[zachman]

I don't envy you guys who have that "certain experience" so deeply ingrained in you that you would willingly put up with the myriad inconveniences of big, old amp rigs for it. I never knew that experience, so I will never miss it, and boy am I grateful!

Right on... As the saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss", and there's truth in that, just not the WHOLE truth.

Assuming you grow as a player, and as a writer, and as a performer, you may find that your goals and preferences change as a result, leading you to some of the same conclusions that the "experienced" have arrived at.

Just a thought, some of us don't do it because we, "have that "certain experience" so deeply ingrained in you that you would willingly put up with the myriad inconveniences of big, old amp rigs for it"-- Rather because

1. We selected the gear we use based on OUR prerequisites, which often pales in comparison to a drummer with a large drum set or a keyboard player's rig

2. Most of us w/ the big gear, have other gear too-- for smaller venues, and/or sonic considerations

3. Anything worth doing, is worth doing well, and so it is in keeping with that set of ethics that we take whatever gear it takes, to do our BEST-- within the obvious logistical considerations/constraints of a given gig, RATHER than merely using the bare minimum essentials as an ALWAYS approach, we tend to approach which gear we're going to use on a case by case basis.

 

[johnfv]

Raw and unpolished. I did have a recorder running, that's my style

LKG Live 12-21-13 | John Viehweg

 

[zachman]

Raw and unpolished. I did have a recorder running, that's my style

LKG Live 12-21-13 | John Viehweg

NICE! and Great recording too!

 

[dptone5]

Sounds great John. Excellent thread and thanks for posting man!

DP

 

[johnfv]

I need to give the Axe another shot alone, this time I'll try power amp into guitar cabs (as opposed to the full range speakers I tried before). But, so far nothing has compared to the sound of real amps up close and personal. This compact 2 amp rig worked great for how small it is. The Axe FX is in front for fx and switching. Ceriatone TW Liverpool clone into EV 1x12 Thiele cab for dirty, Pignose G40V for clean. As I mentioned in Alvin's G40V thread, I swapped all the preamp tubes in the Pignose for low gain to get a good clean tone: 12AY7>12AU7>12AT7.

The Morris amp on the right with 2x12 cab was Lance's rig for the night.

 

[S.A.T.O.]

Sounds excellent!

 

[zslane]

Anything worth doing, is worth doing well, and so it is in keeping with that set of ethics that we take whatever gear it takes, to do our BEST--

Fair enough. I think the question of how we decide what gear is "best" is an interesting one. I own three all-valve Marshall amps and a 1960A cab, gear that just about anyone in these forums would love to plug into. But ever since acquiring an Axe Fx, those amps have only been switched on--once or twice a year--to make sure they still work. There is nothing about them that makes them the best choice for anything I might do musically. And I say that as someone who grew up idolizing all the same iconic rock artists as everyone else around here.

As someone who never became a gigging musician, I have no affinity for any particular rig from Dayes Of Yore, and I think that puts me in a seat of greater objectivity. I don't ever find myself categorizing, for instance, a visceral stage sensation as a musical tool. I can, however, say with confidence that I've been to plenty of shows where the stage tone the guitarist seemed to be in love with didn't translate into a satisfying musical experience as an audience member. I think musicians need to be careful about how much they rely on the raw sensations ("experiences") they get from their gear in assessing the quality of the musical product they are delivering to an audience.

 

[johnfv]

...As someone who never became a gigging musician, I have no affinity for any particular rig from Dayes Of Yore, and I think that puts me in a seat of greater objectivity...

zslane, I'd be curious to hear more about how you use your Axe. Home use or recording only?
For me, it's all about matching the rig to the gig (or recording or whatever). I've mentioned there are many gigs where I use the Axe direct into the mixer and monitor through a wedge. I've spent a lot of years as a recording engineer and know how difficult it can be to get a recorded (or FOH) tone that's better than what the Axe provides out of the box. I created this thread because I really thought I was going to use the Axe alone for this gig. But as good as the Axe is, when I went for similar tones with the real amps, it sounded much better. It's the difference between the real thing and a simulation, a very good simulation but still a simulation. I find for the effects and switching, the Axe is darn near indistinguishable from the massive rack I used in "days of yore". For this gig, I decided I wanted the best possible tone on stage and in the small club environment that is also the house - literally guitars are not in the PA. For me the Axe in front of real amps is a great rig and that was a significant part of my justification for shelling out 2 grand for the Axe. That said, I do want to experiment more with Axe>power amp>guitar cabs, I would love to get a tone I am truly satisfied with and not have to drag the amps around. YMMV...

 

[zslane]

I use mine exclusively for recording, experimenting, and practicing.

I am keenly aware of the differences between a modeler and an actual tube amp driving a guitar cab. There are fundamental differences in the physics of the two scenarios that almost preclude exact replication. I am not so much curious about the differences between the two as I am about why these particular differences matter so much to guitarists. I feel confident in stating that the differences don't matter to audiences.

The question, at least in my mind, then becomes one of why it is so important for the performer to have a setup so particular in its details that their performance would be adversely affected if the peculiarities of the physical sensations (as opposed to the musicality and texture of the tone) created by the gear are different, or largely absent. But as I said, I was never blessed with the opportunity to tour, and so I never acquired an emotional or psychological dependence on that "amp in the room" feel everyone talks about. I only care about delivering a tone as close to a recorded studio tone as possible. A modeler like the Axe Fx is designed to sound that way; Marshall stacks never were. The mic and room conditions of the studio can't be reasonably duplicated on stage, but a modeler can generate that sound by simply calling up the appropriate preset.

I've always maintained that audiences want a band's tone to match the recordings they buy and listen to, but want it delivered through a live performance that includes improvisation and new arrangements that make the live experience unique. While I always thrilled at seeing my heroes play on stage (Eddie, Angus, Randy, etc.), I was almost always disappointed with how utterly different--and usually bad--the live sound was compared to the records I loved so much. The idea that the live sound should be different from the recorded sound is misguided in my view; it is a by-product of a bygone era in which delivering the studio sound was patently impractical. With digital modelers like the Axe Fx, we no longer live under those technological limitations, at least not at venues with decent FOH sound.

 

[johnfv]

...The question, at least in my mind, then becomes one of why it is so important for the performer to have a setup so particular in its details that their performance would be adversely affected...

I don't know that I've heard anyone say their performance is "adversely affected". I've always played my best, whatever gear I am playing through. That said, if something sounds clearly better to me, why would I not want to use that? Your point about what ends up on a recording or FOH is valid, the farther you are removed from the actual instrument or amp, the more the subtle variations get lost. A real acoustic guitar sounds nothing like the DI pickup thing that "acoustic" guitars have become in many recordings. I'll come back to the Leslie example: ever heard one up close? NO simulation I've heard comes close. I'm a big fan of the Axe FX II but great simulations do not render the originals obsolete. Again, YMMV. That's the beauty of it, we can all do whatever works best for each of us.

 

[SeanMichael]

Man, I got to do some setup work for Neil Zaza when he came to town, even got to meet him (Very nice guy, by the way), and he had something like this... If it wasn't AxeFx it was something very similar. The way he runs it, is no amps at all, just this rack unit, and a MIDI board to scroll through his sounds. It sounds awesome though, even without an amp. He just runs it through the PA.

 

[zslane]

I don't know that I've heard anyone say their performance is "adversely affected".

Many online discussions that start out focusing on tone often drift into the arena of purely psychological factors that, because they affect the mood of the musician, can ostensibly impact performance, positively or adversely depending on the situation. To my mind, issues surrounding the "amp in the room" phenomenon fall into this category. Some guys act like it is so important to them that they just wouldn't play as well without it.

I've always played my best, whatever gear I am playing through. That said, if something sounds clearly better to me, why would I not want to use that?

No argument here, particularly when the question is reframed such that we're now talking about something that sounds "clearly better," rather than "really close but not exactly the same." Again, the question I have is whether the old setup actually sounds noticeably better, or merely wins by way of familiarity. No offense, but my three decades of experience with rock concerts, as an audience member, has led me to be quite skeptical of a lot of bands' judgment of their own live sound.

 

[zachman]

Fair enough. I think the question of how we decide what gear is "best" is an interesting one. I own three all-valve Marshall amps and a 1960A cab, gear that just about anyone in these forums would love to plug into. But ever since acquiring an Axe Fx, those amps have only been switched on--once or twice a year--to make sure they still work. There is nothing about them that makes them the best choice for anything I might do musically.

The Axe is a very powerful tool. Congrats on finding a solution that works to "Your" satisfaction.

In my world, the type of "valve amps" you have which, "have only been switched on--once or twice a year", are called "rentals"-- and are used for that purpose, and were it not for rental income, would be liquidated, and wouldn't be a part of my "personal/professional" rig.

And I say that as someone who grew up idolizing all the same iconic rock artists as everyone else around here.

As someone who never became a gigging musician, I have no affinity for any particular rig from Dayes Of Yore, and I think that puts me in a seat of greater objectivity.

The other way of looking at it is, it highlights your limited amount of experience-- using various rigs in various settings. Not having 1st hand experience using the gear all of the modelers attempt to emulate, limits one's abilities to KNOW- if it's close or not. More importantly imo-- Just knowing how to run the gear, and program it (Engineering)-- to achieve the tonal goals is a good skill set to possess.

I don't ever find myself categorizing, for instance, a visceral stage sensation as a musical tool.

Really? I have always performed better, when inspired with the results/"visceral stage sensation" from my preferred gear, which does (more times than not) translate into the music being performed better.

I can, however, say with confidence that I've been to plenty of shows where the stage tone the guitarist seemed to be in love with didn't translate into a satisfying musical experience as an audience member.

Yes, a sound man or PA can make or break ANY guitarists/bands sonic goals, regardless of gear selection.

I think musicians need to be careful about how much they rely on the raw sensations ("experiences") they get from their gear in assessing the quality of the musical product they are delivering to an audience.

The thing is: It has to "start" w/ the guitarist providing his/her sounds through their stage rig. It's the soundman's job to amplify, mix, and/or record/capture it properly.

Most so called sound guys in the typical club scene, aren't even qualified to turn on my radio, and aren't in that position because they're qualified-- rather because they were available at the time.

My $.02

 

[zachman]

Again, the question I have is whether the old setup actually sounds noticeably better, or merely wins by way of familiarity.

Yes, my old big rig setup sounds better AND the familiarity it provides is the fact that it's consistently giving me what I "expect". It's the expectations that often separate average results from great ones. When using other gear, I am always happy with my results, but comparatively, hear what is missing by contrast when NOT using the crazy rig. No surprise here though. When building and programming SEVERAL of my friends and customers Axe Rigs, we got them sounding KILLER!!!, BUT when they wanted to do A/B testing w/ my "Old" rig, they were ALL tripping over themselves when they couldn't get the result of my "Old" rig. Again, no surprise here.

No offense, but my three decades of experience with rock concerts, as an audience member, has led me to be quite skeptical of a lot of bands' judgment of their own live sound.

None taken... and you're correct. My 3+ decades of playing concerts has shown me that not everyone is going to share a given opinion, (Especially among guitarists, who likely will engage in the, "IF it were ME, I would've done this or that, or wouldn't have done this or that").

It reminds me of the. "how many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?" joke. Answer: 99 One to change the light bulb, and the other 98 to stand around with their arms crossed discussing how they could've done it better.

 

[zslane]

When building and programming SEVERAL of my friends and customers Axe Rigs, we got them sounding KILLER!!!, BUT when they wanted to do A/B testing w/ my "Old" rig, they were ALL tripping over themselves when they couldn't get the result of my "Old" rig. Again, no surprise here.

Just out of curiosity, how easy is it to setup your old rig for IEMs?

 

[zachman]

Just out of curiosity, how easy is it to setup your old rig for IEMs?

Depends on the soundman, and monitor mix layout/configuration of the PA-- it's a simple as any other rig/ "normal setup", otherwise.

The IEM's are just replacements for floor wedges, and/or side fills, so it's exactly the same process.



Lots of options though...

 

[johnfv]

Cross posting here: another live clip from our recent gig with my compact 2 amp rig:
LKG Live 12-21-13 | John Viehweg

 

[johnfv]

I had a bit of a revelation on this last night, have done some testing today and very satisfied with the results. As I have documented in this thread, while I do use the Axe direct into the PA for a lot of gigs, I have struggled to get an on stage tone that will compete with real amps. I've tried full range speakers (powered and unpowered with an amp) and various guitar cabinets with a power amp. I've tried single amp and two amp rigs (amp models that is). Ultimately, it always sounded better in front of tube amps so for some gigs I've been using the Axe for effects only with a 2 amp clean/dirty amp setup. Still, I was hoping to get down to a smaller, quieter rig and I kept wondering if the various solid state power amps I was using might be part of the problem (although IMO the MosValve I have is pretty good).

Finally I realized the best "power amps" for guitar I currently have are my various old school Fender style amps: Showman, Tweed Twin and Prinzetone. What if I set the amp for clean and use the Axe to generate gain/overdrive? I tried using an amp model in front as a test but it was way too bright. Next I tried some OD pedal models and it was getting better, finally I hit on the BK Butler Tube Driver models and VOILA! I had a damn good dirty tone. Tweaked it a bit for dirty, crunchy and lead programs (in addition to clean). Currently I'm using my 16 watt Prinzetone so I'm making the output tubes work for a bit of natural compression and OD at higher levels. Still plenty of headroom for nice loud clean tones and lead boost when I need it. I'm thinking this will make a killer compact rig, another tool to have for the right gig. At a larger venue I could use one of the higher wattage amps. Most importantly, the tone truly sounds GREAT. For me the Tube OD model in front of a real amp is way more convincing than the amp models into a power amp.

 

[johnfv]

Reviving this old thread to post another example where I am combining the Axe FX II for effects only with a "real" amp. I'm prepping for another gig with the Lance Keltner Group this week and doing a little tweaking. I'm using the Axe in front of my JVM410HJS with the Rocktron Midi Raider for switching. For me one big advantage of the JS over the normal JVM is the expanded Midi capability, for example I assign just master volume controls to a dedicated controller switch. That way no matter what tone I'm using from clean to high gain, I can kick in a master volume "solo boost" easily. I'd still prefer the tone of a two amp rig but this works very well and is much more manageable with a single head and cab. I was using my smallest JCA cab for testing, I'll use my '80s 1936 cab for the gig.

 

[alhayesmusic]

Being from Austin, my question is where are you playing? That may decide for you.