bedroom vol, cranked sound?

[ITburst]

Why does everyone keep their Marshall’s in their bedrooms anyway…

But seriously, I have been thinking about an attenuator since buying my Dsl20hr also. But after weeks or months of getting to know the amp I find I am getting better and better at finding a very acceptable tone without an attenuator. One that is at a very reasonable db level.

First off, cranking the gain on the Ultra channel is just asking for fizz, in my humble opinion. Where I’m at now is the volume around 2.5 to 3 and the gain anywhere from 2 to 6, depending on my mood. If that’s too loud (bedroom volume being subjective) roll the pots back on your guitar. It’s working rather well for me. Toss in some drive pedals to taste. The Ultra is way to high gain for me personally and I have a ECC823 on its way (thanks for the tip fitz!) so we shall see where that gets me.

And do not over look the importance of getting the cones moving. There is no attenuator which will replace that. The “Marshall Sound” was never achieved without the cones moving massive amounts of air.

I do still have thoughts of at least trying an attenuator but the ones I would trust are pricey, like the Rock Crusher I keep eyeing. I find it difficult to spend more than what I paid for the amp for a attenuator and maybe be disappointed.

Long story, short (too late) I’m starting to find really sweet tones by just moving the knobs around without attenuation.

 

[jagrenet]

I know "bedroom level" is subjective, but I never had a problem with a DSL getting to what I considered a "bedroom level"

Agreed. My DSLs hhave never had a problem achieving superior bad ass tones at "bedroom" level.

 

[scozz]

………..cranking the gain on the Ultra channel is just asking for fizz, in my humble opinion. ……..

I didn’t suggest cranking the gain, maybe someone else did, but I was referring to the power section. Pushing the power tubes not the preamp tubes. (Green channel)

But I wasn’t clear though, I was referring only to the Dsl20’s clean channel, and I completely left that out of my post!

That sometimes, (ahem), happens at my age,…

 

[bassmastermkii]

And THAT is why I've never bothered with trying to attenuate. Afraid to open that can of worms.

I used to think that but was messing my Axe-Fx recto patch and it thumps like a 4x12 through monitors at bedroom volume. The palm mutes go “whomp” as an after touch in the bass, just like the actual amp. Honestly, one of my fav sounds in all of rock and roll.

Now, is this an economical solution? No.
IMHO, it can be done but at somewhere between 2.5-$3k.

Never used an attenuator that didn’t tone suck but I haven’t used the Ox, which I feel is redundant when I have a competent modeler already.

 

[NewReligion]

Here is my master volume at a whisper. I modded the amp to high gain. The guitar is plugged straight in with no over drive pedal.

The tone remains the same at stage level just moving a lot more air.

 

[Ralf_M.]

Hi,


for both heavy distortion or chugging guitars at very low volumes, I bought a BluGuitar Amp1 Iridium edition and a Marshall MX122R.
It does sound quite alright for this purpose when playing active humbuckers, but disgusting with passive single coils at any volume. It does sound disgusting when using an overdrive stomp box, but fortunately it isn't needed. Clean sounds are disgusting, too. IMO for distorted sounds it does sound better than any amp emulation when using the mentioned active humbuckers. I've spend way too much money in a lot of amp emulations. I even made my own impulse responses to no avail. While the BluGuitar Amp1 Iridium edition has got a build-in power soak, I don't use it. I wonder if replacing the speaker of the Marshall MX122R would gain something to improve the sound at very low volumes. However, the sound as is, is the best distorted low volume sound I ever got, but I suspect that this is the only thing the BluGuitar Amp1 Iridium edition is good for. Btw. the build-in "record me without microphones" feature does sound terrible. Recordings with microphones are still the best.


Regards,
Ralf

 

[G the wildman]

I agree with @fitz - "there's no way to replicate speakers movin' air..."

That is FACT.

I totally agree.

Even with good attenuation, once the volume gets low. Overdrive begins to sound like a tin of angry bees.

Even my ToneKing loses the fatness on full attenuation. But for practice your ear gets used to it.

G

 

[manicguitarist]

Here's my take on this - as I went through this years ago.
Playing live I used (over the years) JCM800, then JCM900, then TSL100 then finally a JVM - all full stack. Cos nothing says "ready to rock" more than a full stack in a small venue.
Anyways - I tried small stacks, digital amps, modelling amps and nothing worked.
What I realised eventually is that for bedroom you need a different sound to live.
If you use a live tone in your bedroom it will sound thin and nasty and if you use a good bedroom tone live then you'll get a wall of mush coupled possibly with a load of microphonic feedback.

So - I bought another JCM (this time the 50W combo) - and I just use a great deal more gain along with mid and bass than I do live. It is almost impossible to get the same tone at lower volumes by just turning the volume down.

 

[losrack]

I have a Plexi 1959 SLP ... a loud MF ... and Aracom attenuator, it is a bliss, I can crank all knobs maxed and get a beautiful driven tone out of it ... no pedal is ever gonna give me that, it helps but is just not that pretty.

 

[giblesp]

I have to push my DSL 401 for a bit of oomph.

My JVM 205H has an excellent master control, no need for a power soak.

 

[PelliX]

Yes, later on I'll see if I buy a more accessible attenuator for my budget like the Bugera, or maybe I'll try to build a JohnH.

Skip the Bugeras, they're just as much a tone-soak as a power-soak. The line outputs are even worse. Apart from the noisefloor, you're just as well off using the E-out on a DSL, give or take. The JohnH is a cheap solution that would actually work (and you can tailor it to your own desires). If you want more "options" and/or "luxury", you're going to need to dig deeper into your wallet and look at stuff ranging from a Weber Mass, Rock Crusher, Power Brake (not my fav, but people swear by them) on to Fryette, OX, TAE. At the price of a TAE, you might just as well rent/buy some barnyard and go at it full blast...

 

[Jason Funk]

+1 on an attenuator, but don’t go cheap. I had the same problem as you and couldn’t crank my amp. I bought a cheap attenuator (Bugera PS1) to see if there was any truth to the lore. Works as advertised but found once attenuating down below 70-80% you lose more and more tone the lower you go. Adjusting the amp’s bass/treble can fix most issues. However, after realizing attenuators truly work and are useful I sold it within two weeks to buy a better one (mainly, has it’s own EQ controls). I bought a Weber Mini Mass 100 and wow! While some may same it’s not the same as no attenuator, I can hear all the frequencies and nuances of a cranked tube amp. The response is amazing, much more than just playing the tube amp quieter without an attenuator. Highly recommend one, but make sure it has most of the bells and whistles.

 

[shredgd]

Although I agree the moving speaker/air has its important role in a stage volume tone, one truth nobody mentions is the following:

the one main reason why a good tube amp doesn’t usually sound good at bedroom levels is because the master volume pot is physically set very low. I really mean the position the control is dialed to. It’s not a matter of power capability per se, or a matter of “power tubes breaking up” at higher levels. After building a tube head myself and modding other amps, I can honestly say that’s bullshit.
Any means to be able to put the volume pot to at least 2 to 4 (you don’t have to go very high, a lot of amps sound bad with the master volume pot above 5, IMO) will give you the real tone of that preamp circuit.
The explanation to this is a volume pot set very low for bedroom levels (say 0.5 out of 10 on the dial) works bad in a circuit: it applies a lot of resistance in series to the signal while putting a very tiny resistance from signal to ground. This usually cuts a lot of bass and low mids from the signal, that’s why it makes things fizzy. It also cuts some gain because the following stage (usually the phase inverter tube) doesn’t get that much signal, this is why a Plexi style circuit doesn’t even give you overdrive at low volume.

So your goal is to find a way to be able to raise that damned master volume knob.
-Attenuators obviously work.
-A volume pedal in the effects loop can work as well (and is probably the cheapest attempt one can make): two consecutive volume pots set half-way sound better than one cranked and one dialed almost off, I can assure you. Depending on the effects loop placement in the circuit and quality, you might achieve a very good or “not that good” result with this approach.
-Friedman amps have a 220k/1M fixed voltage divider before their master volume pots. This cuts a bit of volume before the volume pot, so it is probably why they tend to sound better at low volumes than other amps. But of course this would be a mod to be performed by an experienced technician.
-A post phase inverter master volume (PPIMV) is a volume control placed between the phase inverter tube and the power tubes. Although it changes the negative feedback in the power amp section, it allows you to bring the stock master volume up. My DIY Marshall head doesn’t need an attenuator thanks to the PPIMV I wired in it. It allows me to get the best tone I ever played in my life at bedroom levels! Of course, this mod is quite involved and also needs to be performed by an experienced technician.

Have a good day!

Giulio

 

[GustHFS]

Skip the Bugeras, they're just as much a tone-soak as a power-soak. The line outputs are even worse. Apart from the noisefloor, you're just as well off using the E-out on a DSL, give or take. The JohnH is a cheap solution that would actually work (and you can tailor it to your own desires). If you want more "options" and/or "luxury", you're going to need to dig deeper into your wallet and look at stuff ranging from a Weber Mass, Rock Crusher, Power Brake (not my fav, but people swear by them) on to Fryette, OX, TAE. At the price of a TAE, you might just as well rent/buy some barnyard and go at it full blast...

Thanks for the tips, PelliX. But understand that in my case it is completely unfeasible to purchase any of these devices, Fryette, Rivera Rock Crusher, Boss TAE, etc., because many of them cost more or less the same or twice the price of the DSL20HR, so I don't see much sense. Another problem: Here where I live, the price of these devices skyrockets at least double what is charged in the USA or Europe, not counting taxes, shipping, and the fact that the purchasing power here is much lower than in developed countries (minimum wage equivalent to US$ 270). Therefore, any of these attenuators would lead me to have to rent not only barnyards, but entire farms...

Gust

 

[tallcoolone]

The only amps I’ve used that get close to the cranked Marshall sound at low volume no attenuation no pedals are Friedman amps

I will second your statement, I can't believe how good the JJ sounds at low volumes, none of my other amps will get there without help of some kind

What amps do you speak of? Full sized JJ? I can only speak to the Friedmans I have but the Twin Sister and Smallbox need volume to sound their best—no different from a DSL.

 

[fitz]

Skip the Bugeras, they're just as much a tone-soak as a power-soak

Thanks for the tips, PelliX. But understand that in my case it is completely unfeasible to purchase any of these devices, Fryette, Rivera Rock Crusher, Boss TAE, etc., because many of them cost more or less the same or twice the price of the DSL20HR, so I don't see much sense. Another problem: Here where I live, the price of these devices skyrockets at least double what is charged in the USA or Europe, not counting taxes, shipping, and the fact that the purchasing power here is much lower than in developed countries (minimum wage equivalent to US$ 270). Therefore, any of these attenuators would lead me to have to rent not only barnyards, but entire farms...

Gust

Those expensive attenuators are expensive for a reason.
Don't get the Bugera because you can afford it.
The Carl's Speaker Soak is even worse.
Even trying to EQ back in what those L-pad gizmos take out, just leaves you with something you're not going to be happy with.
You'll get better tones by just turning the volume down.
Dirt pedal in front, EQ in the loop.
Add a touch of chorus and/or reverb for ambience, and you'll gat as close to your amp's native loud tones at low volume as possible.

 

[GustHFS]

You'll get better tones by just turning the volume down.
Dirt pedal in front, EQ in the loop.
Add a touch of chorus and/or reverb for ambience, and you'll gat as close to your amp's native loud tones at low volume as possible.

Thanx, fitz!

This is more or less what I've been doing to be able to play cranked at low volumes. That's why I said in my other post that I didn't see much need to use an attenuator in my case. Unfortunately I have to make certain choices and exceptions, so I need to consider that I should go on a budget most of the times. But thanks to you and PelliX I already crossed the Bugera off my wish list

Gust

 

[chocol8]

If you can solder, a DIY reactive load and a cheap low wattage clean power amp will be affordable and better than any cheap or mid-priced attenuators, except for a reactive one you build yourself (see the DIY attenuator thread on this forum).

Cost effective attenuators are not actually cost effective. They are a waste of money. Trust me, I have wasted plenty of money on attention, variable voltage solutions, PPIMV's and a bunch of low wattage amps. The only two solutions I would recommend are a reactive load and a decent modeler.

 

[JohnH]

I hadn't played my '91' LP Studio in over a year, so today I got it out, cleaned it all up and restrung it. Then I fired up the VM combo. LDR mode with detail at 8, body at 5, MV at 6, where it sounds best.

Everybody was out, so I went 'home-loud', with -10.5dB attenuation. It sounded glorious on my favorite Neil Young tunes. I set my neck to single coil for dirty clean, then flick to bridge HB for a rich low-range overdrive dripping with harmonics. At that level, the 30-40W VM is playing like about a 3W amp.

Later on, I wanted to be a bit quieter, so I used -17.5dB and it still sounded great. And this evening, -28dB while my wife was in the next room.

All of these are full-toned and sound great at their own level, not muddy or flat. I wasn't using pedals.

That's how I do 'cranked bedroom tone' with my favourite full-sized amp.

 

[pomod]

I'm sure this has been discussed before so I apologize in advance...I have a JCM 2000 DSL (with effects loop) and a small variety of pedals (including a Boss DS-1). I'm wondering if a power soak of some sort is the only real way to get a full, heavy, overdriven sound at bedroom volumes using my actual 1960 Vintage 4/12 cab. I'm not sure it's even possible, but I'm asking anyway. I'm not looking to spend a fortune, as I just got my head back from being benched (it's sounding very good now) and I'm still recuperating from that expense..lol. thanks in advance.

The short answer is no. If your amp has a master volume it will be just as effective as an attenuator but you will always be missing that punch that comes with the physical movement of air in the room. Mic the cab in an iso box and monitor through headphones is really your best bet at getting that tone but you still won’t have that physical interaction between the speakers and your pickups.