Better attenuator than Hotplates?

[Mrmadd]

I am going to have to aggree on not knowing how to run an amp. My Bugera has very limited tone. Would not buy another. Bugera (boo'g-r-a).
Fender is still top of the heap for boutique tone.
But....
On a Marshall forum, I find it hard to waiste time on any other brand than Marshall.
With that said.........
I purchased 2 brand new Marshall Origin 5 combos. Stereo guitar. You need pedals to get extreme, but overall these little amps have good tone and great options for almost any pratice or studio occasion.
Effects loop and boost switches are a great addition to this little amp. Yeah, your are not diving into sub low frequencies operating an 8" speaker. And, 5 watts can be loud.
This may not be the best bedroom after hours amp, but anyone who is seacrhing for decent tube tone in a small package, Origin 5 gets it done.

 

[Mrmadd]

Great metal tone at controllable volumes comes from a Marshall MG30FX or a 50. Also works great for bedroom players.
No pedals needed.

 

[aberry9475]

No thanks. This is mostly myth. Even 5 watt amps can get very loud. Bigger amps even mildly attenuated sound better than 1-5 watt amps in my 40 years of experience. I like my approach, and use my Axe FX III or Helix if I want whisper volumes through studio monitors or headphones. As I stated in my OP, I attenuate only to improve master volume slope, not to take a raging 100 watt head down to baby in the other room level. Ymmv.

10 years ago I'd agree with you, but I don't feel the same way these days. They've come a long way in making little amps sound big. Maybe not 1-5 watts little, but definitely 20-30 watt range. Friedman JJ Jr., SLO-30, the Marshall studio series, etc. They all sound great. If you must though, there's

Fryette Powerstation 100 (actually a re-amp box with a pair of 6550's)
Toneman Iron King II (uses dual transformer coupling, pretty trick)
Oxbox (if you like digital plug ins n'at)

My top GAS picks but there's so many more. At any rate, I'll probably stick to an unplugged pair of headphones. Cheapest attenuator you can get.

 

[Dean Swindell]

The hotplate was the one out of four I've had that I didn't like. It operates in a weird way and actually caused overdrive when there shouldn't have been any. And it's overpriced. I had a Carl's Custom Aps $60 job that was actually okay but my fave was a Weber Mass 200 I usd to have which is a little better sounding that the Weber Mass 100 I have now. I recommend passing on the Hot Plate.

 

[Relic61]

Bought a Weber Mass 150 5 years ago for my 71 1959 (100 watt non-master 4 hole'r) & the handful of assorted '70's 50 watters &.. I really came to love it & make it part of my regular rig set-up. Point of order / fact, I used it to knock volume down just a bit so I could get the power tubes (EL34) cooking & working their magic without overpowering the rest of the band.

30-40 years ago this simply would NOT have been an issue and the pure sonic goodness would have been lavishly appreciated but today!!!!.?.?.?.? Geesh huh?? Grab a soft blanket & some fluffy pillows kids cause daddy's firing up the old Marshal 4x12 so toughen up buttercup! lo

Truthfully though, this is also not only real nice in tone (in low attenuation) but also allows a 30 watt greenback to still get spanked hard enough to do what it does so well in sound production, paper flex, actual air movement & in person aural experience.

BTW I also concur with the waste trying to use most attenuation to suppress a 50 or 100 watt amp for bedroom volume playing & or expecting the same experience in sound. Not that ya can't get some cool tone but, it's just obviously going to be different.

The only other serious issue I have with using this attenuator, & others do the same thing btw, is when using boost pedals (clean or dirty) for lead work, ya just don't get the same level of dynamic volume increase or push. Slight attenuation isn't too bad or completely unusable when it comes to lead boost under attenuation but there still is a dramatically noticeable difference from no attenuation boost usage! & that means compensation will need to be made in a band setting!

And that my guitar loving friends can be important to folks not using an actual sound-guy to tweak yo shizit whilst you be play'n.

Word to the mizmomz

 

[Dan Sing]

I want to mention two basic things mattering attenuation and soundperception:

- The human ear and its way of functioning:

• The Fletcher-Munson-effect, which is mentioned in John-H's thread "Simple Attenuators - Design & Testing", but (i believe) not here in this thread:
  The human ear is made in a way that it perceives bass and treble less the less loud it is. Said that: Any reducement of volume will change OUR PERCEPTION of frequencies, think of a natural low-&highcut-eq in our ear becoming stronger the less volume there is. Thus to eq the sound slightly after reducing volume is a must for to hear the same frequency-balance. That's too explaining why so many say the sound turns better with an attenuator, because the many high-gain-devices deliver (too) much bass and treble (explicitly not speaking here of casual compression-effects by an attenuator). Eventually it's all a question of taste. But it all says that eq-ing a volume-reduced sound is not wrong and has biologic causes.

- The speaker and its way of functioning:

• Do we have 1 speakerchassis, 2, or even 4? One and the same speaker is different in its tonal qualities when solo or two (or more) of it mount at the same baffle. Their surface adds and that changes the frequency-range and the effectivity at any frequency; we could say it becomes another, bigger speaker. We cannot conclude from the sound of a Marshall 4X12 Greenback-cab how one Greenback alone will sound.
  
• Musicspeakers and very specially guitarspeakers are made for loudness, since most valve-/tube-amps must be run loud for to get the good sound, and it's not only the pedals and the amp that cause distortion, but too the speaker is a part of the distortion-grade of the sound (!); for legendary vintage-sounds, too the speakers must run at high volume. Now, play such a guitar-speaker at 3/4 volume and it doesn't show this specific break-up points any longer: That changes the sound too and it's a type of change that we cannot compensate by eq or any other trick. In other words: Play not only your amp loud, but too the speaker(s) for to get ALL tonal qualities.
  The only way to achieve this sound at low volume (but the Fletcher-Munson-effect of our ears must in any case be balanced by eq) is to use digital modellers with speaker/cab-emulations: These IRs are recorded at high volume, but via the modeller and a solid-state-amp, this can be reproduced at low volume (just as a Led Zeppelin- or AC/DC-record is not loosing the instruments' distortion only because we reproduce the CD at TV-volume). Or attenuator with lineout -> some speaker-emulating device with your wished speaker/cab -> solid-state-amp -> FRFR-speakers (sound-neutral speakers). As i said, this will not compensate the Fletcher-Munson-effect nor the "air-moving" effects of a guitar-speaker when run in that volume-range it is conceptuated to run (full volume) and mattering cabs: you cannot really replace a 4speaker-cab with a single FRFR-speaker, you cannot really expect from a (for example) line 6 Powercab 112 with a Helix connected to sound (and feel) at full volume exactly like a 4speaker-cab, you would need four Powercabs 112 (or two PC 212) and put them one above the other for to get the same "air-moving" qualities (and still they would not be mount on the same baffle what would be the best).

Said shortly: Reduce the volume and the sound will change because of two causes: Our ears (the Fletcher-Munson-effect) and because the speakers do not more work at their specific "blooming-point" which is at high volume. So volume-reducing represents automatically a soundquality-drop, some can be balanced (by eq-ing), some not. It's always a compromise, perfect in the absolute meaning it cannot be.

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[...] these amps all have "good masters" I still like to attenuate for the reasons I stated above.
Any experiences that may help me out?

For amps with 2 speaker-outs: Connect the attenuator to one of both speaker-outs and the volume in the room is reduced by some db, but without that the sound of the speaker / cab in the other speaker-out is affected too much.

-------

Rapid alternative to attenuators for the case you have some old speakers somewhere in your house that you use not more and that have to the amp corresponding resistance & wattage: Speakers are loud only when they are mount on a baffle (or on a folded baffle, aka box) -- with the pure chassis in the air (not mount in a box or on a baffle), because of the acoustic shorting-effect, bass-frequencies casi disappear totally, mids and highs will still be to hear, but too significantly less loud: Put this speakerchassis vertically in an open fruit-box, cover it with some blankets, connect the speaker to the second speaker-out, that's all. As we still will play loud with the other speaker/cab, we will as good as not perceive the speaker in the fruit-box.

Because i wanted now a line-out, i bought a Bugera PS1 powersoak, put it in the second speakerout of my amp (1959 SLP 100W) and connected my "fruit-cage"-speaker at the attenuator's speaker out. I think it's not allowed to run the Bugera without speaker-load when the volume is turned up. But alas, because the main-volume-knob and the line-out volume-knob are interconnected, i must crank the attenuator's volume for to get a reasonable line-out signal. That's why i connected my fruit-cage-speaker there.

In that matter a question: I often read the Bugera shall be a pure resistive attenuator, but: if there's a speaker connected to it, then it is automatically reactive (and not purely resistive), or do i miss there some technical detail?

 

[Dan Sing]

If you do have a go, I can help with any advice and discussion about our design and how to make it work best for your needs and what parts to get. Many have been built successfully now. They are a very simple robust design, the tricks are all in the exact balance of coil and resistor component values that keeps the tone consistent at all levels. Pre covid, the parts to build a 50W (ie for a nominal 50W amp) version were about $100. Figure a bit more now and if you want to crank your 100W amps. The build is way easier than any amp or stomp box. All the key info is on post 1.

Hello JohnH and thank you for offering the schematics of your attenuators for free. I went to your thread (https://www.marshallforum.com/threads/simple-attenuators-design-and-testing.98285/page-2), but it is very long meanwhile and i have not the time to read this thread entirely. Thus a question: Has one of your attenuators a line-out? If yes, could you please pass me a link to the mattering schematic (or somebody else that knows it)? Effectively i need line-out, true bypass and it has to be for 16 Ohm, casually switchable not for two ohmages, but for two different wattages: 1x for ~75W and one time for 150W.

 

[AndyD]

The good old Marshall power break has to be the most underrated attenuator going. It is brilliant with Marshall’s. The tone is retained as long as you don’t over do the attenuation.

 

[Gunner64]

The tone is retained as long as you don’t over do the attenuation.

Pretty much holds true with attenuation in general..no matter what device. I bet $10 to a dime the guys who say "this ones junk or that ones junk" are attenuating the living piss out of their amps. Used correctly most attenuators will do the job. Used incorrectly you get a pile of mush. Nature of the beast.

Even the reactive loads have treble compensators built in, but still if you max out attenuation you lose highs.

 

[shermanpup]

You're going to get a bunch of answers here... Best is subjective. Having said that, I wouldn't buy cheap Chinese junk like Bugera.. I have an old Scholz Power Soak. Totally rebuilt. I love it... It does what I want it to do with my 2210...

Just a note... I was advised to re-solder the resistor pads after time on the power soaks. A little soldering flux will help re flow the joints. I have a friend that had a power soak when they first came out and he mounted it on the side of his Marshall cabinet with the faceplate aiming towards the ceiling . It melted the faceplate ,so keep the faceplate horizontal like it is supposed to be.

 

[Monstercastle]

Update:
I received my new Mesa Powerhouse 8 Ohm attenuator this week and have given it a quick spin around the block with my DSL20HR into an Avatar Vintage 212 (my main cab) with Creamback M65's. Really happy with it so far, but will wind it up more this weekend when I have more time. I'll also fire up the TC100 Mesa head, JJ Jr., and Mark V:25 with it and push it harder. My new JVM410H won't arrive until Mid-January, and that's the head that will be more permanently attached with this attenuator.

In short, the Mesa is much better than my 8 Ohm Hotplate in overall tone and feel at the 8dB setting, which is my set it and forget it level for what I'm trying to achieve. I typically play at volumes equating to 88-92db in my office space, measured by my trusty old Radio Shack dB meter about a meter from the cab. The only slight advantage that the Hotplate had, was the bass boost switch with boosted low end to compensate for the lower volumes, but the overall tone is better on the Mesa so that outweighs this concern. I can EQ if I need/want to compensate. I think the Mesa was worth the spend and is a nice upgrade.

 

[yafal]

New member here, but long time lurker. Recently rejoined the Marshall family and have a replacement JVM410 inbound. I regretted selling my JVM the entire time since I sold it and corrected that mistake.

I'm considering replacing/upgrading my Hotplates and am looking for feedback from people using attenuators (not re-ampers) for knocking off only 4-8dB from my master volume amps. No longer playing out, and my amps are just used in my home studio. I'm not looking to go from fully cranked amp to "bedroom" volume, nor do I want to get the power tubes cooking, and I realize that there's nothing like pants flapping cranked Marshall through greenbacks stressing.

I have very realistic expectations and simply want the best attenuator, not re-amper. I use an attenuator as a way to get a more gentle slope of the master volume on my amps in my space, and to add in a little low end to compensate for the effects of lower volume. The hotplates are essentially working, but I'm wondering if the newer Mesa attenuators or some others might be more reactive, or sound better than what I have. I did have a Rockcrusher before, but stupidly sold it when I unloaded my JVM, and don't want to just get another Rockcrusher without testing the waters a bit.

Amps are the incoming JVM410H, a Mesa TC-100, Mesa Mark 5:25, Friedman JJ Jr. and a DSL20HR.

Yes, these amps all have "good masters" I still like to attenuate for the reasons I stated above.

Any experiences that may help me out?

Hi. I have a Marshall Power Brake and I think is great. You can reduce by two dB in steps, and down to 10 or 12 you're OK, almost the same sound as if not being attenuated. If you over attenuate, you'll hear the speakers going numb, but it's not the case if down to 12 dB. Hope it helps.

 

[junk notes]

As a guy who uses dual variacs and attenuators to use with Marshall's, (Plexi's, metafaces, and JCM800's) after a plethora of attenuators, I have to aggree with all who posted the PB-100. After the one-wire mod, nothing that I had prior is as transparent.
The cons - no line out.

 

[Lt.Dan]

Powerbrakes, plexi, basketweave.

• Trapland
• Dec 23, 2017

Powerbrakes, 1968 50w plexi, 1968-69 basketweave 412

I like these.

Me too. Because they're built the way a speaker reacts to the output transformer and power tubes. Back EMF.
Maybe newer hotplates do this now ? I don't know.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/back-emf/

 

[ultrataco]

I use a Tone King Ironman II Mini with my SV20h and I like it a lot. I have the amp on 20 watt mode and the ToneKing set to 15/18 db reduction, using the hi/lo switch depending on how I feel on the day. (still kinda loud in my space either way) Obviously not exactly the same as playing full volume but I feel like it preserves the tone, feel, touch sensitivity, etc pretty well.

For comparison, I had a Weber Mini mass for a little while before that but didn't really like it. And before the Weber, I ran the amp unattenuated (usually at 5 watts) for a little while but it was painfully loud so I started looking into attenuators to save my ears. I've been very happy with my Ironman II mini (and my SV20 ).

 

[Whizzinby]

I use a Tone King Ironman II Mini with my SV20h and I like it a lot. I have the amp on 20 watt mode and the ToneKing set to 15/18 db reduction, using the hi/lo switch depending on how I feel on the day. (still kinda loud in my space either way) Obviously not exactly the same as playing full volume but I feel like it preserves the tone, feel, touch sensitivity, etc pretty well.

For comparison, I had a Weber Mini mass for a little while before that but didn't really like it. And before the Weber, I ran the amp unattenuated (usually at 5 watts) for a little while but it was painfully loud so I started looking into attenuators to save my ears. I've been very happy with my Ironman II mini (and my SV20 ).

Out of curiosity what didn’t you like about the Weber? I’m considering either the Weber Mass 200 or doubling the price for a Fryette PS2 or Tone King IronMan II.

 

[Trapland]

Someone please explain the difference between the attenuators and re amping

I have the bad cat which is pretty awesome... I had several hot plates and I have A Tom Sholz attenuator

the problem I run into is I need to use the volume knob (on the guitar) to roll off and on gain... I use it as intended.. the re amp does this well... also there is the need for Rhythm parts to be at full tone...( not volume) and then an increase in volume for a lead at the same tone just boosted, to cut over the band...about as loud as the vocals...

the re amp does this very well as it has separate channels...

So what’s wrong with the re amp?

‘I’d tell you what’s wrong with the bad cat reamper but I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. It does everything right except one.

 

[ultrataco]

Out of curiosity what didn’t you like about the Weber? I’m considering either the Weber Mass 200 or doubling the price for a Fryette PS2 or Tone King IronMan II.

I was using a MiniMass. (50w I think) That was a while ago but from what I remember I just didn't like what it did to the tone and feel for me, at least at the levels I wanted to attenuate down to. I just felt that the Tone King did a better job of preserving the tone and feel with more attenuation. As well it should for costing so much more. But then I have been known to be excessively picky about things sometimes.

I haven't tried any others. I started with the minimass and then upgraded to the tone king and have been happy with it.

One thing to keep in mind with the Ironman II Mini is that it's locked at 8 ohm. (There may be a 16ohm version, I'm not sure) I think the bigger version has an ohm switcher.

 

[JohnH]

Just a word on Weber Mass attenuators, and using them at low volume.

First, we have to acknowledge that this a very popular, well built, good value, well liked product and if it works good then it is good. But, its not perfect in every case and there are a couple of reasons for this for where this happens.

The main one is that the way it dials down to low volume is by using a high-power pot in an L-pad arrangement. As you get low, this starts to present a very low impedance to the speaker, which damps its response, preventing it from developing a natural rise in treble due to its inductance, giving a dull sound, and also reducing the speakers bass resonance. You'll notice this the greatest on amps with less or no negative feedback, for which this effect is a dominant part of their tone, but it will happen to some extent with nearly all tube guitar amps.

Also, they are presented with options for using 16, 8 or 4 ohm amp taps. On all the schematics Ive seen, the basic circuit is based on 16 Ohms, and this is what the internal speaker motor uses. The 8 and 4 options are produced by putting fixed resistors in parallel with the front end. This reduces its action as a reactive attenuator, so with 8 ohm input, it is 50% resistive and at 4 ohm its 75% resistive.

Workarounds: If possible, id suggest to try to work with 16 Ohms on these units. If you need 8 Ohms, Id build in another coil/resistor arrangement at the front to keep the balance

And, (I don't have one and haven't tried this), if playing at low volume, add about a 10 Ohm resistor in series with the speaker, to help with the first issue. at low volume, the amp wont see much difference, but the speaker will respond more naturally

(Or, build a better design for less $!)

 

[harleytech]

Has anyone tried the Boss Tube Amp Expander? Personally I think it is awesome. It offers attenuation, a reactive load AND an effects loop if your doesn't already have one. I saw Doug Doppler do a demo of this on Joe Satriani's JVM and I couldn't believe good it sounded even when heavily attenuated. The reactive load is also configurable for different types of speaker cabs. Definitely worth a look.

That's what I use Boss Tube Amp Expander and I also have an Ironman II - Both are great !