Drum mics

[PelliX]

So, recently I sort of hijacked a thread to get this question in there (and I apologize for that).

Here's the situation. My drummer doesn't currently have much in the way of "recording solutions". I have a home studio and plenty of preamp inputs, etc. I have a few SM57/58's and various other lesser mics for bits and bobs. I know a fair deal about recording and mic usage, but never did anything much in the way of drums/percussion. We play mainly rock 'n' roll, no Phil Collins-esque drum solo masterpieces, nothing too fancy. What would the minimum mic setup / price range look like according to the knowledgeable people here?

The range obviously spans from "$100 7-part no-brand Chinese crap" to 1K p/p valve driven mics. I'm aiming for the lower end of the spectrum as I simply would prefer to invest the big buck elsewhere. However, I also want something that works and works "decently".

How many mics would suffice? I want to be able to play with the levels post recording, so a few channels/mics are certainly required.

Any particular things to pay attention to or avoid?

I've seen some Behringer sets that look like the case they come in is half the price. There are also brilliant multi-K AKG sets and so on.

Your thoughts?

 

[Redguitar]

I would minimally roll with a kik, snare, hat & 2 OH mics.

Not crazy different than my idea of a minimal stage drum mic setup.

EQ inputs to taste.

 

[SmokeyDopey]

I got a set of the lower end Audix mics (F series, f10 and an f12), a set of 4 mics that was like 200 bucks at the time (2004), and I still use them today. The F10s sound thicker and slightly darker than a 57, so for toms and kick they work great.

Hard to go wrong with 57/58s, they can work on pretty much anything.

As to how many and what mics to use, it's hard to say, depending on the type of sound you're going for. Sometimes really dry and close up, sometimes a little further back depending on the genre/mix/etc.

What I find to be most important with drum recording, is to get really good overhead sounds in every aspect. Good cymbals, good distance, best phase alignment with Kick and Snare (I even take my time and use a cable as tape measure to make sure both overhead capsules are the same distance to the snare, and roughly the kick drum). The best picture possible of the drums because that is really hard to fix later on (you can fine tune the time alignment later on, but the best setup possible right from the source). If one of the drum pieces has some sort of issue, you can get away with replacing the sounds either with a trigger or manually editing a sound, either to blend with the original drum, or replacement altogether. You can't really do that with the Overhead picture.

 

[PelliX]

I would minimally roll with a kik, snare, hat & 2 OH mics.

Not crazy different than my idea of a minimal stage drum mic setup.

EQ inputs to taste.

Cool, any recommendations on the mics? Overhead shouldn't be an issue, couple of SM57's should be fine.

I got a set of the lower end Audix mics (F series, f10 and an f12), a set of 4 mics that was like 200 bucks at the time (2004), and I still use them today. The F10s sound thicker and slightly darker than a 57, so for toms and kick they work great.

Ever had the chance to compare them with something "way more expensive"? Just interested in how they hold up. I'm thinking a drum mic has a simple task - how hard can it be? But then that's bordering on "so a pickup is just a magnet and some wire, big deal" territory...

Excellent points on the position, also.

 

[Redguitar]

Cool, any recommendations on the mics? Overhead shouldn't be an issue, couple of SM57's should be fine.



Ever had the chance to compare them with something "way more expensive"? Just interested in how they hold up. I'm thinking a drum mic has a simple task - how hard can it be? But then that's bordering on "so a pickup is just a magnet and some wire, big deal" territory...

Excellent points on the position, also.

I don't recommendations on mics...others might though. I never remember what my drummer's mics were.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

I'm mostly a live engineer these days, but my recommendation would be to start simple, with as few mics as possible, to minimise phasing issues. Also, it force the drummer into being balanced, ie actually hitting skins properly and not thrashing cymbals like the average moron drummer usually does.

So, 1 kick (Shure Beta 52, AKG D112, Audix D6, Electrovoice RE-20 being the usual suspects) and 2 overheads, preferably large diaphragm condensers (a pair of AKG C214 won't break the bank and do a great job at that with minimal fuss).
The trick is to place overheads so that they capture the entire kit AND to make sure (use a tape measure or simply a string) that both are at the same distance from the snare (measure from the mic to the center of the top skin), which in turn ensures you snare will sit in the center of the mix.

Then, and only then, if you feel the need to add more mics (probably starting with a snare spot mic, i which case don't overthink it and go for a Shure SM57), always making sure all mics are in phase (if when you unmute a mic you lose low end on some parts of the kit, you're out of phase).

And unless you're doing disco or your drummer is Stewart Copeland, chances are, you don't really need a hi-hat mic, better skip it (though CRANKING IT in the drummer headphones is a good strategy to make him not hit the damn thing like it owes him money...the take will benefit from it greatly...don't ask me how I know this).

 

[PelliX]

I'm mostly a live engineer these days, but my recommendation would be to start simple, with as few mics as possible, to minimise phasing issues. Also, it force the drummer into being balanced, ie actually hitting skins properly and not thrashing cymbals like the average moron drummer usually does.

They make low noise cymbals, you know.... solid advice, though.

So, 1 kick (Shure Beta 52, AKG D112, Audix D6, Electrovoice RE-20 being the usual suspects) and 2 overheads, preferably large diaphragm condensers (a pair of AKG C214 won't break the bank and do a great job at that with minimal fuss).

At near 400 euros a piece for the C214's... they don't quite break the bank, but they come close to costing what the kit did (IIRC).

The trick is to place overheads so that they capture the entire kit AND to make sure (use a tape measure or simply a string) that both are at the same distance from the snare (measure from the mic to the center of the top skin), which in turn ensures you snare will sit in the center of the mix.

I read about that, indeed. Makes sense.

Then, and only then, if you feel the need to add more mics (probably starting with a snare spot mic, i which case don't overthink it and go for a Shure SM57), always making sure all mics are in phase (if when you unmute a mic you lose low end on some parts of the kit, you're out of phase).

Yup, I know how the recording side works, it's more the "applied to a drumkit" part that's left me with some questions.

And unless you're doing disco or your drummer is Stewart Copeland, chances are, you don't really need a hi-hat mic, better skip it (though CRANKING IT in the drummer headphones is a good strategy to make him not hit the damn thing like it owes him money...the take will benefit from it greatly...don't ask me how I know this).

That made me laugh out loud.

Solid recommendations, appreciated!

 

[Filipe Soares]

samsom offers a honest and cheap kit, in a higher price range I´d go lewitt.

and despite all the rage, glenn fricker has some great videos on drum mics.

 

[SmokeyDopey]

Cool, any recommendations on the mics? Overhead shouldn't be an issue, couple of SM57's should be fine.



Ever had the chance to compare them with something "way more expensive"? Just interested in how they hold up. I'm thinking a drum mic has a simple task - how hard can it be? But then that's bordering on "so a pickup is just a magnet and some wire, big deal" territory...

Excellent points on the position, also.

I think that the most expensive mics make a bigger difference when using them as overheads or rooms.
Better mics will improve the quality of the close mics obviously, but sometimes "better" isn't really appropriate for the sound/style/etc. Sometimes you need something a little grainy or aggressive. 421s (being "better" than a 57) for exampe are a popular tom mic, but personally I don't like them for toms. I find that they get a little spikey in the upper mids, and I end up attenuating that a bit. I love 421s for guitar/bass cabs, though.

I've tried different dynamics mics for the snare. The most expensive I've tried on snare I think may have been a MD441. It is a kick ass mic and it works on pretty much everything, but I still favor the 57 for snare. You just push up the fader and there it is. That's the sound.

The most expensive mics I've used were old U87 and U67 Neumanns, but I've just used them for overheads or rooms.



-edit- There was an instance that I did like 421s on toms, and it was when we were tracking drums to an 8 track Ampex reel to reel. It rounded off thay spike in the upper mids. Sounded great.

 

[aikiguy]

Glynn Johns did it with kick, snare, and two overheads. The way he spaced the overheads was the key.

I have a couple of pairs of Behringer C2 SDC mic’s. They’re great. Although they’re not meant to compete with other mic’s that I know of, I did compare them to the Neumann KM184. The Neumann had more low end, which I would be apt to HPF anyways. The C2’s sound great and are very inexpensive, and more and more, I see them at venues I play at.

In any case, look up the Glynn John’s method. It’s supposed to be good.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

For kick mic an Audix D6 can make a bathtub fart sound like Thor's thundering punch!

 

[pulsonicsound]

No right or wrong with drum mics, if anything a well tuned kit, good player and a nice space are equally as important.


The only thing I would recommend is using a condenser for your overhead rather than a dynamic, don’t be afraid to just try one overhead as well - a lot of the James brown stuff was recorded with 2 mics, a kick drum and an overhead!

 

[What?]

No right or wrong with drum mics, if anything a well tuned kit, good player and a nice space are equally as important.


The only thing I would recommend is using a condenser for your overhead rather than a dynamic, don’t be afraid to just try one overhead as well - a lot of the James brown stuff was recorded with 2 mics, a kick drum and an overhead!

Ribbon mics have been used a lot for overheads too. I'm not sure what the good low budge options are these days. I bought an Apex ribbon some years back that sounds pretty damn good, but they discontinued it.

 

[PelliX]

Ribbon mics have been used a lot for overheads too. I'm not sure what the good low budge options are these days. I bought an Apex ribbon some years back that sounds pretty damn good, but they discontinued it.

I've been eyeing this bugger for a while:

Avantone Pro CR-14 Ribbon Microphone

Ribbon Microphone with Dual Ribbon Element, Shockmount, Wooden Box, and Metal Case

www.sweetwater.com

Avantone CR-14. It gets very good reviews and doesn't exactly break the bank. No first hand experience yet, but if one is looking a ribbon mic on the cheap...

 

[aikiguy]

I've seen some Behringer sets that look like the case they come in is half the price. There are also brilliant multi-K AKG sets and so on.

Your thoughts?

It’s funny that you mention Behringer. Like everyone else, I was a real hater at one time of just about all Behringer products, but in recent years that has changed. I don’t LOVE everything that they make,especially in microphones, but the ones that I do actually like, I love, and I say that they sound just as good as good or better than anything else out there. I’ve A/B’d a bunch of them and found some staples.

For drums, I’m using the C-2’s. They do a great job on overheads and I’ve recently discovered that they work particularly awesome when set up in the Glyn Jon technique.

For snare and toms, I’m using the SL75C which is a 57 knockoff. I use them live and in my studio.

I’m telling you that if you used these mic’s, nobody would be able to tell the difference, neither on your recorded sound, nor on your live sound.

I’m also a fan of XM8500’s in the place of an SM58.

For kick drum, I’m still using Shure,,but only because that’s what I have.
You can buy the Behringer mics super cheap, too, so you can get four or five for the price of one Shure.

You should take the chance, you won’t be sorry that you did. IMO

I’ve been playing guitar for around 42 years or so (like many around here) and have been recording and playing live for the last 30, so I’m not new at this. If you can get over the fact that everyone else hates on Behringer (Lol) you will be more than pleasantly surprised…

If you end up not liking them (or any other mic) you can just do some drum replacement on the close mic’s in your DAW. Easy.

 

[PelliX]

It’s funny that you mention Behringer. Like everyone else, I was a real hater at one time of just about all Behringer products, but in recent years that has changed. I don’t LOVE everything that they make,especially in microphones, but the ones that I do actually like, I love, and I say that they sound just as good as good or better than anything else out there. I’ve A/B’d a bunch of them and found some staples.

I've never been a hater in that sense, but I've dealt with a fair deal of their kit over the years and some is quite decent. Some is real rubbish, too, though. The mics are not one of the things that have ever impressed me.

My drummer has a set of Behringer drum mics, I forget the model, but it's pretty much the entry level kit. They're really not very good. Actually, they're pretty poor, honestly. Good bang for the buck, but a few more bucks would be well spent.

For drums, I’m using the C-2’s. They do a great job on overheads and I’ve recently discovered that they work particularly awesome when set up in the Glyn Jon technique.

I've heard good things about those specifically, but I haven't had enough hands on to form a solid opinion. Cool that they work for you, that gives me hope, haha!

For snare and toms, I’m using the SL75C which is a 57 knockoff. I use them live and in my studio.

Hmmmm, maybe they work for that. I have one and ... I'm not impressed for vocals or guitar at all. I have a couple of 57's and a 58 that are beyond compare - for those purposes at least.

I’m telling you that if you used these mic’s, nobody would be able to tell the difference, neither on your recorded sound, nor on your live sound.

They have some funky frequency response. The more I think about it, the more I think they might just sort of work in a live setting, with the right circumstances.

You should take the chance, you won’t be sorry that you did. IMO

Well, been there. Wasn't sorry, but neither was I impressed, really.

If you end up not liking them (or any other mic) you can just do some drum replacement on the close mic’s in your DAW. Easy.

True, true. Plenty of that going on, hehe...

 

[Ronquest]

There's quite a few kits under $300 at Sweetwater . https://www.sweetwater.com/c982--Drum_Microphone_Bundles?all&sb=low2high

I've gone from miking everything down to 4 mics. Over heads, kick and snare. With plugin drum enhancement/replacement, eq, and compression you can get some really good sounds with cheap mics. At this level, $1000 mics aren't going to make you sound great and I mean no offense, we sometimes get hung up on having to have the fancy stuff and engineering and mixing go a long way here. The best mics used without the knowledge are not going to produce magic. And another guitar or amp isn't going to make me sound any better.

 

[PelliX]

At this level, $1000 mics aren't going to make you sound great and I mean no offense, we sometimes get hung up on having to have the fancy stuff and engineering and mixing go a long way here.

Amen. I always say that gear should not hold you back, though. Am I going to sound stellar if I buy an 8K Les Paul? No. Should I just get a cheap Chinese clone with ropy hardware, a badly filed nut, a skewed bridge and a warped neck? I opted for a Tribute series which has good enough pickups and hardware for me to be entirely satisfied but without the fancy finishes, bindings and so on.

The thing is, if there's a 7K price difference between my Les Paul and the 8K model, give or take, then no, it's not really worth it to me. On something like a Shure vs Behringer dynamic mic - yes, I'll spend a few tenners more for a (second hand, maybe) Shure. They're practically indestructable and I get much better results with them.

 

[LyseFar]

We use Beyerdynamic TG D58s on toms and snare, AKG D112 on bass drum, SE Electronics SE8’s as overheads. Sometimes also a SM57 under the snare to blend a bit.

 

[DBi5]

Sleep Token's multi-award-winning drummer is known as II.

Note choice of floor tom mic.