Freyette Power Station quirks - Is my FX loop defective?

[FleshOnGear]

So, I’ve noticed that the presence control works strangely when you have the volume all the way down. It seems to give you maximum treble at about 3 o’clock, then starts to roll off treble above that. When you turn up the volume the presence control works normally.

Also, the Power station seems to sound darker at low volume, and needs the treble voicing switch on Brite or Edge, but doesn’t need the treble voicing above Flat at higher volume. This might just be the Fletcher-Munson Curve at work, but I haven’t noticed any major differences with the bass voicing depending on volume.

Anybody else notice these quirks?

EDIT: please read further down. I’ve found an issue with my FX loop, and I don’t know if what I’m experiencing is normal for the Power Station.

 

[Ronquest]

Sorry, I don't have one.
Maybe just the design of the NFB and Presence. The nfb would be greater at higher volumes and this would effect the presence as well, depending on the circuit. I've never seen the PS schematic, if it's even out there. As for the darker at lower volumes it may be a combo of your hearing and speaker cab response at low volume. You could run some frequency sweeps through REW or your DAW and see what you get at low and higher volumes. I've been interested in the PS100 for a while.
Interested to see what you find.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I've been interested in the PS100 for a while.
Interested to see what you find.

I hope I’m not discouraging you from getting one. It’s a great unit, I just noticed this quirk. Unfortunately, I don’t plan on getting into any testing with these issues. I have too many projects queued up as it is. The voicing switches handle any discrepancies between volume levels.

 

[SonVolt]

Can anyone confirm if the Effects Loop is applied to the Line Out signal? For example, if you run a delay through the PowerStation FX Loop, will delay be applied to the Line Out?

 

[FleshOnGear]

Can anyone confirm if the Effects Loop is applied to the Line Out signal? For example, if you run a delay through the PowerStation FX Loop, will delay be applied to the Line Out?

View attachment 152152

l’ll try to test that tonight. I’ve had mine for many months now, and I still haven’t hooked up my pedals to the fx loop.

 

[FleshOnGear]

@SonVolt I tested the line out while using a reverb, and the line out was dry as a bone.

This was actually the first time I used the FX loop, and it’s not acting right. My power station has always let a bit of sound through even when the volume was on zero. When I use the loop there’s no wet signal until I start turning up the volume, but the dry signal gets quieter until I get to about 9:30 on the volume knob. At that point the dry signal almost completely disappears and I only have delay or reverb. When I go higher on the volume dial the dry signal starts to come back in.

To me it sounds like a little bit of the dry signal bleeds around the fix loop, and it’s out of phase with the loop signal so it cancels out. This is not OK. I’ve emailed Fryette, so we’ll see what they say after the holiday. Fingers crossed.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I figured out what’s going wrong, I think. The fx loop is not defective. For some reason a small amount of dry signal goes around the fx loop, and the volume controls, in parallel. I’m having a problem because my reverb pedal (Source Audio Ventris) inverts the dry signal, so there’s a cancellation.

You might think that it’s easy enough to invert the signal again to avoid cancellation, but there are other problems caused by this little bit of parallel dry signal. What if you want to use a flanger? You’ll be stuck with a bit of extra dry signal over it, keeping you from a fully wet sound.

Are any other Power Station users running into similar issues? Am I the only person encountering this dry signal bleed issue?

 

[SpacedOutAce]

I figured out what’s going wrong, I think. The fx loop is not defective. For some reason a small amount of dry signal goes around the fx loop, and the volume controls, in parallel. I’m having a problem because my reverb pedal (Source Audio Ventris) inverts the dry signal, so there’s a cancellation.

You might think that it’s easy enough to invert the signal again to avoid cancellation, but there are other problems caused by this little bit of parallel dry signal. What if you want to use a flanger? You’ll be stuck with a bit of extra dry signal over it, keeping you from a fully wet sound.

Are any other Power Station users running into similar issues? Am I the only person encountering this dry signal bleed issue?

I've not used the FX loop on the Fryette. I place stuff between the preamp (Synergy Syn-2) and poweramp (Fryette Power Station PS-2A). Unfortunately, my tubes, I think, need replaced, as I am getting noise that appears to be related to the Fryette (when set up with just the Fryette, a speaker cable, and cabinet, I get noise like the tubes are going). It's kind fo frustrating since the Fryette is only a few months old and the tubes don't have that many hours on them.

 

[V-man]

I figured out what’s going wrong, I think. The fx loop is not defective. For some reason a small amount of dry signal goes around the fx loop, and the volume controls, in parallel. I’m having a problem because my reverb pedal (Source Audio Ventris) inverts the dry signal, so there’s a cancellation.

You might think that it’s easy enough to invert the signal again to avoid cancellation, but there are other problems caused by this little bit of parallel dry signal. What if you want to use a flanger? You’ll be stuck with a bit of extra dry signal over it, keeping you from a fully wet sound.

Are any other Power Station users running into similar issues? Am I the only person encountering this dry signal bleed issue?

I might consider screwing around with this sometime this week… only I would need to figure out the best way to determine/analyze this with the gear owned.

I don’t mess with reverb pedals, but have a MXR flanger, though I wonder how much bleedthrough there would have to be to convince my ears that is happening.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I might consider screwing around with this sometime this week… only I would need to figure out the best way to determine/analyze this with the gear owned.

I don’t mess with reverb pedals, but have a MXR flanger, though I wonder how much bleedthrough there would have to be to convince my ears that is happening.

So, does your Power Station let sound through when set to zero? I’m trying to determine if that part is normal for these units.

I would be willing to pay Fryette to modify the unit at the factory to stop doing this.

 

[guitarbilly74]

I haven't used the Fryette loop but I've had issues with loops that allowed a bit of dry signal even with set to "series"

The solution is to find effects with a true analog dry path that allows the effects to be mixed with the analog, dry sound internally.

The Boss 500 series, Strymon and I think most Eventide pedals do that. Free The Tone pedals do it too. There are many others but I don't have a full list off the top of my head.

But if the pedal makes the entire sound hit the A/D/A converter then phasing will be an issue because the pedal dry is not really "dry" it's still processed by the effect. In this case it would be better to set the effect mix to 100% (full wet) and use a parallel mixer to mix the effect in.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I haven't used the Fryette loop but I've had issues with loops that allowed a bit of dry signal even with set to "series"

The solution is to find effects with a true analog dry path that allows the effects to be mixed with the analog, dry sound internally.

The Boss 500 series, Strymon and I think most Eventide pedals do that. Free The Tone pedals do it too. There are many others but I don't have a full list off the top of my head.

But if the pedal makes the entire sound hit the A/D/A converter then phasing will be an issue because the pedal dry is not really "dry" it's still processed by the effect. In this case it would be better to set the effect mix to 100% (full wet) and use a parallel mixer to mix the effect in.

I believe the SA Ventris does have an analog dry, but it’s inverted and cancels out with the bleed around the loop. This is annoying because it turns the volume control on the Power Station into a mix control, until you have the volume set quite high and can’t notice it any more. I found out that you can invert the dry a second time in the Ventris, but this does send the signal through the converters and caused comb filtering, which sounded terrible.

My other main concern with this dry bleed is how it will water down modulation effects. I like modulation after distortion, so this is important to me.

The third concern is that this bleed happens all the time, with effects or not, around the volume control, so that there is a minimum volume level for the unit. I use this at home, so I would love to be able to turn it down all the way to zero. I don’t really understand why it can’t be wired to do that.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I've not used the FX loop on the Fryette. I place stuff between the preamp (Synergy Syn-2) and poweramp (Fryette Power Station PS-2A). Unfortunately, my tubes, I think, need replaced, as I am getting noise that appears to be related to the Fryette (when set up with just the Fryette, a speaker cable, and cabinet, I get noise like the tubes are going). It's kind fo frustrating since the Fryette is only a few months old and the tubes don't have that many hours on them.

The tubes in mine went bad after a few months.

 

[V-man]

So, does your Power Station let sound through when set to zero? I’m trying to determine if that part is normal for these units.

This is an easy enough experiment without re-routing cables for the loop.



Straight-in, no FX loop use with volume knob buried (max attenuation), signal passes. It passes regardless of pushing in hi/lo tactile switch though there is no jump in volume, and is barely louder than what you hear of the amp tubes amplifying signal without a cab, but audible… like hearing a LOUD signal passing from unused but plugged in head phones nearby.

I do not consider this operation a design flaw as volume at min means maximum attenuation to me, not “0 volume” or full termination of signal.

Not sure what you’d like to try with the loop though.

Settings as operated below

 

[SonVolt]

@SonVolt I tested the line out while using a reverb, and the line out was dry as a bone.

This seems like odd behavior to me. If you want to amplify a cabinet on stage yet still send a signal to font of house you'd think you'd want your FX chain going along with it. If not, at least provide a toggle button to switch the loop in/out of the line-out path.

 

[FleshOnGear]

This is an easy enough experiment without re-routing cables for the loop.



Straight-in, no FX loop use with volume knob buried (max attenuation), signal passes. It passes regardless of pushing in hi/lo tactile switch though there is no jump in volume, and is barely louder than what you hear of the amp tubes amplifying signal without a cab, but audible… like hearing a LOUD signal passing from unused but plugged in head phones nearby.

I do not consider this operation a design flaw as volume at min means maximum attenuation to me, not “0 volume” or full termination of signal.

Not sure what you’d like to try with the loop though.

Settings as operated below
View attachment 152391

Thanks. Mine is louder than headphones sitting nearby. And it wouldn’t be a big deal having that minimum volume if what I was hearing from the fx loop was 100% wet.

 

[V-man]

On to issue number 2…


There are 2 “Line Out” methods:

1 Direct - PS 100 > XLR > Unit. This method uses the XLR cable and it is XLR OUT (only) on the PS 100

2. Line IN/OUT via 1/4” Instrument cable. There is an IN and OUT jack on the outermost edge of the back panel.


Direct (XLR) passed no signal to my DAW. I tried Phantom power for a split second next. No dice. I am sure research would prevail and rectify this.

LINE OUT 1/4” passed signal to the DAW and that signal is “Dry”(and of course, uncompensated). HOWEVER, I am not sure passing LINE OUT via the 1/4” OUT alone is the intended operation for a wet rig or for whatever other LINE OUT uses. I do not know if FX or something needs to jack into the LINE IN to complete a loop or not when using the 1/4” jack LINE OUT.

These would need to be researched or requested by inquiry to Freyette.

 

[V-man]

Regarding Freyette’s application for Silent Mode:



However you want to check/re-check about running no load, dummy load etc, this was how they envisioned silent operation, not via AMP > PS [ON, Vol. “0”] > CAB that you were attempting/hoping for.


Regarding Line OUT (1/4”)



You tell me what PS 1/4” > “Wet-Only” speaker system means/implies, but it suggests to me that the unbalanced Line OUT 1/4” OUT was meant to run dry.

 

[SonVolt]

Yeah, it's definitely meant to run dry and I understand scenarios where you'd want that. I just wish you could punch in the onboard loop if needed. My use-case is applying a Noise-Gate in a W/D/W rig. You can't just add gating to your normal FX chain because the Center dry cab never sees it (this is unfortunately by design). Was hoping the PowerStation's loop would solve that. Obviously this is a non-issue if the amp itself has an FX-loop.

 

[FleshOnGear]

Yeah, it's definitely meant to run dry and I understand scenarios where you'd want that. I just wish you could punch in the onboard loop if needed. My use-case is applying a Noise-Gate in a W/D/W rig. You can't just add gating to your normal FX chain because the Center dry cab never sees it (this is unfortunately by design). Was hoping the PowerStation's loop would solve that. Obviously this is a non-issue if the amp itself has an FX-loop.

I suppose Fryette made a call about whether or not to make the loop pre or post line out with the intention of minimizing switches taking up the back panel. A switch would be nice.

Maybe you could split the signal after the noise gate, and send one leg back into the Power Station, and the other leg to your wet amp? Of course, if there is signal bleed around the loop, that will make the gate less effective in the loop of the Power Station.

Meanwhile, I have emailed Fryette asking them if they would modify my PS to defeat the signal bleed, even if it’s at my expense. I don’t feel especially hopeful about their answer, but you never know until you ask. I don’t think I’m quite ready to switch to a Boss TAE over this issue, but thought has crossed my mind.