Help Deciding On An Amp To Reproduce My Sound

[tonewheelz]

Yes, you read that right. I'm trying to reproduce my own sound lol. The problem is, I have not been able to reproduce my sound using amps and pedals. As embarrassing and shameful to me as it is, I've only been able to get the sound I want using amp modelers such as GuitarRig.

I'm hoping that you all could help me make an informed decision about choosing an amp. I've scoured the forum, browsed YouTube, and Googled comparisons until I started going loopy, and I'm still not much closer to making a decision.

Some background info. I'd consider the biggest influences on my "sound" to be the standard 60's & 70's classic rock, such as Hendrix, Cream, Zeppelin, Skynyrd, Free, early Black Sabbath (first several albums). I'm not into 80's rock or metal, and don't foresee myself utilizing such sounds for my own music.

With that being said, I'm not trying to necessarily copy the sounds of these legends, and I believe (I may be wrong), that I might have my own sound.

My current gear:

• 1967 Blackface Super Reverb
• Vox AC10c1
• OCD
• MXR Fuzz 108
• MXR Carbon Copy
• Catlin Bread Dirty Little Secret.
• Wilson Effects 12 Position Rippah Q-Wah Vintage Spec

My focus is on recording, and I don't currently play live shows but I'd be mulling around with starting to gig sometime in the future. So I'm fairly certain a 100 watt Plexi isn't goint to be ideal. I've tried recording my current amp using a Scarlett 2i2 & Shure SM57, as well as an AKG Perception 220, and it always sounds so brittle and harsh. I just can't seem to get the sound that I can get with the amp modelers; neither in person nor in recording.

Some creteria that I would prefer to be met:

• -Something that doesn't need to destroy my ears in order to sound good. To put this into context, I play a Hammond C3 and a Leslie 122 in my living, full blast. I can handle this without issue. I can't handle my Super Reverb past volume 4 without hurting my ears, and even on 4 is quite uncomfortable.
  
  
• -I'm looking for something that can clean up well while giving that slight warm crunch, much like what you'd hear on the Axis Bold As Love album.
  
  
• -Something that can give me the sound I'm looking for without making X number of modifications, either with or without my pedals.
  
  
• -Something that plays well with both Single Coils & Humbuckers. I use a Strat, SG, & Les Paul.

For reference to my sound, here are some recordings I've done with which I'd like to be able to get the sound on the amp:

soundcloud com/souldrifter/another-name

soundcloud com/souldrifter/long-depression-song-idearough-draft

soundcloud com/souldrifter/from-the-earth

soundcloud com/souldrifter/closer

soundcloud com/souldrifter/she-knows-my-name

soundcloud com/souldrifter/always

soundcloud com/souldrifter/feel-your-love

soundcloud com/souldrifter/no-one-knows


The amps I've narrowed it down to are the following:

• Marshall 2525H - I have mixed feelings about this, as most of what I've heard is Slash & 80's tones, which aren't really what I'm after. Others say that this amp can absolutely do the classic Plexi cleans & overdriven sounds that I'm looking for; and I've found a few examples on YouTube that seem to back this up.
  
  
• Friedman Dirty Shirley - Everyone raves about this amp, and it appears to be based on the JTM45, but modified for more gain. Can this amp clean up in the way that I'm looking for? Would the 20 watt or 40 watt be better if I'm wanting? I'm worried that the 20 watt will break up too early, and that the 40 watt would need to be too loud to soun good. Also I'd prefer to use this in a 2x12 cab, but Friedman only seems to offer this with V30's, and from what I understand, this might sound a bit brittle for Single Coils compared to Greenbacks. Any cab recommendations, or woul the 2x12 with v30's suffice?
  
  
• Marshall JTM 45 Reissue - Being that I can't even get my 40 watt Super Reverb past Volume 4, would this option even make sense? Would an attenuator or Fryette Power Station get me the tones I'm looking for? Also, what cab would go well with this option?

So, all 3 of these options sound good on YouTube, and I can't find anywhere that I can test these amps near me. I'm hoping you all could help me choose one way or the other based on the reference tracks I've provided. I know it seems so backwards, trying to find an amp to recreate the sound I obtained via amp sims.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance!

 

[Crunchifyable]

I used to love guitar rig at first but the issue eventually was that it didn't really sound anything like a real amp. It sounded like a record...but not the amp.

You don't need volume to find your sound. With the right amp, you can get any sound at under 90db. Like 2 on the Super Reverb I'd guess.

I personally wouldn't worry about volume based "breakup." It's not essential. You can run an attenuator but it's kind of pointless if there are great master volume amps out there that deliver the sound at any volume. And in the home studio situation...too much volume creates resonance issues, vibration, all kinds of problems.

It sounds like you already found your sound. It's guitar rig? It works for you doesn't it? I heard some of the tracks and they probably sound better than what most people get from a "real amp."

A JTM 45 is a very clean amp. a 1987x, a little less clean, and a little more in the direction you are looking for. Both terrible for recording without attenuators or a soundproof room (unless modified)

I'd keep looking at the Friedman stuff. Or a JMP1 Mini amp (not the preamp). And tons of mini plexis out there. Check out the Friedman Runt series too.

Or even a 2203 / 2204 style amp. With the right settings it could do anything and be a set it and forget it amp. I find it to be very dynamic.

Don't worry about the wattage on anything. Just worry about how it sounds at a reasonable volume level. Some amps are fussy based on where the volume control is set...others are not.

I used to fixate over plexis...but after modding my class 5 I've pretty much fixed that itch.



I have an attenuator and I don't like using it. Why? because even in a cranked old amp, the distortion is coming from preamp tubes, especially the phase inverter. Doesn't make sense to me to stress the transformers and power tubes just to get 12ax7s to distort...there are better ways of doing that (Master volumes, cascaded preamps, etc). And Friedman and others are the masters of doing that - making the plexi sound possible at other volume levels, in a more modern package.

You need a greenback cab imo. That's more important than the amp. You could take a random solid state amp and get 95% of the tone you're looking for thru a greenback cab.

 

[mickeydg5]

Link your examples better.

 

[mickeydg5]

This is a good place for a Jubilee and a decent sound processor in the loop.

I know some of you get tired of reading that but it is true.

 

[paul-e-mann]

I used to love guitar rig at first but the issue eventually was that it didn't really sound anything like a real amp. It sounded like a record...but not the amp.

You don't need volume to find your sound. With the right amp, you can get any sound at under 90db. Like 2 on the Super Reverb I'd guess.

I personally wouldn't worry about volume based "breakup." It's not essential. You can run an attenuator but it's kind of pointless if there are great master volume amps out there that deliver the sound at any volume. And in the home studio situation...too much volume creates resonance issues, vibration, all kinds of problems.

It sounds like you already found your sound. It's guitar rig? It works for you doesn't it? I heard some of the tracks and they probably sound better than what most people get from a "real amp."

A JTM 45 is a very clean amp. a 1987x, a little less clean, and a little more in the direction you are looking for. Both terrible for recording without attenuators or a soundproof room (unless modified)

I'd keep looking at the Friedman stuff. Or a JMP1 Mini amp (not the preamp). And tons of mini plexis out there. Check out the Friedman Runt series too.

Or even a 2203 / 2204 style amp. With the right settings it could do anything and be a set it and forget it amp. I find it to be very dynamic.

Don't worry about the wattage on anything. Just worry about how it sounds at a reasonable volume level. Some amps are fussy based on where the volume control is set...others are not.

I used to fixate over plexis...but after modding my class 5 I've pretty much fixed that itch.



I have an attenuator and I don't like using it. Why? because even in a cranked old amp, the distortion is coming from preamp tubes, especially the phase inverter. Doesn't make sense to me to stress the transformers and power tubes just to get 12ax7s to distort...there are better ways of doing that (Master volumes, cascaded preamps, etc). And Friedman and others are the masters of doing that - making the plexi sound possible at other volume levels, in a more modern package.

You need a greenback cab imo. That's more important than the amp. You could take a random solid state amp and get 95% of the tone you're looking for thru a greenback cab.

I like your Class5 tone, what mods did you do?

 

[tonewheelz]

Thanks for the replies guys. Crunchifyable you make some solid points. I hadn't considered that maybe I play with more gain than I had previously thought. I've listened to some clips of the 1987x and it definitely seems to be pretty close to that tone. I wonder how feasible the 1987x through an attenuator would be for recording.

I've kind of shied away from the 1x12 combos because I'm apprehensive of how boxy it may sound. So far I haven't heard a 1x10 or 1x12 combo that hasn't sounded boxy in person. As mentioned, my focus definitely is on recording, but I want to be able to reproduce the sound live...I'm skeptical that a 1x12 combo can do that, providing the punchy low end when cleaned up as well as not sounding too boxy. It's one reason why I'd focused on the 2x12 cab.

mickeydg5, sorry about the problematic links. The forum would not let me post any links because I am a new member :\

It sounds like you have some good thoughts of the Mini Jubilee. Have you had personal experience with it?


Also if it may help, here is a clip of the guitar isolated in "Another Name"

 

[chiliphil1]

I think the 1987 with a load box would be great. You could run it straight into the computer and record silently, so volume levels wouldn’t matter then. Run some cabinet IR’s and you’re on your way.

Out of what you listed though I would think that the dirty Shirley mini should do everything you want. That amp sounds amazing and it’ll handle that gritty AC/DC, zep tone without the slightest issue and if you ever felt froggy it’ll get all the way to Metallica. At 20 watts it won’t be too loud for you and with its fantastic master volume you can achieve the sounds you’re after just above whisper volumes.

Another option would be a kemper profiler. I’ve gone this way myself and don’t have the slightest regret. With the kemper you can have any amp and any tone ever created. You can run a plexi at full tilt using nothing but headphones, it’ll plug straight into the computer to record, and the powered version has a 600 watt amp so, it’ll gig too. Check out some demos, I think you’ll like what you find.

One other thing, I just wanted to mention that I’ve been in your shoes on this. When I was staying out I used modeling and I was very happy. I got tones from line 6 that I was completely satisfied with and for years I stayed away from tube amps because none of them could give me the same sound. It took me years and the help of this forum to finally “cross over” to the world of tubes. I started out with a DSL15 and really never looked back. I’ve had a tone of tube amps now and what I’ve learned is that it’s a compromise, you have to use pedals in most cases to modify the tone, the amps are volume dependent, and they’re not as adjustable as the models of them are. It’s point blank easier to play a digital model than it is to play a real amp.

With that said you may prefer to stay in the digital realm, if the kemper doesn’t appeal to you perhaps the line 6 helix or the axefx 2 would. Those are very portable, recording friendly, and they can run into your fender amp and sound very good.

Whichever way you go, I wish you luck. I’ve been there before and it’s a pain in the neck trying to nail down your thing.

 

[Ghostman]

Did I miss where you listed how you recorded the tones you are trying to replicate? Wouldn't the solution be as easy as using the same gear?

 

[Crunchifyable]

I like your Class5 tone, what mods did you do?

I have a treble peaking cap that adds like a +3 db treble boost. Not a huge change but makes it more... "likeable" on the high strings. .

Also added master volume...the stock amp gets all its distortion from the preamp tubes. The designer was very clever...he engineered some post-tone stack distortion to make up for the lack of a phase inverter.

the HUGE change for me, is adding a capacitor in series with the input (470pf or 940pf...haven't decided on which to keep or both). It kills the gain by about a notch on the dial, but it high pass filters away the low end before it even hits the tubes, meaning the high end is a little more sparkly and gritty, and the low end is cleaner. It's like running a treble boost basically but costs 20 cents and is easily housed in a pedal or added on to an input jack beside the main input.

I also used about 3db clean boost in that clip. But I still think it has plenty of grit without it...it's just like many amps...it sounds best with the volume / gain set to around 7/10...gets muddier after that...so I boost it a little instead of maxing the gain.

My mods cost about $2. (2 or 3 470pf caps, two pieces of ~24 gauge copper wire, and 1 M audio pot (could use 500 or 250k as well). I cut out two minor caps as well but I don't think they affect the sound much (one is just for the headphone output that most people end up using as an attenuated output).

Back to the discussion about amps for the OP...I think a 1987 attenuated would work well. Most attenuators can handle a 50 watter. As would the Friedman amps mentioned. I think it's just a matter of versatility vs authenticity...but frankly if you ever got tired of the 1987 it would probably be easy to sell.

 

[dptone5]

I would get a Marshall 1936 2 x 12 and load it with 25 Watt Greenbacks. From there, a JTM 45 or Dirty Shirley would be my first two choices for the head.

 

[paul-e-mann]

I have a treble peaking cap that adds like a +3 db treble boost. Not a huge change but makes it more... "likeable" on the high strings. .

Also added master volume...the stock amp gets all its distortion from the preamp tubes. The designer was very clever...he engineered some post-tone stack distortion to make up for the lack of a phase inverter.

the HUGE change for me, is adding a capacitor in series with the input (470pf or 940pf...haven't decided on which to keep or both). It kills the gain by about a notch on the dial, but it high pass filters away the low end before it even hits the tubes, meaning the high end is a little more sparkly and gritty, and the low end is cleaner. It's like running a treble boost basically but costs 20 cents and is easily housed in a pedal or added on to an input jack beside the main input.

I also used about 3db clean boost in that clip. But I still think it has plenty of grit without it...it's just like many amps...it sounds best with the volume / gain set to around 7/10...gets muddier after that...so I boost it a little instead of maxing the gain.

My mods cost about $2. (2 or 3 470pf caps, two pieces of ~24 gauge copper wire, and 1 M audio pot (could use 500 or 250k as well). I cut out two minor caps as well but I don't think they affect the sound much (one is just for the headphone output that most people end up using as an attenuated output).

Back to the discussion about amps for the OP...I think a 1987 attenuated would work well. Most attenuators can handle a 50 watter. As would the Friedman amps mentioned. I think it's just a matter of versatility vs authenticity...but frankly if you ever got tired of the 1987 it would probably be easy to sell.

Is there anywhere I can read up on these mods, I always wanted a class 5.

 

[mickeydg5]

Did I miss where you listed how you recorded the tones you are trying to replicate? Wouldn't the solution be as easy as using the same gear?

He mentioned his playing while recording method is going to make him deaf. He wants to find another way.

 

[mickeydg5]

It sounds like you have some good thoughts of the Mini Jubilee. Have you had personal experience with it?

I use a 50W Jubilee.
I can make it sound like a cranked .1W or a lower volume 100W when tweaking things and the sound processor.

 

[ampmadscientist]

Yes, you read that right. I'm trying to reproduce my own sound lol. The problem is, I have not been able to reproduce my sound using amps and pedals. As embarrassing and shameful to me as it is, I've only been able to get the sound I want using amp modelers such as GuitarRig.

I'm hoping that you all could help me make an informed decision about choosing an amp. I've scoured the forum, browsed YouTube, and Googled comparisons until I started going loopy, and I'm still not much closer to making a decision.

Some background info. I'd consider the biggest influences on my "sound" to be the standard 60's & 70's classic rock, such as Hendrix, Cream, Zeppelin, Skynyrd, Free, early Black Sabbath (first several albums). I'm not into 80's rock or metal, and don't foresee myself utilizing such sounds for my own music.

With that being said, I'm not trying to necessarily copy the sounds of these legends, and I believe (I may be wrong), that I might have my own sound.

My current gear:

• 1967 Blackface Super Reverb
• Vox AC10c1
• OCD
• MXR Fuzz 108
• MXR Carbon Copy
• Catlin Bread Dirty Little Secret.
• Wilson Effects 12 Position Rippah Q-Wah Vintage Spec

My focus is on recording, and I don't currently play live shows but I'd be mulling around with starting to gig sometime in the future. So I'm fairly certain a 100 watt Plexi isn't goint to be ideal. I've tried recording my current amp using a Scarlett 2i2 & Shure SM57, as well as an AKG Perception 220, and it always sounds so brittle and harsh. I just can't seem to get the sound that I can get with the amp modelers; neither in person nor in recording.

Some creteria that I would prefer to be met:

• -Something that doesn't need to destroy my ears in order to sound good. To put this into context, I play a Hammond C3 and a Leslie 122 in my living, full blast. I can handle this without issue. I can't handle my Super Reverb past volume 4 without hurting my ears, and even on 4 is quite uncomfortable.
  
  
• -I'm looking for something that can clean up well while giving that slight warm crunch, much like what you'd hear on the Axis Bold As Love album.
  
  
• -Something that can give me the sound I'm looking for without making X number of modifications, either with or without my pedals.
  
  
• -Something that plays well with both Single Coils & Humbuckers. I use a Strat, SG, & Les Paul.

For reference to my sound, here are some recordings I've done with which I'd like to be able to get the sound on the amp:

soundcloud com/souldrifter/another-name

soundcloud com/souldrifter/long-depression-song-idearough-draft

soundcloud com/souldrifter/from-the-earth

soundcloud com/souldrifter/closer

soundcloud com/souldrifter/she-knows-my-name

soundcloud com/souldrifter/always

soundcloud com/souldrifter/feel-your-love

soundcloud com/souldrifter/no-one-knows


The amps I've narrowed it down to are the following:

• Marshall 2525H - I have mixed feelings about this, as most of what I've heard is Slash & 80's tones, which aren't really what I'm after. Others say that this amp can absolutely do the classic Plexi cleans & overdriven sounds that I'm looking for; and I've found a few examples on YouTube that seem to back this up.
  
  
• Friedman Dirty Shirley - Everyone raves about this amp, and it appears to be based on the JTM45, but modified for more gain. Can this amp clean up in the way that I'm looking for? Would the 20 watt or 40 watt be better if I'm wanting? I'm worried that the 20 watt will break up too early, and that the 40 watt would need to be too loud to soun good. Also I'd prefer to use this in a 2x12 cab, but Friedman only seems to offer this with V30's, and from what I understand, this might sound a bit brittle for Single Coils compared to Greenbacks. Any cab recommendations, or woul the 2x12 with v30's suffice?
  
  
• Marshall JTM 45 Reissue - Being that I can't even get my 40 watt Super Reverb past Volume 4, would this option even make sense? Would an attenuator or Fryette Power Station get me the tones I'm looking for? Also, what cab would go well with this option?

So, all 3 of these options sound good on YouTube, and I can't find anywhere that I can test these amps near me. I'm hoping you all could help me choose one way or the other based on the reference tracks I've provided. I know it seems so backwards, trying to find an amp to recreate the sound I obtained via amp sims.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance!

If you insist on using all those pedals,
The only amp that will really work is a clean amp.
Fender is going to come closer to that.

Well, you "could" use some better microphones....but buying an amp with a lot of gain is not going to work with pedals.

But:
Work on sound without any pedals first.
Don't build the whole thing around effects pedals.
That would be a better starting point, to get a good sound from the amp itself and don't rely on so many effects.

 

[Guitar-Rocker]

Look into a quality clone of a Fender 5E3, that covers most all that you have listed, and gets rid of several pedals.

 

[tonewheelz]

Thanks everyone for their replies! You've all given me a lot to think about, and I've done a fair share of research based on all of your input.

The Kemper profiler honestly is quite mind blowing. I think it is probably one of the most pragmatic means of reproducing pretty much any type of sound. Call it, silly, but since I've already been down the route of amp modeling, I think I'd really want to try reproducing this sound in a more traditional (and probably outdated) fashion.

The recommendation of a loadbox really sent me on a journey of tools I didn't even realize existed, such as Impulse Response, which I think could be really helpful for recording; especially if I continue to struggle with getting the recorded sound using a traditional amp & cabinet. Celestion's IR packs seem to be pretty amazing.

With that being said, I believe I've decided to try going with a Marshall 1987x and 1936 loaded with greenbacks, along with the use of a Rockcrusher.

It came down to the JTM45 and 1987x, and from what I understand, when both are pushed, the 1987x might be able to cut through the mix a bit better. Ultimately, I'll probably still look into adding a Dirty Shirley as well.

 

[Springfield Scooter]

Thanks everyone for their replies! You've all given me a lot to think about, and I've done a fair share of research based on all of your input.

The Kemper profiler honestly is quite mind blowing. I think it is probably one of the most pragmatic means of reproducing pretty much any type of sound. Call it, silly, but since I've already been down the route of amp modeling, I think I'd really want to try reproducing this sound in a more traditional (and probably outdated) fashion.

The recommendation of a loadbox really sent me on a journey of tools I didn't even realize existed, such as Impulse Response, which I think could be really helpful for recording; especially if I continue to struggle with getting the recorded sound using a traditional amp & cabinet. Celestion's IR packs seem to be pretty amazing.

With that being said, I believe I've decided to try going with a Marshall 1987x and 1936 loaded with greenbacks, along with the use of a Rockcrusher.

It came down to the JTM45 and 1987x, and from what I understand, when both are pushed, the 1987x might be able to cut through the mix a bit better. Ultimately, I'll probably still look into adding a Dirty Shirley as well.

Get a Marshall Code and be done with it.
No fx needed as its already built in.
25 watt, 50 watt, or 100 watt...

 

[Ghostman]

Your Blackface is too loud, and you are pointing towards a JTM45 or 1987x. Hmm.





well, good luck with that.

 

[MesaMan50]

When I first read your post, I was thinking JTM45 immediately, until I heard your sound, and knew it’s not really a compressed Marshall tone you’re after. From what I hear in your samples, is a striking similarity to the sound I get from my Mesa DC-5. I know you are apprehensive about Combos, however you are surely aware the large cabinet of your 4x10 lends more open depth just as the wide-body Mesa’s have. So it is indeed less “Boxy”. Sadly, the DC-5 and it’s successor the Nomad 55 have been out of production for several years, so a used piece might not be your goal.

However the commonality these have with your Fender, and the sound which I hear, is multiple 12AX7’s in pre-amp stage, and 6L6’s for a broad sounding power amp. Lastly, you probably want a speaker that leans towards clean reproduction of the amp such as the Black Shadow to retain the chime you get on the top-end. The DC-5 has all of that, and pretty sure the Nomad does too.

So I believe you are looking for something that is a Fender clone, but designed to grind when you lean into it with the pick. I am amazed how plectrum attack on my Les Paul can churn out warm rhythm, and then I back off the picking with no volume adjustment and it’s clean and clear for single notes.

As for output volume, the Mesa’s are a master volume design, I rarely play above 2.5 on the master, even with my band at full tilt boogie.

Happy Amp Hunting.

 

[Wildeman]

Have you considered a big modeler/profiler like a Axe or Kemper?