How to drive power tubes hard (for sweet tone) without as much volume?

[scozz]

^^^ THIS! ^^^
I built a John H attenuator, and it works fantastically.
I've tried it on most of my tube amps - MV & NMV…….
Not much of a difference on MV amps between turning the MV up and using attenuation, and just turn the MM down……..
Even with amps that DO get some power tube tone, lowering the volume at the speaker just takes away some of that "mojo".
I think I've found that a lot of what I like from the tone of my amps comes from movin' air.

I don’t use an attenuator at lower volumes, I use it to crank the amp and back off a few db’s, 8 or 9db’s or so. The mv on a Studio800 is very responsive and interacts incredibly well with the preamp volume.

Even on the 5 watt setting these amps are loud when cranked, too loud for my medium sized room. Even on the 5 watt setting with the master at 6, it’s 105db in the room.

 

[svinyard]

I’m

I hate to ask a stupid question, but you are running the DSL40CR you have in the low power 20 watt mode to push the tubes more at the lower volume when you want to right?
I use the lower 10 watt mode of my DSL20CR all the time and get good tone while at a more manageable volume for when I want to. But regardless, if you want an amp to have a very low volume with a particular tone, to me, generally you need to buy a specific amp for that. Why don't you consider adding on a DSL1HR with a 1-12 cab for that or the DSL5CR? Sometimes we just expect a product to do everything we want, even though it wasn't designed to.

I’m running it on 40w. The 20w mode thin’s out the tone on mine. Fine for practice

 

[Maxbrothman]

Try putting an EQ in a loop and driving the PTs that way. You bypass the pre-amp stage as you boost and shape the tone.

 

[svinyard]

I was just comparing my sv20 and dsl40c the other day when you brought this up about getting a more “vintage” sound. I ran both into the OX Box to compare, then into sv212. The dsl40c everything on 10 minus bass and resonance got kinda close to the sv20’s more vintage sound but I found it lacking. Just my opinion.

I’ve tried that as well, it wasn’t great. The EQ knobs are sensitive in that they change things a lot.

For me it was going to just the pure green channel on that amp along with dimed gain and tuning the EQ. With a lot of volume on both channels…viola. Out of all the channels, the clean (on my CR) is nice and not super modern toned. That ended up bringing the goods. We have different circuits between the C and CR.

 

[fitz]

I don’t use an attenuator at lower volumes, I use it to crank the amp and back off a few db’s, 8 or 9db’s or so. The mv on a Studio800 is very responsive and interacts incredibly well with the preamp volume.

Even on the 5 watt setting these amps are loud when cranked, too loud for my medium sized room. Even on the 5 watt setting with the master at 6, it’s 105db in the room.

Attenuation works better on some of my amps than others.
Single channel 800's seem to be amps they work great with.
Backing off a few dB's is different from loud amp tone at low volume.
I don't have a 40CR, which does have MV(s) if I'm not mistaken, so I'm wondering if it would be of any real benefit to crank the amp up and then tame the power to the speaker.

 

[scozz]

Attenuation works better on some of my amps than others.
Single channel 800's seem to be amps they work great with.
Backing off a few dB's is different from loud amp tone at low volume.
I don't have a 40CR, which does have MV(s) if I'm not mistaken, so I'm wondering if it would be of any real benefit to crank the amp up and then tame the power to the speaker.

Agreed bro, no amp’s gonna sound good cranked and attenuating down to very low volumes. The tone just gets all compressed and squished imo.

For knocking off just a few dbs, most attenuators work pretty well I think.

 

[svinyard]

Roger that, thanks guys!

 

[scozz]

I’m

I’m running it on 40w. The 20w mode thin’s out the tone on mine. Fine for practice

I may have missed this but have you tried a good transparent od pedal in green clean?

Maybe you bought the wrong amp, while the Dsl line is very versatile it doesn’t do vintage Marshall tones very well imo.

If you don’t need all those channels and modes, an 800 combo would probably be a better fit for you imo.

A Studio800 would work great I think, or something along the lines of this amp below,…

Marshall JCM 800 Lead Series Model 4010 50-Watt Master Volume 1x12 Combo | Reverb

Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.

reverb.com

 

[svinyard]

I may have missed this but have you tried a good transparent od pedal in green clean?

Maybe you bought the wrong amp, while the Dsl line is very versatile it doesn’t do vintage Marshall tones very well imo.

If you don’t need all those channels and modes, an 800 combo would probably be a better fit for you imo.

A Studio800 would work great I think, or something along the lines of this amp below,…

Marshall JCM 800 Lead Series Model 4010 50-Watt Master Volume 1x12 Combo | Reverb

Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.

reverb.com

I feel like I found a great ACDC tone in it! It was just on the pure green channel with volume up. This idea/setup came from a dude who was into JMP 800’s/Plexis who was hunting classic ACDC tones and mod'ing Origin's as well. He had high praise for a loud DSL clean channel with the gain knob up. The other channel voices are too modern tho I think. Sounded great to me! Kind of a hidden gem with it cranked (to me at least). I wanted to see if the amp could do it without pedals. A nice Ibanez tube screamer or DS-1 I’m told would be great. I think it’ll also tighten up the bass on the gainy channels, which is def a thing of need and a step closer to a JCM800 tone.

But yeah bro, I def want a 4010 lol. My DSL was like 550$ mint used. So it’ll do for now. I’ve got too many expensive hobbies, mountain biking and music will make you poor quick lol.

Those JCM800’s are fairly gainy with a bit of compression too right? Giving them that tight, 80’s hair band/classic metal. Also, how do you play that thing inside? I’ve heard that 50w combo is a beast but you gotta also turn it up.

 

[marshallmellowed]

^^^ THIS! ^^^
I built a John H attenuator, and it works fantastically.
I've tried it on most of my tube amps - MV & NMV.
Not much of a difference on MV amps between turning the MV up and using attenuation, and just turning the MV down.
Even with amps that DO get some power tube tone, lowering the volume at the speaker just takes away some of that "mojo".
I think I've found that a lot of what I like from the tone of my amps comes from movin' air.

Exactly, same results here. I've tried attenuators with all my amps, and aside from wearing out power tubes, little to be gained from attenuating a MV amp, at least the ones I've tried.

 

[marshallmellowed]

Try putting an EQ in a loop and driving the PTs that way. You bypass the pre-amp stage as you boost and shape the tone.

Yes, this is a better approach than attenuation, at least for a MV amp with a loop.

 

[svinyard]

Yes, this is a better approach than attenuation, at least for a MV amp with a loop.

So I have a Fish and Chips 7 band EQ I'll do this with today. It has a "level" slider as well. How do I best put this to use without screwing things up?

 

[marshallmellowed]

So I have a Fish and Chips 7 band EQ I'll do this with today. It has a "level" slider as well. How do I best put this to use without screwing things up?

Amp loop "Send" to EQ "in", EQ "out" to amp loop "Return". Experiment with various EQ settings and see what you get.

 

[HAN]

Amp loop "Send" to EQ "in", EQ "out" to amp loop "Return". Experiment with various EQ settings and see what you get.

Not pushing the power tubes…. just trying to get a tone that works for you by eq…

 

[svinyard]

So put in the EQ in the loop and it still needed a lot of volume to break up (which is fine, that's what the classic amps do). I then threw in the front between the amp and guitar. The EQ def drove the amp and I got a lot of gain actually just with the EQ and modest levels. That actually worked really well at low volumes. Sure the tone isn't as full as when things are cranked but it was definitely more inline with what I needed and allowed me to get transparent distortion out of the classic clean channel with its less modern voice (for sure).

So what exactly is that EQ doing out front that's making it distort so much more early at less volume?

 

[marshallmellowed]

So put in the EQ in the loop and it still needed a lot of volume to break up (which is fine, that's what the classic amps do). I then threw in the front between the amp and guitar. The EQ def drove the amp and I got a lot of gain actually just with the EQ and modest levels. That actually worked really well at low volumes. Sure the tone isn't as full as when things are cranked but it was definitely more inline with what I needed and allowed me to get transparent distortion out of the classic clean channel with its less modern voice (for sure).

So what exactly is that EQ doing out front that's making it distort so much more early at less volume?

Anything that boosts the input level, hitting the preamp with a hotter signal, will result in the preamp tubes clipping sooner. (Pedals, hotter guitar pickups...). Boosting the signal in the loop will drive the phase inverter (PI) tube harder, which is the first tube in the power amp stage. Each position, (before the input or in the loop) will produce different results.

 

[TonalEuphoria]

I’m

I’m running it on 40w. The 20w mode thin’s out the tone on mine. Fine for practice

Other than running an attenuator like so many have mentioned or buying a lower wattage amp you can run hotter and get more of the volume you want, I don't see many options. Or just using the fake stuff. And I say that as a player who doesn't like modeling compared to using a real amp. There are important differences for me. But they are useful for practice and recording when running a tube amp in the sweet spot isn't optimal. I sold off my latest FM3 recently after having various Line 6's, Boss's and a Mooer over the years besides. They are convenient though and you are getting a model of the amp in it's sweet spot for the most part. I use plugins for that now when I want, running an ISP FS8 FRFR from one of the outs on my interface. Mainly Neural DSP stuff now.

 

[scozz]

So put in the EQ in the loop and it still needed a lot of volume to break up (which is fine, that's what the classic amps do). I then threw in the front between the amp and guitar. The EQ def drove the amp and I got a lot of gain actually just with the EQ and modest levels. That actually worked really well at low volumes. Sure the tone isn't as full as when things are cranked but it was definitely more inline with what I needed and allowed me to get transparent distortion out of the classic clean channel with its less modern voice (for sure).

So what exactly is that EQ doing out front that's making it distort so much more early at less volume?

Some guys are running two eq pedals in their chain, one in the loop and one in front, I haven’t tried that yet but I do have one in the loop.

Are you closer to the tone you’re after with the eq in front?

 

[svinyard]

Some guys are running two eq pedals in their chain, one in the loop and one in front, I haven’t tried that yet but I do have one in the loop.

Are you closer to the tone you’re after with the eq in front?

I'm getting a tone that I really like for AC/DC on the Classic Green channel. It's just requiring a lot of volume lol. The EQ is kind of giving me that at lower volume levels when out front as its hitting the pre-amp tubes a bit harder I guess and getting break up. So that's good enough, nothing sounds awesome at lower volumes and that's fine. I just wanted a classic rock tone, and now I'm getting it without pedals etc. The EQ helps me get enough of that at low volumes.

With that being said, I'm interested in swapping the V1 pre-amp tube for something like an ECC823. Apparently it doesn't impact the classic channel and helps tame the gain (on my humbucker) on that OD2 channel. I like the tone on that OD2...but the gain is just too much and it seems to all much together. I'm just asking people around the forum to see what their experience is with doing something like that.

 

[scozz]

I'm getting a tone that I really like for AC/DC on the Classic Green channel. It's just requiring a lot of volume lol. The EQ is kind of giving me that at lower volume levels when out front as its hitting the pre-amp tubes a bit harder I guess and getting break up. So that's good enough, nothing sounds awesome at lower volumes and that's fine. I just wanted a classic rock tone, and now I'm getting it without pedals etc. The EQ helps me get enough of that at low volumes.

With that being said, I'm interested in swapping the V1 pre-amp tube for something like an ECC823. Apparently it doesn't impact the classic channel and helps tame the gain (on my humbucker) on that OD2 channel. I like the tone on that OD2...but the gain is just too much and it seems to all much together. I'm just asking people around the forum to see what their experience is with doing something like that.

People have had pretty good luck with those preamp tubes in V1 in DSL’s.

Another option too would be just a lower gain tube, like a 5751, 12at7 for example. Lots of folks have had good results with those tubes too.

I’ve got a 5751 in V1 in my little Dsl1hr, it helped big time in the red channel, it made the red channel useable and the green channel virtually unaffected.

Completely different amp of course,…. by far. The amp only has two channels, green and red, and that’s it, no additional modes.

Anyway, just pointing out another avenue available to you on your tone journey, that’s definitely worth looking into. Price of a single preamp tube.

Gain chart percentages,…