JCM800 Re-Issue Sounds Fizzy

[RussBert]

I

All amp controls are at 6 except MV and PA - MV is at 0.3 and PA is at 10.

Is PA presence? If so, turn it down and turn the master up

 

[slagg]

I think "PA" is refering to "Preamp"but I could be wrong there.I think the 800's gotta have the master at least at 4,I like em around 7 myself with lower "preamp"gain,beefy as all hell.

 

[nedcronin]

I think .3 means 3 on the volume. If he means .3 as in less than 1, then hell yeah it's barely on!

 

[NewReligion]

I have fought fizzy/buzzy tones for 40 years.

Fizzy is in the ear of the beholder. I agree, I feel that circuit to be a bit high ended and fizzy in addition to 75 watt celestions. Not intended to offend anyone but I have been of this opinion for years. Time and time again I have revisited the 2203/2204 circuit and mods only to realize that the circuit is not for me.

Here is a 1989 JCM 800 2210 through a XXX cab live and the second video is a Dual Rec 2 channel through a 1960BV vintage 30 412 also live. Both are smooth, nothing fizzy about them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k1LCayMzcI]Marshall JCM 800 Model 2210 - David C. Hopkins - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnjP1yrH9us]David C Hopkins - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Wiseblood]

As always sounding good NewReligion!

 

[Adrian R]

I hace fought fizzy/buzzy tones for 40 years.

Fizzy is in the ear of the beholder. I agree, I feel that circuit to be a bit high ended and fizzy in addition to 75 watt celestions. Not intended to offend anyone but I have been of this opinion for years. Time and time again I have revisited the 2203/2204 circuit and mods only to realize that the circuit is not for me.

Here is a 1989 JCM 800 2210 through a XXX cab live and the second video is a Dual Rec 2 channel through a 1960BV vintage 30 412 also live. Both are smooth, nothing fizzy about them.

Marshall JCM 800 Model 2210 - David C. Hopkins - YouTube

David C Hopkins - YouTube

Sounds awesome man! Lets hear another take with the LP and the 2210..that has GOT TO BE AMAZING.. I need to get some video of my stuff too! Both of my amps do not share any part of ANY universe that contains any degree of fizz! Both are THICK AS HELL..and make concrete shake man...the 89' 2204 is especially beyond words...One of the best Marshalls I have ever heard.

 

[NewReligion]

Sounds awesome man! Lets hear another take with the LP and the 2210..that has GOT TO BE AMAZING.. I need to get some video of my stuff too! Both of my amps do not share any part of ANY universe that contains any degree of fizz! Both are THICK AS HELL..and make concrete shake man...the 89' 2204 is especially beyond words...One of the best Marshalls I have ever heard.

Thanks guys.

Wycked Lester has a early 80's 2203 that is amazing!!!! If I could find one that sounded like it I would jump all over it.

N R

 

[X2203xman]

That 2210 is pure monster brother,much applause here.

 

[nedcronin]

Wow sounds killer NR

 

[medicjg]

I agree with David. Matter of fact his 2210 demonstration resulted in me buying a 2205 and its my favorite head. To me its just a fantastic sound and with some tweaking I have even come to love the clean channel. I purchased a 2204 later down the road and it was just too loud in comparison to the 2205. Killer amp none the less but im from the split channel camp and that is never gonna change as far as the 800s. I love having the extra master volume hell every knob on the amp really shapes the sound. I understand why they aren't for everyone but for me the split channel is the marshall growl that was in my head.

 

[NewReligion]

I agree with David. Matter of fact his 2210 demonstration resulted in me buying a 2205 and its my favorite head. To me its just a fantastic sound and with some tweaking I have even come to love the clean channel. I purchased a 2204 later down the road and it was just too loud in comparison to the 2205. Killer amp none the less but im from the split channel camp and that is never gonna change as far as the 800s. I love having the extra master volume hell every knob on the amp really shapes the sound. I understand why they aren't for everyone but for me the split channel is the marshall growl that was in my head.

+1000000 This

 

[jupiter89]

I like ics1974 would love to hear and example of fizzy (and flabby) as well. It's hard to describe in words something so subjective. I am sure I have had some crappy settings at one time or another and experienced fizziness, but would love to hear an example to see if I'm in fact thinking of the same thing.

 

[RobS]

^^THIS^^ya gotta give her some juice!

+1
0.3 on the master is nothing, you will hear a definite change in tone once you turn it up. Less pre and more master is the go

 

[Voodoo Amps]

I agree with the advice Avivoni provided. The transformers used on the 2203x along with the filter caps do tend to make the highs more prominent and there is a low end roll off. It is also worth mentioning that much the same as speakers, new amps also have a break in period. Caps and resistors take approximately 40 hours and new transformers take approximately 100 hours before they are settled in.

Here are a few things to investigate that have helped others;

Bias - I have found that biasing these between 60-70% is also helpful but that greatly depends on the kind of tubes you are using. The SED "Winged-C" EL34's have more of the warmer lower mids and most seem to love those in the reissue. They are the most costly EL34 in modern production but they are also very reliable and rugged.

Fx-Loop - The loop rolls off bottom end making the tone sound harsh/bright. The loop can be easily Modified to off set these differences and any good tech who understands solid state circuits should be able to do it for around $25-$40.

Bright Cap - As Russbert mentioned, removing the .001uF cap that is soldered onto the Gain pot is a must for some players. If you are not using the Gain control on 10/wide open then removing this cap will help to make the amp sound warmer on the top end and restore some low end. The amp is also easier to play when this cap is removed. Bluesy players favor this a lot.

Master Volume - Also if you are using the amp on .3 (and not 3 on a scale from 1-10) then you will get a low end roll off, which is common on many amps. There are ways to get around this but over all these amps do have to be turned up to around 9:00 on the Master before they start sounding balanced (in my humble opinion)

 

[RobS]

Caps and resistors take approximately 40 hours and new transformers take approximately 100 hours before they are settled in.
I have used my 2203x extensivley through a powerbrake and wondered about this too. I have to admit that when new it was a little bright but after 'running it in' it has definitly warmed up

rob

 

[Voodoo Amps]

Caps and resistors take approximately 40 hours and new transformers take approximately 100 hours before they are settled in.
I have used my 2203x extensivley through a powerbrake and wondered about this too. I have to admit that when new it was a little bright but after 'running it in' it has definitly warmed up

rob

Your ears are correct Rob. If you study Metallurgy and see the stress metals go through before they are in their final form, it all makes perfect sense. Much the same is true with speakers, which most are familiar with also having a break in period. Anything with new metal will have a break in period. We have a proprietary break-in rig for amps we manufacture and Modify. For those that do not, the best solution is to play on the amp.


Have a great Tuesday Rob!
Trace

 

[gunalorsel]

Thank you very much for the advises all my friends... I really do appreciate your time you have spent on helping me solving out the issues.

As an update, I have to let you know that the amp was bought 3 months ago, and have been played almost every day during the period. I have also played the half-stack live on an open-air concert for almost 2 hours master volume at 7. I have started the convert my guitar plugged in the low-sens input and used my Analogman modded TS-808 and Fulltone Fulldrive II in chain to get my sound. After a couple of songs, I have switched to high-sens output to be able to test the amps natural drive, pre-amp set at 7.

There is an audio clip which I have recorded in previous posts, for those of you who would like to listed to the problem I have described.

As an update, I have tried the following, and obtained below results:
- Tried different set of pre-amp valves (ranging from ECC83's left from my JCM900 combo from 20 years ago, 12AX7's from my Fender Bassman 59 reissue, 12AT7, 5751 I am using in my Fender amp - in various positions. The pre-amp tubes which have contributed to decrease the "fizzy" sound I have described were the Fender stock 12AX7 and 12AY7 - which I think are less-gain valves compared to others.
- I live in Istanbul, Turkey - and the grid voltage is 220V. It may vary from the time of the day, can go lower and higher (-+ 5-6 volts) and I was using the amp set at voltage 230V. I have switched and tested it for short period at 220V - and the result was better. What I am looking for is the organic smooth distortion without that chainsaw in low-trebles.
- I have read all comments about the BIAS of the amp - as soon as I get a voltage-meter I will check the bias setting - and in the meantime will order SED "Winged-C" EL-34s. Looking at the stock EL-34 valves I cannot say the manufacturer since they are labelled as Marshall. I will also buy a couple of 12AX7's from different manufacturers to experiment.
- I used to have a JCM900 100W dual-reverb combo (4102 I guess) which I bought new in 1992 - but have sold it 2 years ago. I have not used any OD/distortion pedals at that time but switched to a Bassman 59 planning to play more classic-rock/blues then hord-rock but missed my original Marshall sound/crunch and invested to the JCM800. JCM900 was too gainy and I thought I could settle on JCM800 in between. THe JCM900 combo was also fitted with 75-watt celestions but I never have had the "fizzy" treble sound from them even bought new.
- I will be visiting US this week, and will be buying an attenuator - I will experiment the amp at high master-volume settings next-week and will share the results. Hopefully I will also check its bias in the meantime.

I am currently using the low-sens input MV at 1 and pre-amp at 8. In lower pre-amp settings the amp is thin because of the low MV. I drive the amp with the two pedals mentioned.

I will also experiment it without the bright-cap if I cannot get the result I am expecting following the re-bias and attenuator. Hopefully those 2 actions will bring my amp to the territory.

But, it still seems strange: I can't keep thinking that the increased MV wouldn't increase the fizzy noise I am complaining, too?

Thank you very much, once again.

Best Regards

 

[V-man]

Thanks guys.

Wycked Lester has a early 80's 2203 that is amazing!!!! If I could find one that sounded like it I would jump all over it.

N R

So does this mean the 2204 finally went out the door? I lost track when in amazement I didn't see it up for sale within 72 hours here

 

[NewReligion]

So does this mean the 2204 finally went out the door? I lost track when in amazement I didn't see it up for sale within 72 hours here

Lol, yes the 1978 2203 is history now too.

 

[slagg]

Thank you very much for the advises all my friends... I really do appreciate your time you have spent on helping me solving out the issues.

As an update, I have to let you know that the amp was bought 3 months ago, and have been played almost every day during the period. I have also played the half-stack live on an open-air concert for almost 2 hours master volume at 7. I have started the convert my guitar plugged in the low-sens input and used my Analogman modded TS-808 and Fulltone Fulldrive II in chain to get my sound. After a couple of songs, I have switched to high-sens output to be able to test the amps natural drive, pre-amp set at 7.

There is an audio clip which I have recorded in previous posts, for those of you who would like to listed to the problem I have described

As an update, I have tried the following, and obtained below results:
- Tried different set of pre-amp valves (ranging from ECC83's left from my JCM900 combo from 20 years ago, 12AX7's from my Fender Bassman 59 reissue, 12AT7, 5751 I am using in my Fender amp - in various positions. The pre-amp tubes which have contributed to decrease the "fizzy" sound I have described were the Fender stock 12AX7 and 12AY7 - which I think are less-gain valves compared to others.
- I live in Istanbul, Turkey - and the grid voltage is 220V. It may vary from the time of the day, can go lower and higher (-+ 5-6 volts) and I was using the amp set at voltage 230V. I have switched and tested it for short period at 220V - and the result was better. What I am looking for is the organic smooth distortion without that chainsaw in low-trebles.
- I have read all comments about the BIAS of the amp - as soon as I get a voltage-meter I will check the bias setting - and in the meantime will order SED "Winged-C" EL-34s. Looking at the stock EL-34 valves I cannot say the manufacturer since they are labelled as Marshall. I will also buy a couple of 12AX7's from different manufacturers to experiment.
- I used to have a JCM900 100W dual-reverb combo (4102 I guess) which I bought new in 1992 - but have sold it 2 years ago. I have not used any OD/distortion pedals at that time but switched to a Bassman 59 planning to play more classic-rock/blues then hord-rock but missed my original Marshall sound/crunch and invested to the JCM800. JCM900 was too gainy and I thought I could settle on JCM800 in between. THe JCM900 combo was also fitted with 75-watt celestions but I never have had the "fizzy" treble sound from them even bought new.
- I will be visiting US this week, and will be buying an attenuator - I will experiment the amp at high master-volume settings next-week and will share the results. Hopefully I will also check its bias in the meantime.

I am currently using the low-sens input MV at 1 and pre-amp at 8. In lower pre-amp settings the amp is thin because of the low MV. I drive the amp with the two pedals mentioned.

I will also experiment it without the bright-cap if I cannot get the result I am expecting following the re-bias and attenuator. Hopefully those 2 actions will bring my amp to the territory.

But, it still seems strange: I can't keep thinking that the increased MV wouldn't increase the fizzy noise I am complaining, too?

Thank you very much, once again.

Best Regards

Master volume at"1".It is'nt even on my man.Your not gonna get good tone at that wee volume period..Attenuating the crap out of it is not gonna get you there either.I think you need a 1 watt amp.