Looking for a direction

[Codeman]

Okay, so I think I have been asking the wrong questions and assuming the wrong ideas about amplifiers. Now with an open mind, I want to get a direction towards an amplifier (or amplifiers as it may be) that meets my actual needs.

At the moment, I am playing one thirty minute session a week at church in a very echo-y room to a group of 30-50 people. The band includes a guitarist playing through a PA system, three singers, a keyboardist which is heavy on the bass because we don't have a bassist, and a very enthusiastic drummer.

Now, when I'm not playing for the church, I am playing in an apartment at bedroom levels. The type of music I'm playing varies a lot. I could be writing a jazzy blues song, covering some classic rock like ZZ Top and Led Zeppelin, or playing metal like Metallica or Megadeth.

What I'm using right now is in my signature, but don't let that limit you. What amp (or amps) would fit my needs for 1000 or less out the door?

 

[Dogs of Doom]

What do you find lacking in the DSL 40C?

Is the DSL all stock? Stock speaker?

I'm personally not a big fan of combo amps (probably has more to do w/ the open back cab). Maybe try getting a matching 1x12 (sealed) cab. If the speaker is stock, maybe try a different speaker. One that seems popular is the 75 watt creamback. I'm not familiar w/ it, but, there's a lot of options out there.

Some people swear by the 65 watt Celestion, some the 25 watt greenback. I personally like the mix of a V30 & H30. The only thing to watch out w/ the V30/H30 combo is that the speakers are efficient & get loud quick.

Another thing is to try out different tubes. I hear people dropping a 5751 tube in V1 tames the amp down & makes it a bit more dynamic. You could try that in the PI as well. Do note that taming it down, you'll still have plenty of gain on tap. There's also a couple quick/simple mods that you can do, to help tame down the fizz factor (if that's an issue).

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a new amp, but, maybe you haven't explored the amp you have yet. You might want to save up for a bigger budget to get what you really want, but, you can upgrade the amp you've got for not too much investment, in the meanwhile...

 

[Codeman]

What do you find lacking in the DSL 40C?

Is the DSL all stock? Stock speaker?

I'm personally not a big fan of combo amps (probably has more to do w/ the open back cab). Maybe try getting a matching 1x12 (sealed) cab. If the speaker is stock, maybe try a different speaker. One that seems popular is the 75 watt creamback. I'm not familiar w/ it, but, there's a lot of options out there.

Some people swear by the 65 watt Celestion, some the 25 watt greenback. I personally like the mix of a V30 & H30. The only thing to watch out w/ the V30/H30 combo is that the speakers are efficient & get loud quick.

Another thing is to try out different tubes. I hear people dropping a 5751 tube in V1 tames the amp down & makes it a bit more dynamic. You could try that in the PI as well. Do note that taming it down, you'll still have plenty of gain on tap. There's also a couple quick/simple mods that you can do, to help tame down the fizz factor (if that's an issue).

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a new amp, but, maybe you haven't explored the amp you have yet. You might want to save up for a bigger budget to get what you really want, but, you can upgrade the amp you've got for not too much investment, in the meanwhile...

The DSL40C is bone stock. I picked it up used from GC for $500 after trying everything in the store with my MIM Strat (pre-Hotrails mod) because I found it was the only thing that seemed to satisfy my needs in the same <1000 budget. The only other amps that caught my attention at all was a Vox AC30 for it's clean tone and an Orange Crush 30RT.

I would like to get more "sparkle" in the cleans, get a tight and significant bass response, and some clarity even with distortion present. (Maybe this is the fizz everyone is talking about? It doesn't sound SS to me....)

I'm not opposed to modding the DSL40C, but I have never changed tubes or worked with high voltage. In fact, I'm a mechanical engineering student with just enough electrical knowledge to get myself in trouble.

As for the speaker and cabinet comment, I've thought about buying a convertable 2x12 Avatar cabinet with Hellatone 60/Hellatone 30 combo or maybe switching the internal speaker to a G12M-65

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Changing pre-amp tubes is plug & play. You just need to turn the amp off. Pull out the old tube, put the new one in & turn the amp on. If the amp has been on, make sure the tubes are cool enough to handle.

Changing power tubes requires biasing, once swapped out, so, we won't worry about that now.

The main thing about danger inside the amp is the capacitors. They contain high (lethal) voltage. Swapping pre-amp tubes, you will not be inside the chassis, where the capacitors are...

The DSL is designed to discharge the cap's after shut down. That said, when you bias an amp, the amp must be live, so cap's will be fully charged. Also, regardless of the internal safety bleed mechanism, it is always best to check to make sure cap's are indeed drained before you dig into the inside of the amp. (except when biasing, because the amp is live - just keep your fingers away from the cap's)

So, getting a 5751 tube can cost anywhere from $10-100. You can go cheap to test. Get a couple & try them in various positions (I'd recommend V1 & PI to start, especially if trying 2). You can also try other ECC variants, such as the 81, 82, etc. (12 AY/AU/AT 7 variants), but I find that they color the sound negatively, in what I've tried them in. As always YMMV though - might be worth it to get 1 or 2 of those other ones as well to test..

Speakers will make a huge impact in your sound...

 

[Codeman]

That sounds a lot easier than what I was expecting. Should I try the tubes first or would it be better to try out a speaker first?

EDIT: I just checked Amazon and it sounds like a lot of people are saying that the JJ 12AT7 is a pretty good 12A*7 tube to try in this scenario.

 

[rmlevasseur]

I think most people here would recommend the amp you already have for your situation. But if you want more versatility, you probably aren't going to find it in just a tube or speaker swap. I think you just need to sit yourself down in front of a bunch of stuff, but keep in mind that no amp can sound like everything, because the circuits are all different. Perhaps you should decide what side of the spectrum you prefer...clean, crunch or high gain, and hone in from there. Also, don't underestimate a good pedal with a clean amp.

It's also worth checking out modelers. An iPhone into the PA might be great for your church gig too, especially if the other guitarist is going straight in already.

 

[DirtySteve]

Might I suggest checking out a couple of threads here on the subject...

http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=53780&highlight=DSL40c

http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=49908

happy reading

 

[Codeman]

Might I suggest checking out a couple of threads here on the subject...

http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=53780&highlight=DSL40c

http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=49908

happy reading

So, what I'm getting is you sold your DSL40C to build a custom amplifier after trying all of the usually recommended solutions? That is pretty committed to tone my friend.

 

[DirtySteve]

I only posted that link because I thought it went on to discuss speakers. I didn't reread it...sorry.

 

[DirtySteve]

So, what I'm getting is you sold your DSL40C to build a custom amplifier after trying all of the usually recommended solutions? That is pretty committed to tone my friend.

Yes, lol...I did and I haven't had amp GAS since except for another build. I misunderstood your post earlier. I've also built a couple of guitars since then. I doubt I'll ever buy off the shelf again (amp or guitar) except for a Gibson (already planned) or some pedals.

 

[Codeman]

I wish I could do that but I'm more likely to electrocute myself.

On another note, I think the best action for me to take is to modify the DSL40C and concentrate my efforts on getting the red channel to be usable and in the territory of 80s metal/thrash. If the cleans get better that would be a plus, but I shouldn't expect it to sound like an AC30C2X when it is such a different amplifier. If I find I want better then I can save up for the AC30C2X.

Thanks for your help guys.

 

[chadjwil]

Sparkly cleans, tighter bass, more clarity...sounds like a 6L6 based amp to me. You may get be able to get there by modding, but if you have a G to drop on a new amp you might just wanna go play a few before you go spending a year playing around with the DSL.

Just a suggestion

 

[Codeman]

Sparkly cleans, tighter bass, more clarity...sounds like a 6L6 based amp to me. You may get be able to get there by modding, but if you have a G to drop on a new amp you might just wanna go play a few before you go spending a year playing around with the DSL.

Just a suggestion

I played a 6505+ combo, but it was a very confusing experience. I had heard it would have a great distortion channel, but when I dimed the pre-gain on the lead channel I was very disappointed. To reference the DSL, I felt like I was stuck on crunch or lead 1. I didn't have the master set high at the time nor would I be able to at home so figured it wasn't the one I was looking for.

That brings up a good question though, could I try putting 6l6 tubes in the DSL?

 

[paul-e-mann]

Alot of people really seem to like the creamback in the DSL40 amps, dont forget theres 2 different creambacks available, they have a 65 and 75 watt version, read the descriptions carefully and you'll see they are in fact different speaker designs. From what I read the G12H-75 looks interesting, a tighter low end than the G12M-65 creamback and a punchier more dynamic high end. This along with some 5751 tubes to make the red channel more useful might be the ticket.

I see youve mentioned 6L6 power tubes, that would be a big committment to mod your amp, you can get a pair of KT77 power tubes which are a drop in replacement for EL34, KT77 are described as sounding like a cross between 6L6 and 6550.

 

[Codeman]

Alot of people really seem to like the creamback in the DSL40 amps, dont forget theres 2 different creambacks available, they have a 65 and 75 watt version, read the descriptions carefully and you'll see they are in fact different speaker designs. From what I read the G12H-75 looks interesting, a tighter low end than the G12M-65 creamback and a punchier more dynamic high end. This along with some 5751 tubes to make the red channel more useful might be the ticket.

I see youve mentioned 6L6 power tubes, that would be a big committment to mod your amp, you can get a pair of KT77 power tubes which are a drop in replacement for EL34, KT77 are described as sounding like a cross between 6L6 and 6550.

I have been considering the creambacks but I go back and forth between the two. Most of the DSL mods on youtube aren't that great of sound quality. But! Then there is Sweetwater:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgLk8l3u3-k

Here is a bogner (4x12AX7 preamp with 2xKT88's) with g12H-75
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFD0ya0Wm74


DogsofDoom also recommended 5751's in VI and PI, so I think I might just take the hint on the preamp. About the KT77's, I saw a review online that said that it would tighten the bass and smooth the highs which sounds great.

At $250, this project doesn't seem half bad.

 

[chiliphil1]

I wish I could do that but I'm more likely to electrocute myself.

On another note, I think the best action for me to take is to modify the DSL40C and concentrate my efforts on getting the red channel to be usable and in the territory of 80s metal/thrash. If the cleans get better that would be a plus, but I shouldn't expect it to sound like an AC30C2X when it is such a different amplifier. If I find I want better then I can save up for the AC30C2X.

Thanks for your help guys.

I think you are on the right path here. I would have recommended a DSL series amp for you, but you've already got it! Follow the simple mods (speaker and tube) listed and you'll be set.. One other thing you could do, if you want more punch would be to get yourself either a 1x12 or 2x12 closed back cabinet from Avatar and toss the DSL on top of it. A second speaker would add a lot to the sound, especially if you have it in a closed cabinet.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

I'd still try getting some lower gain tubes for V1 & PI. Lowering the gain on V1 will make your clean channel headroom greater. It will also make your dirt channel start off cleaner. Putting a lower gain tube in the PI will give you more power stage headroom. For $20-30, it will give you a different amp. Those amps still have enough gain, when dropped, to go into metal territory.

I'd start there, as it's the cheapest route, that will get you started in looking at what you want. If you don't like it, then it might be best to start looking at other amps - maybe it's just not the amp for you. I'd hate for you to spend $100+/- on a speaker, for an amp you will just end up selling anyway - but, then, maybe changing both is what you need - but I'd still start w/ the lesser option 1st...

 

[Codeman]

...if you want more punch would be to get yourself either a 1x12 or 2x12 closed back cabinet from Avatar and toss the DSL on top of it. A second speaker would add a lot to the sound, especially if you have it in a closed cabinet....

Look here:

As for the speaker and cabinet comment, I've thought about buying a convertable 2x12 Avatar cabinet with Hellatone 60/Hellatone 30 combo or maybe switching the internal speaker

Since everyone is steering me towards the same things now, I think I have my answer as how to go about modding my DSL:

5751 in V1 and/or PI>g12H-75>KT77>Avatar Cabinet

 

[paul-e-mann]

Look here:



Since everyone is steering me towards the same things now, I think I have my answer as how to go about modding my DSL:

5751 in V1 and/or PI>g12H-75>KT77>Avatar Cabinet

That's a good plan, start with a full retube and see where that takes you. Speakers later if you feel you need to go further.

 

[Codeman]

Just for others, I found a really great comparison of some EL34/KT77 tubes with a numerical rating system:

http://www.thetubestore.com/Resources/Product-Reviews/EL34-6CA7-KT77-Tube-Reviews


I had been thinking about the JJ KT77's for $30 for a matched pair and it looks like they are top notch for the bang for buck!