Love My Dsl40c, But...

[BanditPanda]

I'm pretty sure the DSL has a preamp circuit designed to pull gain from the preamp tubes. In that sense you are not going to benefit much from an attenuator..

Source and Why ?
BP

 

[iron broadsword]

Just wondering why you guys are using the Weber Mass 200 for a 40 watt amp?
Weber Mass 50 is less expensive and made for 50 watt amps.
Thanks
BP

Suggesting the Mass, not the mass 200.. getting the wattage that best fits doesn't need to be said.

 

[MexicanMike]

I got rid of my dsl40c too. When I still lived with my mom I cranked that baby right up & it sounded awesome.

 

[Blueslicks]

Source and Why ?
BP

Source?

Help yourself, there's a whole internet out there.

But you can start with this.

https://www.amazon.ca/Circuit-Analysis-Legendary-Tube-Amplifier/dp/0976982250

As for why?

Well I'm not a tech but here's how I understand it.

A modern high gain circuit (like a DSL) is designed to have a clean power section with almost all induced PI distortion accomodating multiple gain stages. They achieve volume using wattage and a clean power section to make that PI distortion louder and remain unaffected using the headroom available. It's meant to sound similar at all volumes. Older circuits are much less complex, have a simpler single gain stage and only get truly dirty when the power section is pushed. With a NMV amp being played loud the result is a bit of PI distortion compounded by some power section breakup. Therefore, an attenuator with a NMV amp allows the amp being run hard to achieve the added power section breakup and then permit you to dial down the volume while retaining the breakup. Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume. So you are really just driving the power tubes hard and shortening their life to no purpose.

 

[Len]

Source and Why ?
BP

Many channel switching amps are designed to get distortion from the preamp. You wouldn't want the clean channel distorting.

 

[solarburn]

Just wondering why you guys are using the Weber Mass 200 for a 40 watt amp?
Weber Mass 50 is less expensive and made for 50 watt amps.
Thanks
BP

I use mine on my 100 watters and more. Not the DSL. It is an option with NMV amps and MV amps. It will work fine on lesser watts though.

 

[Garrett]

The Weber site recommended getting a 100 watt attenuator for a 50 watt amp.

Not saying the Weber Mass is bad, but the MassLite is definitely a step down. You get what you pay for.

 

[BanditPanda]

Source?

Help yourself, there's a whole internet out there.

But you can start with this.

https://www.amazon.ca/Circuit-Analysis-Legendary-Tube-Amplifier/dp/0976982250

As for why?

Well I'm not a tech but here's how I understand it.

A modern high gain circuit (like a DSL) is designed to have a clean power section with almost all induced PI distortion accomodating multiple gain stages. They achieve volume using wattage and a clean power section to make that PI distortion louder and remain unaffected using the headroom available. It's meant to sound similar at all volumes. Older circuits are much less complex, have a simpler single gain stage and only get truly dirty when the power section is pushed. With a NMV amp being played loud the result is a bit of PI distortion compounded by some power section breakup. Therefore, an attenuator with a NMV amp allows the amp being run hard to achieve the added power section breakup and then permit you to dial down the volume while retaining the breakup. Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume. So you are really just driving the power tubes hard and shortening their life to no purpose.

Thank you Blueslicks !
BP

 

[BanditPanda]

Suggesting the Mass, not the mass 200.. getting the wattage that best fits doesn't need to be said.

Well yeah it does 'cause the subject is the DSL40C and the Mass 200 has come into the conversation...hence the inquiry.

 

[BanditPanda]

In the " Who Knew " department it turns out the attenuators serve no purpose on amps with what is called " Modern Voicing ". Now at the moment I'm uncertain as to whether there is a date of manufacture associated with MV, if all amp brands now a days are MV'd or how one would identify them if it wasn't indicated in the model name but in any event thanks to this thread I won't have to spend my hard earned money on an attenuator !! :>) ( because the DSL40 is a MV'd amp.) Who knew ? lol
Thanks again.
BP

 

[iron broadsword]

Any tube amp, modern voicing or not, sounds better when the master is up on 3 or highter.. The output tubes just make the tone juicy. It's a thing... so yeah not useless at all.

As for whether to get the mass 200, or smaller.. you double the wattage of the attenuator for the size of the amp. 100w amp = 200w attenuator.. so 40w = mass100. But if you think you might ever have a 100w you might as well get the mass 200 for the money just so you only ever have to buy one.

 

[BanditPanda]

Any tube amp, modern voicing or not, sounds better when the master is up on 3 or highter.. The output tubes just make the tone juicy. It's a thing... so yeah not useless at all.

As for whether to get the mass 200, or smaller.. you double the wattage of the attenuator for the size of the amp. 100w amp = 200w attenuator.. so 40w = mass100. But if you think you might ever have a 100w you might as well get the mass 200 for the money just so you only ever have to buy one.

Obviously there are 2 posters who have different opinions as to whether an attenuator has any good effect on an MV amp.
Blueslicks reasoning seems solid to me. What is your reasoning ?

 

[iron broadsword]

It's well documented that amps can sound harsh and fuzzy until the output tubes are working hard enough to turn the treble into juicy. The amp's tone overall just comes alive. Gotta experience it.. get your amp warmed up and play it on .5 then on 3.5 (on the master). If you can't hear the difference I can't help you.

 

[mudman30]

I definitely experienced it with the dsl201 with the master run high today. The clean channel felt much more NMV style. I might have to hook up my dr z. airbrake and see what I hear.

 

[Blueslicks]

Obviously there are 2 posters who have different opinions as to whether an attenuator has any good effect on an MV amp.
Blueslicks reasoning seems solid to me. What is your reasoning ?

I think you will find an attenuator works to the degree iron broadside has suggested as making things a bit "juicier" on earlier MV amps such as JMP, JCM800 and JCM900 series amps. The circuit is still less complex than a modern high gain amp with those models...to a point. As far as a DSL, JVM etc style modern high gain circuit...All I can say is you don't need an attenuator to try cranking those amps to maximum volume. Use your ears and I'd be surprised if you walk away convinced you have found any sort of sweet spot by diming it. Sure they get louder but not with any truly discernable improvement in tone. At least not like a NMV amp achieves.

Why?

Can't tell you, I'm not a tech.

 

[jimmyjames]

My DSL15H sounds fuller with MV at around 7, too loud at home without an attenuator. Triode setting doesn't cut much volume and lacks the punch of Pentode. I can get some good tones running it thru an Aracom DAG, which came up at a decent price on the 'bay a coupla yrs ago.

 

[BanditPanda]

It's well documented that amps can sound harsh and fuzzy until the output tubes are working hard enough to turn the treble into juicy. The amp's tone overall just comes alive. Gotta experience it.. get your amp warmed up and play it on .5 then on 3.5 (on the master). If you can't hear the difference I can't help you.

IBS..Please read the post from Blueslicks which I have reprinted below (without permission lol). This is the matter under discussion and if Blueslicks understanding of the circuitry/design on Modern Voiced amps ( and the DSCL40C in particular ) is factual then there is no question / doubt that an attenuator on MV amps add nothing desirable.
See below:
A modern high gain circuit (like a DSL) is designed to have a clean power section with almost all induced PI distortion accomodating multiple gain stages. They achieve volume using wattage and a clean power section to make that PI distortion louder and remain unaffected using the headroom available. It's meant to sound similar at all volumes. Older circuits are much less complex, have a simpler single gain stage and only get truly dirty when the power section is pushed. With a NMV amp being played loud the result is a bit of PI distortion compounded by some power section breakup. Therefore, an attenuator with a NMV amp allows the amp being run hard to achieve the added power section breakup and then permit you to dial down the volume while retaining the breakup. Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume. So you are really just driving the power tubes hard and shortening their life to no purpose.

 

[BanditPanda]

I think you will find an attenuator works to the degree iron broadside has suggested as making things a bit "juicier" on earlier MV amps such as JMP, JCM800 and JCM900 series amps. The circuit is still less complex than a modern high gain amp with those models...to a point. As far as a DSL, JVM etc style modern high gain circuit...All I can say is you don't need an attenuator to try cranking those amps to maximum volume. Use your ears and I'd be surprised if you walk away convinced you have found any sort of sweet spot by diming it. Sure they get louder but not with any truly discernable improvement in tone. At least not like a NMV amp achieves.

Why?

Can't tell you, I'm not a tech.

Thanks BL for further clarification however because we are talking about circuit design we are also speaking of facts.
My understanding of your explanation is that the specific circuitry of Modern Voiced amps, as you put it : quote "Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume." unquote.

The only question is : Is that quote factual ?
Thanks for taking the time.
BP

 

[iron broadsword]

IBS..Please read the post from Blueslicks which I have reprinted below (without permission lol). This is the matter under discussion and if Blueslicks understanding of the circuitry/design on Modern Voiced amps ( and the DSCL40C in particular ) is factual then there is no question / doubt that an attenuator on MV amps add nothing desirable.
See below:
A modern high gain circuit (like a DSL) is designed to have a clean power section with almost all induced PI distortion accomodating multiple gain stages. They achieve volume using wattage and a clean power section to make that PI distortion louder and remain unaffected using the headroom available. It's meant to sound similar at all volumes. Older circuits are much less complex, have a simpler single gain stage and only get truly dirty when the power section is pushed. With a NMV amp being played loud the result is a bit of PI distortion compounded by some power section breakup. Therefore, an attenuator with a NMV amp allows the amp being run hard to achieve the added power section breakup and then permit you to dial down the volume while retaining the breakup. Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume. So you are really just driving the power tubes hard and shortening their life to no purpose.

I'm not talking about power tube distortion, I'm talking about the point at which the power section makes the amp come alive. If you're not using the amp at loud enough volume to do that then you might as well have a solid state power section such as in Marshall's AVT range because the power tubes are not benefiting the tone whatsoever. When you get them pushing enough while the power section is still clean, it rounds off the harshness of the preamp and it the amp begins to breath and react to your playing differently. Complexity in the preamp to make it sound the same at all volumes is bs, and I mean no disrespect but I just know it's not like that. You're talking about a slightly different tone stack and different negative feedback in the power section than older style amps. The DSL is designed to sound good before power tube distortion, yes, but all tube amps sound better cranked to the point where the power tubes come alive.

 

[Blueslicks]

Thanks BL for further clarification however because we are talking about circuit design we are also speaking of facts.
My understanding of your explanation is that the specific circuitry of Modern Voiced amps, as you put it : quote "Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume." unquote.

The only question is : Is that quote factual ?
Thanks for taking the time.
BP

Yes, I stand by my assertion that "Using an attenuator with a modern circuit will simply be taking the same sound you would have had at low volume from high volume back to the low volume again. No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume."

Last time I am going to tell you BP...I am not a tech. My observations are based on myself playing the amps I speak of and in the manner I speak of. I have played (and still do if I am too lazy to bring a plexi to rehearsal) JVM, DSL, TSL and a Mesa Triple Rec numerous times. Those amongst other high gain amps such as 5150's, Diezel and Diamond. Some of those are available to use at the rehearsal studio I play at and alternately I have friends who own others which I have at times borrowed and played loud for extended periods. I repeat, I play very, very loud and am not talking noodling for five minutes on the amps I speak of in a music store or someones house at low volume.

Again..."No change in the breakup/distortion just the volume"

IME, fact.

NMV plexi circuit?

Play it on low volume and then play it loud and there is a MASSIVE change in the breakup/distortion.

Fact.

Now use an attenuator on a plexi, turn the amp way up and dial down the attenuator to low volume. Then try the same scenario on a modern high gain amp.

Get back to me and let me know which amp had any discernible effect from the attenuator being used.

I think iron broadside is speaking more of what I would personally call "blooming" in regards to making the power tubes come alive. And I just don't hear the same "blooming" of power tubes in the modern high gain circuits when those amps are turned from moderate volume to extremely loud. To my ears those amps just get louder as you turn it up. And I have certainly never heard gain increase like it does on a NMV amp when doing so. As I mentioned earlier that "bloom" is still evident (to a point) on earlier MV circuits like a JCM800 or JCM900 so I don't think the MV itself is a factor. I believe it is the circuit itself and the way the power section is designed to run clean on a modern high gain amp. And from what I can understand given what I have researched on my own as well as heard from more knowledgeable people than myself, it is an intentional design to accommodate a tighter gain structure primarily derived from the preamp section in multi channel amps where an alternate clean sound can be achieved.

My suggestion?

Play the amps yourself.