Marshall 1968 plexi(original) vs Marshall 1968 Plexi Clone

[gbravo]

Love the comments. I own two 50W plexi's - a 68 & 69. I also own a 1987X 50W reissue. The reissue sounds nothing like the plexi's. Not even close...

 

[sri]

What would be the major differences if the Marshall 1968 plexi clone has the period correct parts-componets as the original Marshall 1968 plexi original my opinion would be hype

The price of an original in original condition is in large part a function of supply and demand driven by collectors and wealthy individuals after something rare. Having built a few clones and having had feedback on them I am sure a modern build using modern componants cant be differentiated from an original by ear, by us mere mortals at least, though it wil be more reliable and a lot cheaper. OK a copy wont have the mojo but if you want the sound then its a good option.

 

[pat_rocks]

This is as close as Ill ever get to an original 1966 JTM45 head.
This is a 2013 Metropoulos LTD ED GMP45 head. Mather JTM45/100 TVB repro cabinet with EC Collins Pinstripe cloth, and loaded with 4 25w Pulsonic Celestion G12Ms, 75hz.

All NOS tubes. 1958 Marconi Osram KT66s, Mullard 10M Master Series Gold Pins in V1-V2. A 1957 Mullard Mc1 Longplate in V3, and a 1961 Fat Base GZ34 Rectifier tube.

Its got great cleans, and the OD, especially with a good pedal, is one of the best overdriven tones on an amp. It pairs great with an old 1989 The Guv'nor. The Guv'nor keeps the original character of the amp, but gives me alot more gain if wanted. Like a JCM 800.

Man this bright cap is thick ! the build is extremely clean love it. Are those pec pots ?

 

[pittbull]

SRI

 

[pat_rocks]

I've never heard of "dead ass nuts transformers", do they have a website?

metropoulos amps used to sell special custom made transformers and i believe they were made by Heyboer.
David bray amps uses also Heyboer transformers for his 68 van halen amps or at least he used them in the bray 4550 he certainly uses them too bray coco.

Heyboer makes custom transformers so it really depends on the designs of those ordering them.

 

[vivanchenko]

Perhaps but capacitors really affect the way you sound here is a clear example with the same amp with same settings but different caps with the same values :

The truth is that we have no idea what are we listening to really. The video could have been edited and we don't know whether or not all of those caps are the same values.

For me the fact is that I did buy the mustards in the past like crazy untill my own blind tests showed that there is no difference between Mustards and Mallorys. I could feel a difference between polyester and polyethylene film caps, but my wife and kids couldn't hear it...

I have built quite a few clones and I experimented with them to my heart's content and my previous posts summarize the results. I still have 2 Marshall clones which came out so good that I will never part with them. One of them is the Plexi.

Good clones will cost as much to build as the reissues. It's not as easy to build them as it might seem and you have to know a few things which are not that obvious in the beginning. I remember Bonomassa complained that all clones he had lost about 50% of volume in a year. It does happen to clones very often and there are ways of avoiding this.

 

[pat_rocks]

The truth is that we have no idea what are we listening to really. The video could have been edited and we don't know whether or not all of those caps are the same values.

For me the fact is that I did buy the mustards in the past like crazy untill my own blind tests showed that there is no difference between Mastards and Mallorys. I could feel a difference between polyester and polyethylene film caps, but my wife and kids couldn't hear it...

I have built quite a few clones and I experimented with them to my heart's content and my previous posts summarize the results. I still have 2 Marshall clones which came out so good that I will never part with them. One of them is the Plexi.

Good clones will cost as much to build as the reissues. It's not as easy as it might seem and you have to know a few things which are not that obvious in the beginning. I remember Bonomassa complained that all clones he had lost about 50% of volume in a year. It does happen to clones very often and there are ways of avoiding this.

So it is the same amp where the caps are replaced with the same value caps but with another composition. However as many said it the variation in values could cause the tone change however the caps have the same value on paper.

Well the mallorys are extremely close to the mustards. John suhr uses them in his sl67 and sl68 and even friedman and many plexi cloners use them.

sozo are just a little brighter than those.

The differences are minimalistic and mustard are not worth it unless you really want the mojo. Most people will not even notice the difference but we as players hear some variations. You really need to be a tone addict to hear the differences.

One big example at how components materials can affect sound greatly are germanium diodes instead of silicon diodes for pedals.

There are some materials which sound extremely close and you'll not hear much difference. I still think that caps in guitars aren't as tone changing as in amps.

 

[Derrick111]

Some interesting comments. I wonder how many of them came from people with actual experience owning or spending significant time playing a '68 plexi?

 

[neikeel]

Fascinating to read so entrenched views and very strong views (but I guess there are some good sets of ears here!).
We have chewed the fat on this a few times (ask Roe or Shatki who frequent here or George Metropoulos or Greg Germino who both build fantastic clone type amps).
I have owned many original plexis in various states of repair (and disrepair pre and post restoration) and built dozens of clones. I have used George's Metro transformers, Chris Merren's, Brian Wallace's Marstran, Classic Tone, Drake (original and RI) and Dagnall (original and RI). Mostly I use Iskra and Piher resistors, Mustard and Dubilier caps. On many occasions I have had a really good original plexi and cloned it (eg my pair of 68 Superleads, my 67 block end Superleads, 45/100s, several 45s and 50s)
The answer to get really close is that most of them are the sum of a of the parts, every deviation from the original part or spec takes you away from an original, that includes filter caps, potentiometers and even wire types. Of course you also need the glassware to match. You can compensate for some of the factors by tweaking certain cap values. George uses a spectrum analyser to tweak certain cap values to nail the 68/12series tones and response (eg the PI input cap) or swapping out the 270k mixers on a JTM50 clone for 470k in the absence of the original RS carbon pots which tend to test higher than spec and definitely contribute.
Closest I've got is my 18w trem which uses original RS transformers and mainly Piihers, a few carbon comps, mustards and ceramics as per orignals followed closely by my JH spec 45/100 - which uses Marstran iron both of which I retain for personal use together with my favourite '65 JTM45.

 

[chocol8]

I don't have any 60's Marshall experience, but I do have plenty of 60's and 70's Fender experience side by side with new build clones and rebuilds/mods.

Old speakers clearly sound different than new. If you play the amps through the same speakers, most of the remaining differences come down to component tolerances and component drift.

Old carbon resistors tend to increase resistance with age. I actively have a early 70's SF Twin Reverb that I am about to do a full rebuild on because of this. I have owned this particular amp for over 30 years and can tell you the values have drifted significantly in that time. I think one or more of the coupling caps have drifted as well, perhaps both capacitance and ESR. I will measure them once I pull them off the board, which itself is pretty bad and is likely a bit conductive. In short, this amp doesn't sound like it did 30 years ago let alone when new.

OTOH, if I were to remove all the caps and resistors, measure them, and build a clone with less than 1% variations in MEASURED (not nominal!!!) values, I am quite certain it would sound the same. Actually, if I used metal film resistors except the few places where CC's might influence the tone, it would sound the same with a lot less hissssssss!

There is no magic in the old components that can't be replicated today. I have done enough A/B listening and blind testing to know I can hear different component values, but I can't hear the difference between old and new of similar construction with the same measured values.

Maybe the 68 Marshall amps were built with something special that can't be replicated, but I highly doubt it. Even then, any difference will be very subtle and will disappear with a little EQ and other adjustments. In other words, if you heard a single clip (not an a/b) no one could reliably tell if it is a real vintage amp or a high quality clone. Too many other variables.

 

[Amadeus91]

I left no stone unturned for my '64 JTM45 clone, transformers included.
The PT in now was custom made but will be replaced with a real RS PT shown in pics. The
custom PT in it now, has a working voltage selector, like the original ones.
The OT in now is a RS but it is not period correct (later version) so it will be replaced with this one.
I also used a Radiospares choke as well.
The board is also a vintage Radiospares.
The presence cap is not the typical mustard but instead a square red RS cap, I saw some amps from this time frame with these, so I tracked one down.
The "top hat" diode is also a vintage one, from I believe '65 or '66.

 

[vivanchenko]

I left no stone unturned for my '64 JTM45 clone, transformers included.
The PT in now was custom made but will be replaced with a real RS PT shown in pics. The
custom PT in it now, has a working voltage selector, like the original ones.
The OT in now is a RS but it is not period correct (later version) so it will be replaced with this one.
I also used a Radiospares choke as well.
The board is also a vintage Radiospares.
The presence cap is not the typical mustard but instead a square red RS cap, I saw some amps from this time frame with these, so I tracked one down.
The "top hat" diode is also a vintage one, from I believe '65 or '66.

Well, that is impressive. How much did you pay for it all?

 

[pat_rocks]

Fascinating to read so entrenched views and very strong views (but I guess there are some good sets of ears here!).
We have chewed the fat on this a few times (ask Roe or Shatki who frequent here or George Metropoulos or Greg Germino who both build fantastic clone type amps).
I have owned many original plexis in various states of repair (and disrepair pre and post restoration) and built dozens of clones. I have used George's Metro transformers, Chris Merren's, Brian Wallace's Marstran, Classic Tone, Drake (original and RI) and Dagnall (original and RI). Mostly I use Iskra and Piher resistors, Mustard and Dubilier caps. On many occasions I have had a really good original plexi and cloned it (eg my pair of 68 Superleads, my 67 block end Superleads, 45/100s, several 45s and 50s)
The answer to get really close is that most of them are the sum of a of the parts, every deviation from the original part or spec takes you away from an original, that includes filter caps, potentiometers and even wire types. Of course you also need the glassware to match. You can compensate for some of the factors by tweaking certain cap values. George uses a spectrum analyser to tweak certain cap values to nail the 68/12series tones and response (eg the PI input cap) or swapping out the 270k mixers on a JTM50 clone for 470k in the absence of the original RS carbon pots which tend to test higher than spec and definitely contribute.
Closest I've got is my 18w trem which uses original RS transformers and mainly Piihers, a few carbon comps, mustards and ceramics as per orignals followed closely by my JH spec 45/100 - which uses Marstran iron both of which I retain for personal use together with my favourite '65 JTM45.

talking about the radiospares transformer :

i currently have those for my build : https://gdsamps.com/parts/

they are made by heyboer. I wonder if anyone there gave them a shot ?

 

[vivanchenko]

So it is the same amp where the caps are replaced with the same value caps but with another composition. However as many said it the variation in values could cause the tone change however the caps have the same value on paper.

Well the mallorys are extremely close to the mustards. John suhr uses them in his sl67 and sl68 and even friedman and many plexi cloners use them.

sozo are just a little brighter than those.

The differences are minimalistic and mustard are not worth it unless you really want the mojo. Most people will not even notice the difference but we as players hear some variations. You really need to be a tone addict to hear the differences.

One big example at how components materials can affect sound greatly are germanium diodes instead of silicon diodes for pedals.

There are some materials which sound extremely close and you'll not hear much difference. I still think that caps in guitar aren't as affected as in amps.

I believe that all polyester film caps sound very similar. At least it alwayes was the case in my experience. I believe that any differences you can hear are due to value variations within tolerances. It is almost impossible to find two identical caps with identical capacitance. The Mustards and Sozos are not worth it. Waste of money. WIMA MKS2, Vishay MKT and Mallorys are every bit as good and they are way, way cheaper.

 

[AustinPaul]

I've got a JTM45. I have zero illusions of its superiority to well-made clones, and inferiority to extra special clones.

Additionally - For 20+ years, I played all sorts of heads (800, 210h,Origin <sic>, Orange Thunderverb, Budda 30, Mesa Lonestar, and more) through my 80s 1960A. I RARELY got what I thought was good tone. Surely it wasn't for lack of trying. What I never did was to run my plexi through it as I'd sold it. Though the cab said "Marshall", it was never my style - and I'll freely admit that it was mostly to do with the 75Ts.

It wasn't until I got my JTM45 and a basketweave 4x12 made to 60s 1960ax specs that I achieved THAT sound. It's heads and tails above any other Marshall rig I've ever owned. Now, not all situations call for that rig, but when I call on it, it delivers in spades.

It really comes down to aesthetics, resale, and the biggest one - one's mental state!

Me, I'm mostly a sucker for a label, even if it's not the best according to some "spectrum analyzer", but only up to a point, to wit, my 80s 1960A.

If you've read this far, I envy you. You have more attention span than me; and I thank you.

 

[chocol8]

The Mustards and Sozos are not worth it.

Premium brand caps can be worth it for resale value even if they sound the same.

 

[AustinPaul]

Coming from a field of electronics, I agree with the mindset that it's mostly hype. I do think the transformers of the era, which couple directly to the speaker, could have some uniqueness, due to the earlier manufacturing methods and materials, but nothing significant. This is why I chose to go with Marshall reissues for my SLP, JTM, and 2203. They're still true Marshalls, built to the same spec's using new components, and at a much more reasonable price than an overpriced vintage Marshall with deteriorating components.

This is my exact thinking.

 

[Browneyesound]

I’ve tweaked my clones, with a few vintage capacitors, but mostly playing with component values.

I like how they sound, but have never compared them directly with a real vintage Marshall.

Ignorance is bliss in my case, I think.

 

[MullardFillmore]

Correct component values and all that are a given. That being said you need:

A good OT, I have a Merren in my 67 and you can’t tell the difference.

The proper choke, it WILL affect the sound

Correct voltages

 

[Amadeus91]

Well, that is impressive. How much did you pay for it all?

Not as much as one would think and not even remotely close to a vintage one.
Started collecting parts 10-12 years ago, when prices were great.
Also back then would buy "Job Lots" from eBay UK, I always found gems in those collections. Those job lots were always bargains.
This also allowed me to do quite a bit of trading for parts. Those days were great, you could
buy/trade for whatever you needed, reasonably.

Now, tubes and Celestions.............................. That is a whole different kettle of fish.
Bloody Hell!!!!!!!!!!!!

Both pair are from 1966.