Marshall JCM 900 4100 blowing fuses

[Hapa]

Sirs;

I have on my bench a GCM 900 that is blowing fuses immediately on power up. I removed all the tubes and it still does it. The standby switch position makes no difference. I’m feeling this is a transformer issue, but there are no telltail Signs such as discolored windings or evidence of too much heat. Can anyone offer me some ideas of what to check?

Thank you

 

[V-man]

Possibly unrelated but years back my 4100 issue was traced back to some arcing at the 2-way impedance switch… an oddball part the 900s had instead of the 3-way rotary switch you typically see on Marshalls.

 

[Purgasound]

1. Should be posted in the Workbench section
2. Always give specific model numbers. There are three completely different JCM900 models, MKIII, DR, and SL-X, all of which could have a different failure.
3. It's good that you've got the tubes removed. If you don't have a lightbulb limiter or current limiting device troubleshooting will involve a lot of fuses. I would tell you to start disconnecting secondaries from the PT but I can't speculate on what else could be wrong unless we know the model. Generally speaking though, the 900 series shares the same PT so each will have 3 windings, one for the heaters, one for the HT "high tension" supply and one for the LT "low tension" which powers the switching IC's. If the standby switch is off but the fuse still blows you've likely ruled out the HT secondary. Although the standby switch only lifts one side of the HT secondary and the bias supply is tapped off this line prior to the switch. If there is a short in the bias circuit it could pop the mains fuse. The diodes for the high voltage rectifier need to be checked. Failed filter caps. Could be the heater winding. Where do you want to start?
I would disconnect the secondaries first and power the unit on. With the secondaries disconnected you can rule out if the transformer itself is shorted. Then you can power down and reconnect each secondary one by one until you've determined which one is bad. Noting that the heaters don't have any secondary connections in any model except the 900 SL-X so those might not need to be disconnected in the other models.

 

[Hapa]

I’m not entirely sure how to determine the exact model but I can supply the following;
It is a 100 watt hi-gain dual reverb
Chassis end sticker says 4001 U
Preamp board says 94 1-0
Speaker Jack board says A.I

It should be noted the unit came to me with EL34s that tested approximately 30,30,50,50 where replacement is indicated at 75 on my machine. It arrived with a blown mains fuse,and,get this……the first spkr fuse was 5 amp and the second was 20 amp which seems likely to have caused or contributed to the amps present condition. I have tested all diodes and resistors on the board and tube sockets with nothing remarkable appearing.

 

[Purgasound]

Take it to a qualified technician.

 

[Hapa]

That would be ideal,but there’s no one remotely qualified nearby,and I’d rather not endure the expense and risk of shipping.
Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[79JMP100]

ten bucks says the PT is gone, with some possible collateral damage from the hideously oversized fuses... It might be hard to obtain a replacement 100W PT for that unit at this point...

Do as suggested: take a good picture of the circuit board where the PT connects, then carefully remove all of the secondary wires from the board. Cap the wires, put the proper fuse in the holder, and switch it on. If it blows the fuse, you have your answer- the PT is gone. If it does not blow, then your trouble is downstream from there, and will require technician style troubleshooting...

 

[danfrank]

You are correct, the model number is 4100, which is the DR model jcm900. I don’t know if you edited that in or not…
Your PT is most likely blown because the bias “X” cap blew out and shorted, which basically shorts the HV winding to ground. Or better stated, what is supposed to be the “x” cap was replaced sometime in the past with a non “x” cap and that shorted… A common problem with jcm900 amps because the engineers at Marshall back then were numbnutz and designed a severely compromised bias supply in order to save a few pennies for the bean counters.
So replace C15 on the schematic and then power up and see if fuse still blows. If fuse blows, you have a bad PT.

Schematic:

https://www.thetubestore.com/lib/thetubestore/schematics/Marshall/Marshall-JCM900-Dualrev-100W-4100-Schematic.pdf

Replacement PT:

British 900 100W Power Transformer (Direct Replacement for the Marshall® JCM900)

British 900 Style 100W Power Transformer. (Direct Replacement for the Marshall® JCM900)Please use caution when referencing these wiring diagrams. Mojo transformers have undergone various changes over the years and these wiring diagrams are meant to aid in the purchasing process and represent...

www.mojotone.com

I had to do this about a week ago where the PT on a 4100 blew. I was fancy though and installed a small dedicated bias transformer in the amp because C15 is prone to going bad. Marshall should put me on their payroll for solving their fuckups.

 

[Purgasound]

Don't blindly replace parts.

Replacing C15 and still blowing a mains fuse doesn't automatically equate to a bad PT.

The OP is already lost in the woods. Let's not give them even worse directions.

 

[V-man]

That would be ideal,but there’s no one remotely qualified nearby,and I’d rather not endure the expense and risk of shipping.
Anyone else have any ideas?

Drive it to over to the next city’s/town’s tech.

 

[Purgasound]

So replace C15 on the schematic and then power up and see if fuse still blows. If fuse blows, you have a bad PT.

I had to do this about a week ago where the PT on a 4100 blew. I was fancy though and installed a small dedicated bias transformer in the amp because C15 is prone to going bad. Marshall should put me on their payroll for solving their fuckups.

I have to come back to this...
People that don't know any better can take bad advice to heart and make things worse.

You should be referring to the part as what it is, not by a reference number. I know what part you mean and C15 is the part number for SEMKO and CSA. So what if the OP is in Europe or USA? Then they need to look for C12 as it's listed ont eh schematic for the rest of the world. So by blindly following advice they could change the wrong part and end up attempting to replace the PT just to wind up back to square one. This is not helpful.

So what is this part? It is the first capacitor in series with the negative voltage supply for the bias circuit. Why could it fail? It's a capacitor rated at 250V and the supply for the circuit is taken off one leg of the high voltage winding prior to the standby switch.

It seems like overkill to install a secondary transformer for a bias supply. Marshall and many other manufacturers have taken negative voltage supplies right of the HV tap in many circuits. If the capacitor fails it can be replaced with one rated for 400 or 500V and it will never see anything close to that voltage.

When someone can't identify something as simple as the model number printed on the front of the amplifier, it doesn't sound like a good idea to start getting them to put their hands into an amp to start messing with high voltage like this. A novice should be able to disconnect secondaries and see if a fuse blows or not. If they can't use this primitive method of determining PT failure I don't think they need to continue poking around in there.

The best advice you can give this person is to take it to a qualified technician.

 

[Hapa]

Fuse blows immediately with all secondaries disconnected. Should I replace C-15 when/if installing new PT ?

 

[Purgasound]

Fuse blows immediately with all secondaries disconnected. Should I replace C-15 when/if installing new PT ?

It couldn't hurt to use 47 microfarad (correction: see below, I was incorrect this part is listed as 47 nanofarad) capacitor with a 500 volt rating. As I said before, you need to verify C15 is the correct part. C15 is part of the bias circuit for Semko and Canada. Everywhere else it's going to be listed as C12.

Before you stick a New power transformer in the amplifier you need to determine why it blew. If you don't properly identify the fault condition that caused the failure you'll end up burning up the replacement power transformer as well. The hunt continues

 

[danfrank]

Replace C15 AND the power transformer. They’re both bad.
Don’t listen to the haters, they all have their dicks in their hand saying they’re the biggest…

 

[danfrank]

This cap…

 

[danfrank]

It couldn't hurt to use 47 microfarad capacitor with a 500 volt rating. As I said before, you need to verify C15 is the correct part. C15 is part of the bias circuit for Semko and Canada. Everywhere else it's going to be listed as C12.

Before you stick a New power transformer in the amplifier you need to determine why it blew. If you don't properly identify the fault condition that caused the failure you'll end up burning up the replacement power transformer as well. The hunt continues

Actually it could hurt because 47uf is to big to pass charge to the bias supply. Standard in this application is 47nf, not uf…
Remember, the root of this problem is Marshall being too cheap to install a proper bias winding on the PT…

 

[Purgasound]

Actually it could hurt because 47uf is to big to pass charge to the bias supply. Standard in this application is 47nf, not uf…
Remember, the root of this problem is Marshall being too cheap to install a proper bias winding on the PT…

You're right. It's 47 nanofarad.

I still don't see the issue with using the HV winding. The bias circuit just puts negative voltage on the control grid. There's barely any current draw. Cathode coupled bias circuits are extremely common.

 

[Purgasound]

Replace C15 AND the power transformer. They’re both bad.
Don’t listen to the haters, they all have their dicks in their hand saying they’re the biggest…

Who's hating? Sounds like projection, my friend. We're just having a discussion.

As you continue to refer to C15, have you verified the OP is working an a SEMKO/CSA rear board? Otherwise that's not the correct part.
Did you verify which rear board he has?

The first photo shows the SEMKO/CSA variant board. Two different part numbers.



Below is the board standard for the rest of the world.

 

[Hapa]

The cap in question is C 12 in this amp,and reads 46nF on my Tenma cap meter (in circuit) The board states the following,
PCO112
Issue 345
SLX a-60-00
I understand the need to change it to a 500volt cap.
D6 and D7 appear to be bad (not sure how I missed them the first time) Again,all other diodes and all resistors are within spec (in circuit) It’s become personal at this point.

 

[Purgasound]

Now you're on to something. Typically with bad diodes you would just lose the mains fuse but if somebody replaced it with a 20 amp fuse then it would have been what caused the PT to burn up. Ensure the properly rated fuses are installed prior to energizing the amplifier with a new power transformer and those diodes replaced. Failures can cascade into more failures so it would be heavily advisable to use a current limiting device. Sounds like you've already got some decent test equipment so I think it's a good idea for you to build one. It's not difficult, and in the most basic sense it's just a filament bulb in series with a hot wire. I'm sure you can find some DIY videos on YouTube on how to build one. This way the startup the equipment and the bulb will take the hit if there is excessive current draw and you won't have to replace a bunch of fuses if there are still other issues present. Good luck