More questions about switching over to tubes

[chiliphil1]

With five pedals between your guitar and amplifier input (wah, overdrive, noise gate, tuner, signal pad), and with the POD in the loop, it seems like you are gonna be doing a lot of switching. I obviously don't know what you are doing mid-song, but it's something to think about.

You are correct, it is alot to do. The signal pad would be for clean, when recording we found that the best clean we got from the DSL was the OD channel with an overdrive but the guitar turned down. The signal pad would do the same thing just at the push of a button rather than having to turn the knob. The overdrive would stay on all the time, so I would only have to hit one pedal for that, however the pod is another story, I guess to go to clean I would need to hit the signal pad switch and one switch on the pod, to go back to dirty I would have to hit them both again. It might be trouble but I THINK it will be ok.

To increase the volume for solos, you can use a good EQ pedal place either in the loop or between the guitar and amplifier instrument input. I used to do this with a Boss PQ-4 Parametric Equalizer pedal with good results. Or, as you mentioned, you can buy a second OD pedal and use it as a boost. Volume pedals are another option, but it might be a little more work on your part.

Yep, I think the volume pedal option could work but indeed it would just be one more thing I have to do. I think I am going to connect the pod in the 4 cord method which would allow me to boost the volume, it also has wah so I would be able to eliminate one of the pedals. If that doesn't work out I can definitely look into the things you have suggested.

But from what you are trying to do, I kinda feel that your expectations and impressions of a single-channel amplifier like the JCM800 2203 might be a little short of what you might need. Again, I don't know anything about your band, the songs you play, or what you are doing in a mid-song. The JCM 800 2203 is a great amp, no doubt, but for what you are describing, I'm still thinking that you are gonna need something else. I'm sure it's got the tone you say you like, but the lack in versatility is more my point, and from what I am reading about your experiences, versatility might important. Ask someone who has a JCM800 2203 to let your borrow it for a practice session to see how you gel with it.

Yeah, I keep coming to the versatility thing, about half of our songs have a clean part in them but I would say 75% of those give me plenty of time to switch over what I need to, there are only a couple which go from distorted to clean and back quickly but they are pretty rare. One of them starts clean and then switches to distortion quick but never goes back to clean. Here is the most changey one we have and this is the one I am most concerned with having the effects for, the others I can get away with better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skOb4_D6YjI


What other instruments are in your 5-piece band? If playing with another guitarist, what is he/she using for amplification?

2 guitars, bass, drums, singer. I am the rhythm guy. The other guitarist uses a rig like mine, pod hd500fx through a power amp into a Mesa 4x12. He stays on the dual rectifier simulation though while I am generally on a 5150 sim, (it's the only one that opens up enough on the pod)

I remember your post in another section of the forum about your research into the H&K Coreblade amplifier head and how you would like to use it. I think that something similar might still be more better suited for your than the JCM800 2203. I didn't think the Coreblade sounded bad or fizzy-maybe it's just my different frame of reference/life experience-but the versatility was there.

Indeed, I was looking pretty hard at the core blade and while the distortion didn't sound bad, once I listened to some clips of a boosted 800 and went back to the H&K I said "nope" I do like the effects on it and certainly could get used to that but my issue comes in with the "super heavy gain" I have learned that I don't need it. We don't play what most people would call metal and I just don't need gain like that. As I mentioned before we recorded with a DSL 15 with the gain on 2 and an overdrive in front, set to level 10, gain zero, and tone at 50%

Have you demoed a JVM head or combo? There are several models available that are not too expensive. Right now, the JVM210H can usually be had for a little under $1800 most places; the 205H for a little under $1600. I use a 410H with great results. I think a JVM might do all your are describing:
*Volume boost: all JVMs have two master volumes, so a player can switch to a different master volume to get a volume boost of the same channel+mode, or switch to a different channel+mode and use the second master volume to boost that channel+mode.
*MIDI: you can use the built-in MIDI function to change your POD effects and change features on the JVM. For example, via MIDI you can setup a preset on the POD perform a host of changes on the POD and the JVM. You take out a lot of the physical switching that you might encounter using the JCM800 2203 and all the pedals and POD you want to use.
*The tones: well-rounded clean tones, crunchy distorted tones, to brutal, high-gain overdriven viciousness and aggression. You can cover a lot of sonic ground with a JVM.

I have not played though a JVM. I will certainly do that, I've still got lots of window shopping and demoing to do but I am pretty set on the 800. I will say this, I wonder if there is an apparatus that would allow me to control the effects pedals and the pod through midi with the 800? If something like that exists I could make it a one button operation to go from clean to dirty to whatever.

Someone also mentioned the AXE-FX: great unit with lots of tones and versatility. Mesa-Boogie is also one of my other favorites for variety in tone and versatility through great features. Have you tried other rack-based preamps? You might be surprised by what you hear, and when paired with a great power amp, the sound might be what you want as well as the versatility to do almost anything you want.

But if your heart is set on the JCM800 #2203, then go in that direction. The only thing I suggest is see if you can find someone who owns one that will lend it to you for a few days to see how you like it in person.
I have heard nothing but good things about the axe, I have considered one but again I keep coming back to wanting a real tube amp, it's funny how every time I post that I use modeling people say "get a tube amp" but when I say I'm getting a tube amp everyone says "get modeling" I'm not saying that as an insult, it's just funny. With that though I don't really have interest in the modeling anymore.. I liked it before but hearing what the real amps do and then hearing what modeling does.. I just wanna go for the real thing.. If it doesn't work out I can sell the 800 and all the pedals and buy an axe but ya know, we shall see. As far as using one at practice I don't think I'm gonna be able to do that. My neighbor is really cool and I can go over there and play it but I won't be able to take it with me.. Oddly enough, he also has my old DSL, he bought it from me. I think I will talk to him and see if I can bring my pod over and jam on it for a while.. That should give me a pretty good idea of what to expect. Oh, and as far as the Mesa I have very very seriously considered those. I can get a dual recto half stack for about the price of a used 800 head, but again I have heard good and bad. From everything I gather the only drawback to an 800 is the lack of a second channel, whereas with the Mesa I have heard nightmare stories of trying to dial those in and that you HAVE to have an OD or it sounds flubby (not a big deal since I am planning to use one anyway) but it is another option which I will explore. I am about 90% set on an 800 but as with most things with me it is subject to change. If I would have bought what I was looking at 6 months ago I would have a rack set up with a pod hd pro and a midi controller.. My mind changes like the breeze. But I should be coming up on having the money here fairly soon, so it's about to be decision time.

My replies in red above, thank you for all the info.

 

[chiliphil1]

I have been doing some more research on the 4 cable method lately and now that I actually understand what it is capable of I am even more convinced that the 800 is going to work great for me. I didn't fully realize what the 4 cable method could do but now I am amazed. With it set that way not only would I be able to run multiple effects through the loop but I would also be able to use my noise gate, volume and wah, as well as my tuner. With it set up the right way I could also bypass the preamp and use the power section for my clean. I can also use the pod for my overdrive and thus eliminate all the pedals I was planning to use. I'm so glad I looked into it because now I am even more confident that the 800 is gonna be perfect, I just have to make sure I get one with a loop. I'm also thinking that in this particular case the single channel is going to help, not hurt because I don't have to worry about switching channels, just hit one button on the pod and I have the sound and effects I am looking for right there.

 

[cowsgomoo]

I have been doing some more research on the 4 cable method lately and now that I actually understand what it is capable of I am even more convinced that the 800 is going to work great for me. I didn't fully realize what the 4 cable method could do but now I am amazed. With it set that way not only would I be able to run multiple effects through the loop but I would also be able to use my noise gate, volume and wah, as well as my tuner. With it set up the right way I could also bypass the preamp and use the power section for my clean. I can also use the pod for my overdrive and thus eliminate all the pedals I was planning to use. I'm so glad I looked into it because now I am even more confident that the 800 is gonna be perfect, I just have to make sure I get one with a loop. I'm also thinking that in this particular case the single channel is going to help, not hurt because I don't have to worry about switching channels, just hit one button on the pod and I have the sound and effects I am looking for right there.

I have the 2203x. I'm not super impressed by the FX loop. The sound just seems to lose a little bit of life & impact when it's engaged. But you might not experience the same thing as me, and if you want all those pedals and stuff going on, then you'll have to use it

I have to say though, there's something glorious about this amp when you just plug your guitar into it and and turn it up - simple and unadulterated... it's not just about the sound or the volume, but I think the speed at which it gives you back what you play... there's no tiny gap of a few milliseconds while a microprocessor mangles your input into something that simulates a JCM 800, it's just such an immediate response that feels fantastic, and I think that's what people sometimes miss.. you could get close to getting the right sound, and you could even get close to the way it reacts to how hard you pick, but I don't see how you could simulate that immediacy.. if you look inside a 2203, there's hardly anything in there - no wonder it packs such a brutal punch, it's straight in and out with the minimum of ****ing about on the way

I suppose you'd compare it to the accelerator on a sports car or bike, and how quickly it responds to your input and delivers what you ask... You might not think it's a big deal unless you've experienced it, and then you can't really go back

I predict that what you think you're going to use (noise gate, 4 cable method etc) may well change when you get your hands on one and start realising what's really essential to bring forth the rock, and what you thought you would need... the more you experience that simple, brutal 2203 attack, the less you'll probably want to put in the signal path... you might also be surprised by how many different sounds you can get out of it just by how hard or soft you play

 

[JSJ900]

Simple solution. Midi controlled FX and channel changing....28 differnt preset combinations with the stock controller...128 with an aftermarket....killer tube tone and total versatility...JMD for the win. IF you can find one.

Yes. It is known.

 

[BowerR64]

I highly recommend to your friend giving the four cable method a try. It's how I use my DSL40c with my HD500x. It alows you to have complete control over the effects and stomp boxes in the XT live. I have 4 patches that I have created to use with DSL40c. I have drive pedals, noise gate and the wah in front and EQ, another noise gate, delay, reverb, chorus, phaser, flanger etc in the effects loop. In addition, you can set it up to use your amp's pre-amp or the Line6's amp modeling.

I looked into the 4 cable method but i think i came to the conclusion that the XTlive couldnt do it for some reason.

It doesnt have enough ins and outs or something i forgot.

His tone is not bad for what he has and what he has into everything. He can still add everything he needs ontop of the sound the orange kicks out. His sound is pretty raw, he has a hint of delay and a hint of chorus but the average ear wouldnt even hear it.

IMO he needs all new speakers, he has an old 2X12 GK cab i gave him with 2 70/80s and a peavey valveking 4X12 he refuses to do anything with. Im shocked it sounds as good as it does with those speakers really.

 

[Dmann]

I had checked out the 100 watt JMD as some young dude was selling it, and it was not a great experience. I've also had a couple friends buy the combo one and flip it not soon after.

 

[Salsg]

The XT Live isn't capable of 4CM, I had one. I upgraded to the HD500 for the 4CM.

One thing I did do, similar to your friend, running the Line6 thru the return of the power amp of a tube head. In this case it was a 6100 (100w with EL34.)
Using the Line 6 for the preamp and effects, volume control, etc and the tube power amp to amplify it sounded pretty good (it did take some tweaking.)
Because the 6100 was so versatile (and the JVM that succeeded my 6100) I went 4CM and used the amps preamp, and the Line6 only for effects, etc.

But if you got a DSL (inexpensive and good) and used it as the power as noted above, you get a lot of variety of preamps that is help by a tube power amp.

I did like the versatility of the Line6 as a preamp being able to use Fender, Vox, Orange, Soldano, etc. Plus the Line6 is a great backup in case the tube amp goes down (which happened to me once)

 

[chiliphil1]

The XT Live isn't capable of 4CM, I had one. I upgraded to the HD500 for the 4CM.

Well, that just screwed my plans.

 

[chiliphil1]

I just got the golden ticket today.. I talk to my neighbor and he said I could come over and jam on the old 800 with my pedal anytime I want! Probably go do it Sunday since I've got a show Saturday night.. I get to play through it and make sure it's gonna be what I want before I spend the big cash on it.. His is a horizontal input model..

 

[Jethro Rocker]

How old? Does his have a loop? You can hear it which is awesome but can't try your toys through it. Still, great way to taste test?

 

[SonVolt]

6550 or EL34 version? Both sound drastically different. Neither have loops (assuming it's not he reissue.)

 

[chiliphil1]

How old? Does his have a loop? You can hear it which is awesome but can't try your toys through it. Still, great way to taste test?

It's mid 80's. No loop but I can at least try the pod overdrive with it and see how that works.. I know ZW runs all his pedals out front, perhaps it would work with the other effects too.. Won't be able to try the 4 cable though but at least I'll have an idea of what I am looking at without having to buy it first.

6550 or EL34 version? Both sound drastically different. Neither have loops (assuming it's not he reissue.)

EL34's No loop, but it's free to sample so it should give me an idea.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

That sounds good, push the front and see. I have pushed the front end of my 40C cause I have to and have pushed my TSL. Although it doesn't need extra gain, it tightens it up. It sounds great, and any extra noise is killed with with the noise gate.

 

[chiliphil1]

That sounds good, push the front and see. I have pushed the front end of my 40C cause I have to and have pushed my TSL. Although it doesn't need extra gain, it tightens it up. It sounds great, and any extra noise is killed with with the noise gate.

Yes, this is exactly what I am trying to do. Just a touch of gain but mostly just boost. When my band recoded our last song we used a dsl 15, red channel, gain on 2, bad monkey pedal with level on 10 gain on 0 and tone on 5.. No extra distortion but it tightened it up and made it work great.

I'm surprised at the difference of comments I am getting on this forum, on this page it's all good, yeah boost it, use the 4 cable, on and on. I made another thread where I mentioned using the 4 cable and people immediately started jumping on me because I wanted to use a line6 with a Marshall, it's unreal. I wish everyone on here could be as helpful as you guys have been on this thread, thank you.

 

[Dmann]

I'm surprised at the difference of comments I am getting on this forum, on this page it's all good, yeah boost it, use the 4 cable, on and on. I made another thread where I mentioned using the 4 cable and people immediately started jumping on me because I wanted to use a line6 with a Marshall, it's unreal. I wish everyone on here could be as helpful as you guys have been on this thread, thank you.

Sadly many "guitarist/musicans" are really just Jerks and the only reason they visit forums is to either brag about their gear or put others down for not agreeing with their idea of tone or point of view.

I try hard to be objective and suggest solutions that would work for me, but ultimately it's your journey we are discussing so what would be the point of me telling you to ignore your own idea and force mine on you? To me that is lame but you see a lot of guys do it.

On the other hand. An obstenate newb that asks for help then bashes on stuff he's never tried because a good friend told him it sucked is not someone anyone wants to waste time on trying to help.

I applaud you thus far. You are sticking to your guns, but more importantly you are listening and considering all the options people are presenting you. If you keep this open minded attitude you will have great success in achieving your goals and finding the setup that will give you the tone and enjoyment YOU are looking for.

 

[chiliphil1]

Sadly many "guitarist/musicans" are really just Jerks and the only reason they visit forums is to either brag about their gear or put others down for not agreeing with their idea of tone or point of view.

I try hard to be objective and suggest solutions that would work for me, but ultimately it's your journey we are discussing so what would be the point of me telling you to ignore your own idea and force mine on you? To me that is lame but you see a lot of guys do it.

On the other hand. An obstenate newb that asks for help then bashes on stuff he's never tried because a good friend told him it sucked is not someone anyone wants to waste time on trying to help.

I applaud you thus far. You are sticking to your guns, but more importantly you are listening and considering all the options people are presenting you. If you keep this open minded attitude you will have great success in achieving your goals and finding the setup that will give you the tone and enjoyment YOU are looking for.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm definitely receptive, that's why I ask all of these questions on here because I WANT the opinion of those who know more than me. In all honesty up until about 2 months ago I didn't understand tone at all, I just wanted gain gain gain, like those kids playing the line6 amps at guitar center, just put it on insane and turn the bass and gain up with the mids all the way down. It was a combo of this forum and my bands other guitar player who made me see the light. That's why I am so hard on the 800 because I don't feel like I need all the gain in a 410h, I need a nice crunch sound that has power and cuts, I can then boost it to get the tone I am looking for. I'm rhythm in a 2 guitar band so I don't need a big bottom with tons of gain like I used to think I did. What I need is an amp that sounds good, thus the 800.

Perfect example, which I keep going back to is our last recording session, we had a DSL 15 and when I got on there I instantly cranked the gain and bass to make it sound fatter and while it sounded good in the room the other guitar player goes " ok, let's record and you can see what that really sounds like" we did and it was terrible, it was mud and fizz, turn the gain and bass back down and voala I had a great tone IN THE MIX where it counts. So, over the years I have sorta turned away from Marshall because they didn't have tons of gain and a big bottom, now I realize that's exactly what I don't want. What I have found is that the tone I need in the band is not something I would dial in if playing by myself, it's 2 different tones. So, in closing the punch, cut, and presence of the 800 is what I want, as far as gain, they make pedals for that.

 

[chiliphil1]

Finally made it over to play the amp today and OH MY GOOOODDDDD... This thing is such a beast! I plugged in and set the EQ and was like, holy crap this amp is clean, sorta disappointed I started playing with the pod and began with the EQ, did a bit of a frown face and then tried boosting the low and mids and bringing the treble down on the EQ and there is was, THE friggin sound.. I then kicked in the OD with the drive up and gain down and it was ever better! That was the saturated screaming goodness that I was looking for. I played for half an hour or so and then turned off the OD and EQ and to my suprise the amp didn't loose much, it was a friggin gain monster all on it's own.. Once it got hot it was a whole other animal.. I honestly don't even think I will need an overdrive for rhythm sounds, I think I can just kick it in for leads and the amp cleaned up beautifully when the guitar volume was kicked back to about 2 or so.. It was just perfect, power, tone, and LOUD! I think I had the master on 1 the whole time, maybe 1 1/2. This is an absolutely unreal amp and I think I have decided absolutely that this will be the one I want and I think I have also decided that I don't need all the friggin pedals I thought I did.. I think an OD for lead and something like a signal pad for clean and I would be all set.. If nothing else I can toss the pod in the loop for effects, if I want them but it really doesn't seem to need them and the 4 cable method would just be a waste of time I think..

Overall, very happy and definitely sure now of what I want, this amp did it all! I played most of my bands songs and it didn't miss a beat, even without the OD it was just pure bada**, just that mean kick you in the face tone and volume.. Sure, I can't play swedish black metal but that's not what I am going for anyway.. It's amazing how much I have learned about tone here lately, I used to think if the gain didn't go to 60 it didn't count, now that I understand using the EQ and what good band tone sounds like this amp absolutely slays!

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Awesome!! My old 2203 was louder than hell at 2! Sounds like it'll work great for you in combination with an OD!

 

[chiliphil1]

Awesome!! My old 2203 was louder than hell at 2! Sounds like it'll work great for you in combination with an OD!

Yeah, I can imagine being kicked out of the band at 3 for sure, if I wasn't kicked out then we would definitely have less walls at the practice room, it is absolutely unreal how an amp can be so loud.. Makes me think about an attenuator but that's another one of those "we'll see" type of things. I have a load of trial and error ahead of me but I look forward to it for sure.