Need help getting the right sound for Malcolm Young

[GretschJet]

Howdy! For a while now I've been chasing to get Malcolm Young's badass sound from AC/DC. I'm pretty close but it sounds two overdriven and I have tweaked the setting all over the place. I either don't have enough crunch to it or too much. And too much is having the preamp at only two or three, unless the volume is low. I've got four things with my gear that may be a factor. I've got a 78 JMP 2203 with EL34's (which Malcolm is known to use) and 12xa7 preamp tubes. My cab has 4 g12-75's. And of course I have a Gretsch with filtertrons.

Now I've heard Malcolm uses either Greenbacks, Vintage 30's and g12-65's. I'm sure he has used all three at one point or another weather on an album or live, and still gets his unique sound. But are those 75's I have just too far from the 65's, Vintage 30's or greenbacks?

My amp, has a mod so it has four preamp tubes instead of three. Could this be what causes to much distortion/overdrive.

Another thing is that I'm a bedroom player. Could the amp being in a small room effect the sound, since its not being recorded? (if recording has anything to do with it) And I don't have the best Gretsch guitar laying around either. I'm thinking if my gear is all ok, then its just the guitar.

Any help or knowledge I get will be very appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Ken]

I think you're really over thinking this. Malcom sounds like himself through a Fender Champ. If you really want to get the Malcomb vibe, you already have the equipment to do it no matter what your settings are. Work on your timing; Malcomb is always a milisecond ahead of the beat.

My band plays Sin City and I get a great live AC/DC tone IMHO. Is it Malcomb? Well, I capture the vibe to my ear in how I play it, so the actual tone is always just fine whether it's a bit clean or a bit overdriven.

Ken

 

[damienbeale]

Extra gain stage? Jeeeeezus. A 2203 already has way too much gain.

I'd like to see documented evidence that Malcolm ever recorded anything with a 2203. Malcolm is known for using Super Bass amps, but mostly an old '67 JTM45/100 the early predecessor of the Super amps. This has a very distinctive clear bell-like crunch that you can't quite achieve with later Marshalls.

A stock 2203 stands a slight chance of getting close plugged into the LO input, Master Vol on 10 and cranking the gain until you get enough distortion (which is going to be crazy loud, btw) but with an already high-gain modded for more gain you stand very little chance of achieving Mal tone.

One thing is for sure, you're not going to get this right at bedroom levels. The punch has GOT to be there.

Big strings do help with this, too.

 

[soundboy57]

As for speakers, G12 65's with my '78 2204 nail it, greenback reissues sound pretty close, too.
V30's won't get it, IMO.

As for heads, a 2203/2204 will get it, when turned up halfway, and the preamp gain backed off.
A non master head about 3/4 up is a better bet.
Sounds like your head was modded for a lot of gain, with an extra tube, not a good sign for what you are after.

The whole secret to ACDC is the lack of a lot of gain and distortion, and a lot of punchy headroom...
where the power tubes and speakers get the dirt.

 

[damienbeale]

The whole secret to ACDC is the lack of a lot of gain and distortion, and a lot of punchy headroom...
where the power tubes and speakers get the dirt.

Exactly this. This is why there is not a lot of gain, but still plenty of harmonics and life.

And yeah, V30 really aren't in the recipe book for Mal or Angus.

 

[Roadburn]

When they started, AC/DC used G12H 30W 75Hz (Pre-Rola spider with "in house" made cones), and Kurt Mueller cones

Like these...

Celestion Loudspeakers: From Blues to Greenies and beyond

 

[Ken]

a lot of gain, with an extra tube, not a good sign for what you are after.

The whole secret to ACDC is the lack of a lot of gain and distortion, and a lot of punchy headroom...
where the power tubes and speakers get the dirt.

That's the way to get. I myself use more gain than Malcomb because I don't use the DSL green channel for AC/DC, but I still like my tone even if it's not exactly like the studio sound.

Ken

 

[microhead]

Right hand technique, neck pickup. Dial in a bit of gain on the amp, and dial back the volume on the guitar. Don't cut mids, keep bass flat, maybe a teeny bit cut. OH, and turn up loud.

 

[Ken]

Right hand technique, neck pickup. Dial in a bit of gain on the amp, and dial back the volume on the guitar. Don't cut mids, keep bass flat, maybe a teeny bit cut. OH, and turn up loud.

All good suggestions.

But...the guy already has the amp, speakers and guitar for AC/DC. If he can't get Malcolm with that equipment...well...

Ken

 

[hbach]

neck pickup..

Bridge Pickup, Malcom even has the neck one removed.

Now if you listen to ACDC Live recordings he is using a Mesa Mk III and that is so much more compressed than other examples. So sometimes Malcom doesn't even sound like Malcom, gear wise that is. Playing style is a whole different ball game.

 

[microhead]

Bridge Pickup, Malcom even has the neck one removed.

.

WELL! i can get there like that, so, sorry for the bad advice! I really didn't know that about him. Either way, it's just as much about the right hand as it is the gear. I'd say follow the others' advice over mine, I'm really kind of a hack player anyway

 

[Blueslicks]

Roadburn, soundboy57 and Damienbeale are leading you in the right direction.

You will come very, very close with a SLP 100 and running it through G12H30's. Another speaker option would be the SLP 100 into the new Creamback G12H75's.

I've gotten as close as I've ever heard with a 1959HW into a 4x12 loaded with Heritage G12H30 55hz. But that setup will cost you some dough.

Regardless, the more affordable standard issue SLP 100 and some G12H Anniversary, new Creamback G12H75 or some actual vintage G12H30's will get you very, very close as I previously said. IMO the 55hz models come closest as far as speakers go.

Using greenbacks or V30's will not help matters at all. Both breakup way to easily and with greenbacks especially, the sensitivity messes with the clean headroom required.

You are on the right track recognizing the gain levels on your 2203 are too much when trying to achieve the Malcolm punch with volume. Many people will tell you they get "really close" with a variety of amps and models however you must recognize that some people are just easily satisfied. These "really close" amp settings are usually the result of a single player combining the already mixed recorded sound of both Malcolm and Angus together. There is no real singular "ACDC" sound. There is an Angus tone (which can be achieved with your 2203 without much effort) and a Malcolm tone which you have already determined is somewhat elusive.

 

[GretschJet]

I appreciate all of the feedback guys! I know Malcolm uses a Super bass on pretty much all album recordings, and to get his sound I definitely couldn't go wrong with one. I'm going to post a video which was as close as I can get to his sound. I'm a little confused on the speakers though. What's the difference between G12m, G12H, and Greenbacks? I've read and been told he uses these three along with the Vintage 30's and g12-65's, but I've never heard him using the 75's.
As far as my right hand playing, I think I've got the feel down for the most part, and use a heavy pick. I think he really has a hold on his pick I've found out. He really hits them straight on and doesn't just glide down the strings.
My guitar is a Gretsch but its a cheaper electromatic model with a filtertron in there, but it isn't the best quality guitar like the higher end Gretsch's like the Firebird or Malcolm Young Signature guitar, which may also be a factor.

Here are the videos for comparison. Please take time to listen to his sound.

First I have his Live sound on TNT from 77' using 2203 heads
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvVlIaTuSts]ACDC - Live 1977 08 TNT - YouTube[/ame]

Second is from Rocker, live 78' also using 2203 heads.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJ6oiHUcx4]AC/DC- Rocker [Colchester, England, 10/28/1978] (Proshot) - YouTube[/ame]

Got any Ideas on what speakers he's using at these gigs?

And here is my video. It's close to how Malcolm sounds live but isn't quite there. It was recorded on an IPhone so it doesn't give much justice to the sound. And my playing is a bit sloppy.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjoqDBruzj4]Malcolm Young Sound Test 2 - YouTube[/ame]

Let me know what you guys think on what I should change if anything gear wise.

 

[SoloDallas]

Extra gain stage? Jeeeeezus. A 2203 already has way too much gain.

I'd like to see documented evidence that Malcolm ever recorded anything with a 2203. Malcolm is known for using Super Bass amps, but mostly an old '67 JTM45/100 the early predecessor of the Super amps. This has a very distinctive clear bell-like crunch that you can't quite achieve with later Marshalls.

A stock 2203 stands a slight chance of getting close plugged into the LO input, Master Vol on 10 and cranking the gain until you get enough distortion (which is going to be crazy loud, btw) but with an already high-gain modded for more gain you stand very little chance of achieving Mal tone.

One thing is for sure, you're not going to get this right at bedroom levels. The punch has GOT to be there.

Big strings do help with this, too.

There is reference, they used (both) 2203s on Powerage and Highway To Hell (and it sounds like it).But their sound engineer on that album confirmed Malcolm did too, anyways. A 2203 with master on 4 and preamp on 4 is already not at all so overdriven.

But anyway OP, to try and answer your points.

Malcolm has been using real old Gretsches - I have one exactly like his, from 1962 or 1963, and the guitar already on its own makes a HUGE difference.
So much for "tone being in the hands" (I have always looked at this sentence with suspicion, and I really use my hands heavily for the style I have been copying for years).

Gear naturally plays a fundamental part. If one is trying to create a sound that "more or less is reminiscent of..." then anything will do. Even playing those parts with a Telecaster (which Malcolm did, too, live).

However if you REALLY are passionate about the authentic tone, nothing will substitute getting closer to the real thing.
For your Gretsch, Tom Jones pickups may be a must, for example. As contemporary Gretsch filtertrons surely don't seem to cut it.

Your amp should be fine instead - true, 45/100s were used, Super Bass very often, 2203 and even one in combo format.

Vintage 30s were used more in the last decade/two decades. Before it, it was all G12-65s and G12Ms. Someone says even G12H30s, which for Malcolm could be. I never tried them for his style.

Sorry this is all I have for now - I concentrated more on Angus.

A final note: to really hear what Malcolm sounds like, go to live recordings.
What you hear in studio albums was most of the times post processed and pretty much, too. Usually, sound engineers and producers would take out treble (from the mixing console, NOT from the amp!), HMF and LMF to shape the Young brothers sounds.

 

[Polvo]

Perhaps also try plugging into the low input and adjust volume and preamp accordingly. I had a very gainy stock 81 JMP 2203, and like you it would jump from not enough drive to too much. That was a perfect solution diming out the preamp and playing band practice loud, had a great aggressive clean sound.

 

[Blueslicks]

I appreciate all of the feedback guys! I know Malcolm uses a Super bass on pretty much all album recordings, and to get his sound I definitely couldn't go wrong with one. I'm going to post a video which was as close as I can get to his sound. I'm a little confused on the speakers though. What's the difference between G12m, G12H, and Greenbacks? I've read and been told he uses these three along with the Vintage 30's and g12-65's, but I've never heard him using the 75's.
As far as my right hand playing, I think I've got the feel down for the most part, and use a heavy pick. I think he really has a hold on his pick I've found out. He really hits them straight on and doesn't just glide down the strings.
My guitar is a Gretsch but its a cheaper electromatic model with a filtertron in there, but it isn't the best quality guitar like the higher end Gretsch's like the Firebird or Malcolm Young Signature guitar, which may also be a factor.

Here are the videos for comparison. Please take time to listen to his sound.

First I have his Live sound on TNT from 77' using 2203 heads
ACDC - Live 1977 08 TNT - YouTube

Second is from Rocker, live 78' also using 2203 heads.
AC/DC- Rocker [Colchester, England, 10/28/1978] (Proshot) - YouTube

Got any Ideas on what speakers he's using at these gigs?

And here is my video. It's close to how Malcolm sounds live but isn't quite there. It was recorded on an IPhone so it doesn't give much justice to the sound. And my playing is a bit sloppy.
Malcolm Young Sound Test 2 - YouTube

Let me know what you guys think on what I should change if anything gear wise.

Yes well the Rocker and TNT videos certainly showcase Malcolm using the 2203 as the band did several tours with those models as well as different speaker types from late 70’s onward. But to me this is definitely not the quintessential “Malcolm” tone. To me Malcolm’s tone is referenced more with recordings and even then this becomes hard to determine where and what equipment was used for what songs and on what albums.

I have personally spoken with an engineer producer of some later ACDC recordings about ACDC’s recording tactics and he indicated that the band has literally a warehouse full of Marshalls, many of which are vintage, to choose from. Malcolm prefers to use his 1959’s, Super Bass’s, and on some tracks a custom Wizard amp to record. I trust his info because he is indeed the real deal and has had numerous experiences, collaboration and contact with the band.

Now, and this is IMO of course, the Rocker video you posted is not exactly the best tone I’ve heard from Malcolm. Looks to me to be a smaller venue where volume may have been an issue as he appears to have a thinner and gainier than usual tone but that is subjective as always. The TNT video is just way too shitty a mix to really pull apart and differentiate between the two guitar tones. An interesting thing about that video is that it appears the vocals are extremely dominant in the mix. This is usually due to the band being very loud onstage when someone is trying to get a live recording from the board. Certainly shows that they do play with massive volume live when the venue is appropriate.

The video you posted of yourself (great playing aside) sounds to me like you are at fairly low volume with not much power section being pushed. This is overall fairly clean and reflects only what most amps played at low volume can easily do. The trick is to get that type of clean with (as damianbeale mentioned) “punch, clarity" and I'll add to that "just a touch of hair” at significant volume. The volume is required so the amp can push the power section into the beefy sonic zone and as well, compete with a drummer and the open air of large venues where sound disperses much more than the “all you need is a 5 watt amp and a 1x12 if you mic it” crowd will have you believe.

The reason I (and others) suggest G12H30’s is that they are a loud speaker in regards to sensitivity (providing more headroom) and they also resist breaking up much better than a greenback while retaining great bottom end.

Keep in mind speakers don't show you what their capable of (or what they are not) until you play them loud.

And indeed, your extra preamp tube mod is not going to do you any favors when attempting to clean the tone up. I would also take note of SoloDallas recommendation regarding pickup choice.

 

[SoloDallas]

This ^ was a heck of a post. Well done Blueslicks!

 

[Blueslicks]

This ^ was a heck of a post. Well done Blueslicks!

Thank you sir!

 

[SonVolt]

Have you tried a 2203/2204 equipped with 6550s? It was AC/DC in a box I thought. Not nearly as much gain as the EL34 version but way ballsier with more clean headroom.

 

[GretschJet]

Thanks again for the feedback guys!

Fil (SoloDallas), I strive to replicate Malcolm's sound, just like you do with Angus. Which you have done an amazing job on btw.

Now with me using a 2203 head I do understand it doesn't give that real distinct Malcolm sound, or nearly as clean. That's where a Super Bass/Lead or JTM's come into play. But I am a bit skeptical of this statement because I've seen on YouTube, a few people get almost spot on using a 2203/2204 head. Is this maybe where the speakers come into play?

When I had the money to buy a Marshall amp, I chose the 2203 over a Super Bass because it has been said he's used them on some album like Powerage, Highway to Hell, and Back in Black recordings, which are my favorite album sounds from him. I also wanted the 2203 to actually replicate his sound from the Rocker video I posted. I will correct myself saying that that's more towards that sound I want.

Malcolm has a really distinct sound from his Gretsch through a Marshall. Its that really smokey, trebly, grainy sound he gets. Anything you hear him play like the Rocker video above or If You Want Blood, or Shoot To Thrill distinctively has that certain sound. That's what makes me think Malcolm's sound is unique, and that's the sound I would like to try and get.

As far as my pickups, I've read and been told to choose TVJones over HS Filtertrons and vice versa. I have two Gretsch guitars, one a 5120 with a HS Filtertron, and the other is a Gretsch 5445 double Jet with a TVJones Classic, all in the bridge position. There is some difference between the two, but not a whole lot. On the Jet I had a HS in the bridge and upgraded to a TVJones and it didn't change much. The TVJones is just a bit brighter.

So I guess all I can change is my speakers to some G12H's (probably depending on the era) and possibly take out that extra Pre Amp tube and maybe change to some 6550's Power Tubes. Right?

I don't think I could go wrong with a better quality guitar and I think what's really killing me is I'm playing an amp made to play at big venues and stadiums in a 10x15 room.

I've got another question mostly regarding to Fil (SoloDallas) because of his background with recordings. Correct me if I'm wrong, I understand size of a room (like a bedroom vs. a Venue) will resonate the sound differently than other rooms and sound different. With this, will what we may hear from an amp playing in a room (like a studio), sound quite different when recorded (with a good quality recording mic) and played back, than what you actually heard while in the room playing? So if I got a good mic, and recorded myself, would I sound a little more toward what I'm looking for?

Thanks for all the feedback you guys are giving me. I'm sorry my posts are a little messy but there is lot of info id like to get.