New band and Amp Sorrows

[BrentD]

This isn't about your amp. It's about the band playing too loudly for the space. Nobody should be drowning anybody else out. Your request to turn down was getting at the right solution, and their response was not good news.

However, you're getting paid and nobody is complaining about your volume or tone in the regular setup you're using (except you), so the best option might be to suck it up if you can.

 

[ampmadscientist]

So I've played in classic rock and Blues bands for years. with a Marshall DSL40c amp sitting on a 1x12 cab. This amp sounds great and holds up well in a mix etc. even with no sound man it can hold its own against the other guitarists' combo amps in this type of setting. Ive been playing like this for years with other professional Musicians who taught me to listen to the music collectively and not just "my amp".

But I recently joined a Hard Rock band where I Joined as the second guitarist. Now, my very modest Marshall DSL40c is teamed up against a 100W Ignater Half stack. Of course a half stack has no issues over powering my small Marshall Combo. Its literally half a half stack. 40 Watt and only two Speakers. some times it gets to the point where I cant even hear my amp to hear what I'm even playing! and when I turn my amp up to get it slighly audible to hear what Im playing i get told to turn down? Everyone claims they can hear my amp but me?! Should I just get some kind on in ear monitor or something for my amp? or just break down and get a half stack? or at least a 4x12 cab to connect to?

Everyone plays so loud! And when I suggest turning down I get looked at like I'm crazy. Sometimes they even drown out the vocalist. Im used to playing with musicians with more control and not power. (for a lack of better words) I cant quit though I need the cash.

In a professional band, with professional musicians...
You don't even need to ask.

The players already know that no matter how loud the amps are, the loudness needs to balance.
They all turn down, without saying anything.

"The vocalist is drown out..."
There's your clue, right there ! Think about it...

Professionals don't engage in a volume contest. Because pros don't do that.

Your band should have a rule: 18 watts and 1 cabinet is the limit.
And 18 watts is ridiculously loud, even still.

The reality is dude:
The amplifier isn't the problem. Now think about that. Think Hard...

The band that I play in:
Has plenty of loud amps.
But has absolutely none of the problems that you have. Gee, why is that?
Isn't it interesting that we can hear every vocal - and every solo -and every note- 100% of the time?

I play bass - thru a 60 watt combo amp, with 1X 12 inch speaker. It's still way more than I need.
Nobody's complaining that they can't hear the bass player...

You are going down a road...which has no end.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Can't hear the vocals sometimes? TOO LOUD!! Common sense for them I would think. The idea behind practice is to get better and iron things out. How? Can't hear the vocals for timing. Seriously, angle your amp where all of you can hear it and tell them they must turn down. Not very professional if you ask me. They are not ACDC playing Wembley Stadium, it's a garage practice.
That being said, it is about perception indeed, you need to point your amp at you, even on the vloor aiming up at you at an angle, and add some mids. Still, seems excessive for a practice....

A 40C in theory with a V30 should put out over 112 dB at 3 feet away at less than half power spread out over 2 speakers?? Should be enough to practice with, 4x12s or not.

 

[CRobbins]

Maybe look for a cab like this one. MX212A
Angled 2x12.


https://marshallamps.com/products/cabinets/mx212a/

 

[solarburn]

Always better to turn down so the mix is at its best. These guys are idiots and I don't care that it's hard rock. Balance is key and there are a lot of players that miss the mark of creating a balanced sound field whatever gear they play through. The proper mix is what will make the music shine and them. Dumbasses. Always better to turn down than up for a proper mix.

Your 40 watt DSL should be find. Try a speaker stand which has been mentioned so you can hear it better. EQ it with proper mids. You have a 70/80 speaker. It should cut no problem and be heard by you if positioned well enuff.

If you need the money than you will have to compromise for the time being. Welcome to band egos 101. Good luck. The music should come first but musicians can be prissy little bitches about certain things. Usual territory discrepancies.

 

[morbe]

Not a bad speaker but not the best either. V30s....not my favorite for home practice but are monsters when played loud and they help you cut through. I forgot to ask, are you using monitors? Can the audience hear you? If the audience can hear you and your tone pleasing you are 80 percent there. Have you considered micing amp? Good luck....this is a common problem and solveable.

Yes I have considered Mic'ing the Amp. If it were up to me I would get both amps at conversation level and Mic them both. But Im not sure if that will fly with these guys. I've had a Bugera Vintage 5 watt amp Mic'ed and got the same effect as I end stuff. But im not sure if these guys know what a "Backline" is. And I would hate to ask and insult them if they do.

I also dont want to mic the amp and seem like Im getting into a volume war with this guy. Im so used to setting my amp volume and not touching it.

Tone is good amp is audible but sometimes I just cant hear it. Aparently It can be heard by all but me. I just got an amp stand :
GuitarCenter
and plan to put my 1x12 cab underneath it.

 

[Deep_end]

Maybe look for a cab like this one. MX212A
Angled 2x12.


https://marshallamps.com/products/cabinets/mx212a/

Only 8 Ohms, so he loses his internal speaker, and keeps him at 2x12.

 

[MesaMan50]

I often have the same problem with my Band. I like hearing the balance of the band when I go to the center of the room. For leads or parts where you need boost try a boost pedal. Or if you want to Keep your same set-up, as above angle the combo, etc.

For Hard Rock, I'd look at trying a V-30 in either cab, 100 Db response and well suited for that genre.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Sounds like a plan, angle it and keep the volume about level with the drums. Not conversation but no louder than the acoustic drum kit. Should be reasonable I would think.

 

[chiliphil1]

I had this happen to me but with a 100w half stack. The solution for me was how I EQ'd the amp. I was lost in the mix so I increased the presence and mid freq. It was weird, the sound of just the guitar with the eq was not my fav but with the band all joined in it was perfect. Second big issue was my speakers. V30s are great for cutting through. What speaker are you using? I was using 75s but that speaker with the midst cut on the eq resulted in being lost in the mix. Are you scooping the mids out. I highly doubt your problem is you need a new amp or it's not loud enough. It's more likely where you are sitting in the mix and if you don't like mid freq you can be lost in the mix. It's worth a try.

This is also very true. I always say that I have 2 sounds, a home sound and a band sound. The home sound is thick, scooped mids, heavy on the bass, really thumps. The band sound is thin, almost bright, lots of mids. This is something that I learned the hard way through years of doing it wrong. Mids are where the guitar lives, if you have your mids low you get lost with the bass, so you MUST use the mids. Your amp will probably not sound good to you by itself, as I said mine sounds thin and I am not a fan of how I have it dialed in BUT when it is in the mix it sounds powerful, a black and gold fire breathing beast! It's all in sitting in the mix.

Yes I have considered Mic'ing the Amp. If it were up to me I would get both amps at conversation level and Mic them both. But Im not sure if that will fly with these guys. I've had a Bugera Vintage 5 watt amp Mic'ed and got the same effect as I end stuff. But im not sure if these guys know what a "Backline" is. And I would hate to ask and insult them if they do.

I also dont want to mic the amp and seem like Im getting into a volume war with this guy. Im so used to setting my amp volume and not touching it.

Tone is good amp is audible but sometimes I just cant hear it. Aparently It can be heard by all but me. I just got an amp stand :
GuitarCenter
and plan to put my 1x12 cab underneath it.

Honestly, this sounds like it may not be the right band for you. You seem like a nice guy with some experience, the other guitar player sounds like a p***k. I don't know the guy, but the fact that he is so loud the singer can't be heard, refuses to turn down for you, and has such an attitude that you don't even want to ask him to adjust the volume makes me think that maybe you are not a good fit for this particular band. The guys in my band will all say it like it is and it is understood that when they say it it is for the good of the band, not some personal ego issue. Also, as someone mentioned above if these guys play that loud and have no intention of turning down you guys are not going to do very well gigging. Places don't want you loud, maybe drum level and that's about it, if they are overpowering they won't be asked back and there is a chance that you may be playing to an empty room before the show is over.

 

[Rich_S]

You are going down a road...which has no end.

Of course it has an end, a little town called Tinnitus.

Always better to turn down so the mix is at its best. These guys are idiots and I don't care that it's hard rock.

In a professional band, with professional musicians...

Can't hear the vocals sometimes? TOO LOUD!!

Honestly, this sounds like it may not be the right band for you. You seem like a nice guy with some experience, the other guitar player sounds like a p***k.

All of this. "Experience" and "connections" do not professionals make. These guys are amateurs, trying to show everybody how big their dicks are, measured in dBs instead of inches. They need to grow up. Your DSL is more than enough for any gig this pack of overgrown teenagers will ever get, and I would strongly advise using your half-power switch at rehearsals.

 

[JimiRules]

when I turn my amp up to get it slighly audible to hear what Im playing i get told to turn down?

Everyone plays so loud! And when I suggest turning down I get looked at like I'm crazy.

Sometimes they even drown out the vocalist.

The fact that they have no problem telling you to turn down, yet look at you like you're crazy when you suggest they turn down is a huge red flag. Then the fact that they're willing to drown out the vocalist is an even bigger one. What does the vocalist think of this?

The thing is you know you have enough amp for you to hear it in a good mix because you've done it. I wouldn't throw the money down for a new amp unless you really want one. I'd see how your amp stand does for you and keep your eyes peeled for a new band in the meantime.

 

[royslead]

Playing to an empty room...if you're even allowed to continue. Some places will pull the plug on you, if you're too loud. I see the point about wrong band for you; I thought that myself, but it sounds like you are hoping for their connections to help further your own experiences. Nothing wrong with that. I could not help but wonder - since you said "at times, you couldn't hear yourself..." that doesn't mean always, so are you experiencing ear fatigue? I do, quite frequently; and have to stop myself from readjusting the amp and such because " I cannot hear myself or the tone I had." My ears are damaged and have been since playing a gig at a national tractor pull event. You may not be there, yet but watch that volume with bozos like this; the damage is slow to creep up but sure...

 

[CRobbins]

Maybe you should name the band, "Band of Sorrows".
See if they get it.

 

[ampmadscientist]

Making yourself louder and louder...
is not the answer to this.

Practicing dynamics - as a band - is the answer.

All the players in your band....do everything to make YOU sound good.
YOU do everything ....to make the other players sound good.

There is no "me."
There is only: "US." WE work as a unit, together. That's what a band IS.

Keep thinking on this...you are now becoming a professional...

 

[RockMetal64]

You should also consider in-ear monitoring/earplugs.

1 - It can cut down the destructive noise, if they're too loud.
2 - You can set it to hear yourself no matter what.
3 - You can save your hearing.

My tinnitus kicked in at 27 or so back in 1992.
Sometimes, i can hear "ok".
Other times, everything sounds like badly encoded swishy mushy mp3's.

Once your ears are ringing permanently, you'll never know dead silence again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_tinnitus


Pete

 

[axe arsenal]

It's all about sound projection (like many already said).
If you are standing in front of your amp (that is on the floor) and on the other side of the room there is the other guitar player standing in front of his amp (which is towards you) you will only hear his amp.

 

[thegaindeli]

So I've played in classic rock and Blues bands for years. with a Marshall DSL40c amp sitting on a 1x12 cab. This amp sounds great and holds up well in a mix etc. even with no sound man it can hold its own against the other guitarists' combo amps in this type of setting. Ive been playing like this for years with other professional Musicians who taught me to listen to the music collectively and not just "my amp".

But I recently joined a Hard Rock band where I Joined as the second guitarist. Now, my very modest Marshall DSL40c is teamed up against a 100W Ignater Half stack. Of course a half stack has no issues over powering my small Marshall Combo. Its literally half a half stack. 40 Watt and only two Speakers. some times it gets to the point where I cant even hear my amp to hear what I'm even playing! and when I turn my amp up to get it slighly audible to hear what Im playing i get told to turn down? Everyone claims they can hear my amp but me?! Should I just get some kind on in ear monitor or something for my amp? or just break down and get a half stack? or at least a 4x12 cab to connect to?

Everyone plays so loud! And when I suggest turning down I get looked at like I'm crazy. Sometimes they even drown out the vocalist. Im used to playing with musicians with more control and not power. (for a lack of better words) I cant quit though I need the cash.

 

[Kladen]

Angle your amp towards yourself, raise the mids and/or lower the bass and last but not least try to place yourself further away from your amp.
I play a 1959 JMP through a 4x12 and if I'm standing right in front of the cab it is hard to hear through a six man band, 3-4 meters away? Loud and clear

 

[houseofrock]

What about adding a second cabinet, an angled cabinet to use as a monitor so you can hear?
Mojotone Slammins Mini Angled Speaker Extension Cabinet 1X12 Version
Just a thought.
They also make a 2x12 version.