Rack is back?

[libertarian]

Hi there,

Haven't been here in a while and have been mostly obsessing over at the Fender and Washburn related boards.

But that wouldn't stop me from having some amp GAS as well. I've started playing regularly again with a hard rock/heavy/classic rock cover band. And for that flexibility is key.

My mainstay setup with my original band during the 90s has always been my trusted JCM800 50w amp in combination with a Boogie V-Twin Preamp and various rack effects. I still love it the way it is and it is actually very flexible (given that the JCM had been modded back in the days to include a nice clean channel that works very well with the Boogie). But it's heavy and takes a moment to set up. That's why I bought a Fender Cyber Twin for the cover band. Call me crazy, but I always liked them for what they are.

But obviously it doesn't have the refined sound you get from a full tube outfit, no doubt.

My next step will be to swap out my old TC G-major (unreliable piece of junk it is) for a G-Force. With that of course I could be using my old setup again on occasion. But I'm thinking even further:

What about a JVM401? I played one recently and liked it much better than Marshalls 90s attempts at multi-channel amps. Combined with a good 2x12 instead of my 4x12 and the G-Force and I should have a mighty yet portable rig.

But then again I'm thinking: wouldn't a sweet old 90s rack offer even more flexibility and ease of setup on stage?

So I'm comparing the benefits of JVM + G-Force to the combination I always had in the back of my mind:

Mesa Triaxis (or Marshall JPM-1) -> G-Force -> Marshall EL34 50/50 -> 2x12 cab (or 4x12 depending on venue, or even both).

I know some people may cringe at the Mesa here but work with me. I always liked the combo of Mesa pre + Marshall power amp - but I'm open to the JPM as well still.

What are the benefits of the two rigs? Disadvantages? I haven't done a weight comparison yet, but I think I could keep the three pieces above in one rack and just add my Furman power supply and my wireless system (if at all) without breaking my back and still have everything set up in a way that all I need to o is plug in 3 cables. Head plus small rack is more wiring and things that can go wrong. But maybe lighter and easier to carry.

Sound obviously is different but all good and flexible. Not sure which I'd like better. Probably the old Mesa+Marshall deal for me and my personal sound.

 

[USAPatriot]

Yup. If you have your own tone going, that's the direction you should probably take. -Rod-

 

[Marshall_Watts87]

analog pedals are better than rack effects

 

[libertarian]

analog pedals are better than rack effects

If they are for you that's great. I personally never understood why they came back they way they came. Back in the 80s and 90s we were thrilled to get rid of them. Sure, there are some really nice pedals out there - and I have to admit that I have accumulated a bunch over the years.

But how practical is all that? Not really that much. And yes, there will likely always be my trusted wah and some kind of distortion pedal (original TS9, OCD, etc) in front of me. Everything else I'm more than happy to have behind me in a programmable rack unit and in an effect loop. I really just use chorus and delay anyway. And EQ. Lots of EQ depending on what I'm doing. Everything else is specialty stuff or for one off applications.

And for that a good unit such as the TC stuff or any other studio quality digital unit eats any pedal alive. Especially all the fancy new-old retro pedals that come in all sorts of colors and funky names but are all derivatives of the things we discarded off back in the days ;-)

 

[blues_n_cues]

for pure JMP-1 rack & even a SS pwr amp w/ vintage late 80's Alesis rack fx just check my sig links.
or..
[SC]https://soundcloud.com/rlc-ltd/dixie-hollow-scratch-eventide-vocals[/SC]

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/rlc-ltd/d-tuned-song-with-scratch-drum[/SC]

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/rlc-ltd/name-that-w-riff-human-drums[/SC]

 

[Marshall_Watts87]

If they are for you that's great. I personally never understood why they came back they way they came. Back in the 80s and 90s we were thrilled to get rid of them. Sure, there are some really nice pedals out there - and I have to admit that I have accumulated a bunch over the years.

But how practical is all that? Not really that much. And yes, there will likely always be my trusted wah and some kind of distortion pedal (original TS9, OCD, etc) in front of me. Everything else I'm more than happy to have behind me in a programmable rack unit and in an effect loop. I really just use chorus and delay anyway. And EQ. Lots of EQ depending on what I'm doing. Everything else is specialty stuff or for one off applications.

And for that a good unit such as the TC stuff or any other studio quality digital unit eats any pedal alive. Especially all the fancy new-old retro pedals that come in all sorts of colors and funky names but are all derivatives of the things we discarded off back in the days ;-)

nobody was happy to get rid of analog pedals. people love to try new stuff and they did. and if you say all you use is chorus and delay, that makes using rack effects even more dubious. i've had a g force, cool piece but a waste. i like the idea of having all those effects in one space with no cords. but it's ridiculous and doesn't sound as good as analog, period. and speaking of practical? what's more simple than putting together a 2 to 8 pedal board of effects you actually use. pedals whether you like them or not are the definition of practical. in fact if you look up practical in the dictionary there is a picture of jimi hendrix, eddie van halen and zakk wylde's pedalboard.:

 

[Mosher Zone]

^^ Why not buy a switcher for your effects and put you fave Delay & Chorus in it.

 

[Marshall_Watts87]

you mean voodoo lab gcx gcp?

 

[libertarian]

nobody was happy to get rid of analog pedals. people love to try new stuff and they did. and if you say all you use is chorus and delay, that makes using rack effects even more dubious. i've had a g force, cool piece but a waste. i like the idea of having all those effects in one space with no cords. but it's ridiculous and doesn't sound as good as analog, period. and speaking of practical? what's more simple than putting together a 2 to 8 pedal board of effects you actually use. pedals whether you like them or not are the definition of practical. in fact if you look up practical in the dictionary there is a picture of jimi hendrix, eddie van halen and zakk wylde's pedalboard.:

Well, sure - to each their own. I find pedal boards (and I do have one) to be cumbersome and often unreliable. And that's just the part where on a dark stage and with little time you have to hook up all the right cables to your pre-pre-amp loop, amp effects loop, channel switchers, tuner, run the whole thing back and forth from front of stage to the back, think about the placement of a wireless system, various power supplies or battery issues. Yuck. I was more than happy to get rid of the stuff and only pull it out for recording or very few occasions.

And it's not as flexible as I'd need it. I often go from one sound to another that has completely different settings. Back in the days that meant dancing on various switchers and pedals - with zero chance of ever having a clean cut over.

Midi and good multi effect units made that better. A lot better. No "analog" delay or chorus can compete with the studio quality of one of the better digital devices. And there are only two (very recent) programmable EQ pedals that I know of that can produce more than one sound.

I need to be able to go from a soaring EQd lead sound with lots of delay to a sparkly clean, compressed, chorussed clean sound, and from there to my standard JCM800 style rhythm sound with all gadgetry removed from the signal path.

Yes, you can do that with pedals - if you have a refrigerator sized Broadshaw system and a roadie...

So with that in mind I hope that people one day will find a balance again with the fake-vintage hype and find again a middle ground between your Line6/AxeFx simulators and some programmable tube setups. It's really a shame that the best units for those purposes are now 20 years old or so. Modern technology should have given us much better pro-level gear by now.

What would be wrong with a programmable head that has digital effects on board? Hughes & Kettner has something like that now but it's not quite there yet. Marshall tried at some point but made it more of an entry level, non-tube toy with poor build quality.

 

[blues_n_cues]

^^ Why not buy a switcher for your effects and put you fave Delay & Chorus in it.

exactly.
I have 1 foot switcher (ART X-11) for all the amp tones,various delay presets,chorus presets on a couple things,"scenes",etc.etc.
sometimes I'll bring out the chorus pedal if I want a little "extra".
there's the wah & that's it. no need for even a boost w/ the JMP-1 but I plan on one just to keep the midi preset list even simpler.

for Libertarian- you might be interested in something like this for a standalone midi programmable rack eq.
they usually go used for $60-$75. this one is high on the asking price.
Akai PEQ6 Professional Programmable MIDI Controllable Digital EQ | eBay

it can't get much simpler than this and everything fits in the roadcase.-

plus,it looks pretty cool in the dark.lol

 

[sinner 13]

I personally never got the whole rack thing.

It was a cost prohibitive venture for me being in high school at the time.

A good rack mount rig then was way more than a decent amp with a few pedals,

 

[Mosher Zone]

you mean voodoo lab gcx gcp?

Yeah, that or the Rocktron Patchmate but there are cheaper ones kicking about.

 

[SonVolt]

A new Triaxis is $2,000. That's almost as much as a JVM and that's just the preamp. A very high quality awesome aounding preamp though.

 

[Marshall_Watts87]

Well, sure - to each their own. I find pedal boards (and I do have one) to be cumbersome and often unreliable. And that's just the part where on a dark stage and with little time you have to hook up all the right cables to your pre-pre-amp loop, amp effects loop, channel switchers, tuner, run the whole thing back and forth from front of stage to the back, think about the placement of a wireless system, various power supplies or battery issues. Yuck. I was more than happy to get rid of the stuff and only pull it out for recording or very few occasions.

And it's not as flexible as I'd need it. I often go from one sound to another that has completely different settings. Back in the days that meant dancing on various switchers and pedals - with zero chance of ever having a clean cut over.

Midi and good multi effect units made that better. A lot better. No "analog" delay or chorus can compete with the studio quality of one of the better digital devices. And there are only two (very recent) programmable EQ pedals that I know of that can produce more than one sound.

I need to be able to go from a soaring EQd lead sound with lots of delay to a sparkly clean, compressed, chorussed clean sound, and from there to my standard JCM800 style rhythm sound with all gadgetry removed from the signal path.

Yes, you can do that with pedals - if you have a refrigerator sized Broadshaw system and a roadie...

So with that in mind I hope that people one day will find a balance again with the fake-vintage hype and find again a middle ground between your Line6/AxeFx simulators and some programmable tube setups. It's really a shame that the best units for those purposes are now 20 years old or so. Modern technology should have given us much better pro-level gear by now.

What would be wrong with a programmable head that has digital effects on board? Hughes & Kettner has something like that now but it's not quite there yet. Marshall tried at some point but made it more of an entry level, non-tube toy with poor build quality.

I just completely disagree. If I had a JMP-1 or triaxis rig, I would still use analog pedals with it and switch and set patches with a voodoo labs gcx gcp. that's it. that's all you need. no bradshaw system or long paragraphs. definitely no line 6 or simulators.

 

[sinner 13]

Well, sure - to each their own. I find pedal boards (and I do have one) to be cumbersome and often unreliable. And that's just the part where on a dark stage and with little time you have to hook up all the right cables to your pre-pre-amp loop, amp effects loop, channel switchers, tuner, run the whole thing back and forth from front of stage to the back, think about the placement of a wireless system, various power supplies or battery issues. Yuck. I was more than happy to get rid of the stuff and only pull it out for recording or very few occasions.

Whut????

Mine has a built in loop...set it and forget it....

Braking your pedal board down every time?
That kind of defeats the whole purpose.......

Two leads and a power cable....
How hard is it to hook that and not screw it up...

 

[MonstersOfTheMidway]

My mainstay setup with my original band during the 90s has always been my trusted JCM800 50w amp in combination with a Boogie V-Twin Preamp and various rack effects. I still love it the way it is and it is actually very flexible (given that the JCM had been modded back in the days to include a nice clean channel that works very well with the Boogie). But it's heavy and takes a moment to set up. That's why I bought a Fender Cyber Twin for the cover band. Call me crazy, but I always liked them for what they are.

But obviously it doesn't have the refined sound you get from a full tube outfit, no doubt.

My next step will be to swap out my old TC G-major (unreliable piece of junk it is) for a G-Force. With that of course I could be using my old setup again on occasion. But I'm thinking even further:

What about a JVM401? I played one recently and liked it much better than Marshalls 90s attempts at multi-channel amps. Combined with a good 2x12 instead of my 4x12 and the G-Force and I should have a mighty yet portable rig.

But then again I'm thinking: wouldn't a sweet old 90s rack offer even more flexibility and ease of setup on stage?

So I'm comparing the benefits of JVM + G-Force to the combination I always had in the back of my mind:

Mesa Triaxis (or Marshall JPM-1) -> G-Force -> Marshall EL34 50/50 -> 2x12 cab (or 4x12 depending on venue, or even both).

I know some people may cringe at the Mesa here but work with me. I always liked the combo of Mesa pre + Marshall power amp - but I'm open to the JPM as well still.

What are the benefits of the two rigs? Disadvantages? I haven't done a weight comparison yet, but I think I could keep the three pieces above in one rack and just add my Furman power supply and my wireless system (if at all) without breaking my back and still have everything set up in a way that all I need to o is plug in 3 cables. Head plus small rack is more wiring and things that can go wrong. But maybe lighter and easier to carry.

Sound obviously is different but all good and flexible. Not sure which I'd like better. Probably the old Mesa+Marshall deal for me and my personal sound.

I'm not sure about the specifics of a "'90's rack," but I agree with you in that a rack system would offer you a lot of flexibility. I also agree with you that your setup and breakdown time would be very fast especially if you have all or most of the pieces already connected.

Additionally, you also mentioned the use of a 2x12 cabinet, which is a good idea since it takes up less overall space and keep the setup/breakdown time low (and is easier on the back). A powerful 2x12 can be more than enough for live performances especially if your cabinet has a microphone in front to a PA system. You could also use two 2x12 cabinets to help spread the sound around if necessary.

I'm a fan of keeping things simple, but everyone's got their own needs. One preamp, one power amp, one rack effects processor, one power conditioner (or voltage regulator if you can afford it) would be pretty good for me (wireless rack units are also an interesting idea). I used to run an Alesis Quadraverb and a Furman PL8 into my old Lead100 Mosfet years ago and I love the sound! I was able to borrow rack-based preamp and power amp to join with my Quadraverb-the sound was impressive!

Since you mentioned the JVM, I have an unmodified JVM410H that I use with one floor-based multi-effects processor. I'm still interested in rack effects, but where things stand for me right now, this is all I need. The flexibility of the 410H is incredible. It sounds great with individual stomp box effects, but also sounds great with multi-effects units and rack units (I demoed a Line6 rack with it once and liked the results).

But there is a way to unite the two technologies using a JVM. One of the great advantages of using a multi-effects with built-in preamp or rack system is that you can connect them via MIDI to make multiple changes simultaneously (when discussing rack units, it is helpful to mention that there are preamp-only rack units, multi-effects-only rack units, or a combination of preamp and multi-effects rack unit). You can create and save presets for your multi-effects and/or rack system and the JVM. For example, in bank 1, you can create a preset (we'll call it Preset A) that engages digital delay with chorus effects in the multi-effects and/or rack system, and also engage the clean channel/green mode on the JVM, so that every time you step on Preset A, the JVM and the multi-effects/rack system change simultaneously via MIDI. This is an incredible time saver (no wasting time turning on/off effects and switching channels).

You can obviously do this type of switching with a rack-based preamp, but the advantage of the JVM is that its preamp is all-tube whereas most rack-based preamps usually do not use preamp tube technology. The JVM uses preamp tubes two preamp tubes for gain stages, one preamp tube to mix the reverb and effects loop, one preamp tube for the phase inverter, one preamp tube for the cathode follower. If you find a rack-based preamp that does uses preamp tubes, it is usually one or maybe two.

I use a floor-based multi-effects unit that that features built-in preamps cabinet emulation, but I usually switch off the built-in preamps and cabinet modulation. But if my amp ever goes down during a show or practice (it hasn't, though), I can switch over to the built-in preamps and cabinet modeling to finish the show (I can save all my preamp, cabinet modeling, eq settings, delays, modulation effects, reverbs, noise gates as presets and then save those presets to files on my computer as backups that load in seconds. I cannot tell you how comforting it is to have this backup technology, and that might be something you could explore as you make your decisions.

Hope some of this helps. Let us know what you decide.

 

[dslman]

I had a set up almost identical to blues n cues, and also ran it in stereo through two heads w/ the G Major 2 . I've since gone back to a mono set up with pedals and I couldn't be happier "mainly due to setup/teardown". Yes you have advantages like ,midi switching to presets predetermined without much pedal dancing ,but you still need some sort of pedal board with pedals and switcher running back to the back line. My wireless was on my pedal board so that was convenient enough. As long as you have buffered pedals going through the loop and in front ,I feel the sound quality is on par. Both set ups have advantages and disadvantages. In life as in music , to gain something ,often something has to be sacrificed. We have to choose what is right for the situation and time we are willing to give to it . Back then, the rack set up was right for me and I knew it, now it''s not. I miss the big stereo clean sound the most ,but I play 80's metal/rock so I had to weigh the situation .

 

[spacerocker]

nobody was happy to get rid of analog pedals.....

Well, I was, and Liberterian obviously was, so that's at least two of us!

I used Distortion, Chorus, Echo, Reverb, Flanging and WAH for years infront of my old 2203!

And was I in tonal heaven? NO! because most of those effects sound better in the loop (Wah excepted, and I no longer need a distortion or OD Pedal...). My G-major rack effects sound far clearer, fuller and better. Want a long delay? easy - store a preset and recall it, along with JVM amp channel using a MIDI controller. Want a shorter delay? Tape Echo? Chorus? Flanging - same!

My analogue pedals sounded flat and mushy infront of an over-driven marshall, with no options!

Quite honestly I am baffled by the popularity of analoge effects infront of single channel amps in this day and age - but, I suppose evryone makes their own choices!.....

 

[mickeydg5]

Oh, I thought this was another thread about Dolly Parton.

Excuse me.

 

[SwampThing]

Crack is whack.