Reel to reel as pre amp and echo

[Blaoskaak]

Hi all!

I finally got a reel to reel. As a blackmore fan i really want to rock through a reel to reel. I got myself a akai gx210D. There are also pedals made from this pre amp, so i thought, lets give it a try.

I have a input and a output channel. Am i supposed to use those channels? If so, how i get the echo?

If i use the mic input for guitar and the output to my amp head, and turn the switch on tape, i dont get a echo, when i hit a string, i got a delay from a half second. But it doesnt repeat.

Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks in advance!

 

[JohnH]

hi @Blaoskaak

That brought back enjoyable memories! I still have an Akai 4000ds, which I bought new in 1979. TBH, I havnt had it going in about 15 years, but I just 'like' it.

These machines I think were around the same time period, and certainly look related in design. I think yours may be a tad higher spec.

I also enjoyed the single echo, and you have two periods available using either 7 or 3.5 inches per second. To get repeats, if I'm remembering (from >40 years ago), I rigged up some connection to feed the playback output back into the line input, having put the original sound into the mic input.

But it's been a while...

Mine also has a sound-on-sound feature, by which I could bounce between two mono tracks, gradually adding overdubs and noise. For that purpose, it switched to using half the recording head for monitoring the previous dubs, to avoid the delay latency. Yours may not have that? But I don't think that was part of getting the ECHO....Echo.....echo....

Here are the two of them:

 

[SkyMonkey]

I used to play around with my dads one as a kid back in the 70's.
Wasn't there separate recording and pickup heads.
You could play and record at the same time, but the recording was made a few inches before the pickup head.
That caused the delay in real time.
But to get repeats you need to feed the playback back into the recording head.

That is how a Copicat tape delay worked too, but with a continuous loop of tape, and multiple moveable heads or something.

*Edit. It was probably variable tape speed actually (and multiple fixed heads).

 

[PelliX]

I still have an Akai 4000ds

Same, I restored one quite recently that I snagged cheap. It really works very well now, given some fresh tape, etc. Lot of elbow grease, not a lost of cost.

Wasn't there separate recording and pickup heads.

The GX's and 4K DS type models have 3 heads, from left to right the erase-, recording and playback head.

But to get repeats you need to feed the playback back into the recording head.

This; the 4000 DS and co have the Tape Monitor switch which effectively gives you a single delayed output to the line out (the delay being the time it takes the tape to travel from the recording head to the playback head). If you want more repeats, you can feed them back in by linking the headphone out (which expectes 8 Ohm headphones and has no volume control on the 4000's) or line out back to an input. The gain on that "loop" determines the "feedback" level of the echo.

Note that the GX2xx don't suffer from the same transistor rot that the 4000 MkI units often did. Also, if you don't care too much about the tape you're using, you can create longer delays by changing the tape path. Underneath the heads there are a set of guide pins that can be used creatively. Don't expect TOO much mileage from the tape, but it works.

Another 'hack' that is not really recommendable, but works is adjusting the mains frequency (NOT the voltage) on those units. Typically they have a 50/60Hz switch which controls the (single) motor speed driving the capstan.



Pic added for completeness. Note that this was before most of the front panel Peek work and elbow grease.

 

[Blaoskaak]

hi @Blaoskaak

That brought back enjoyable memories! I still have an Akai 4000ds, which I bought new in 1979. TBH, I havnt had it going in about 15 years, but I just 'like' it.

These machines I think were around the same time period, and certainly look related in design. I think yours may be a tad higher spec.

I also enjoyed the single echo, and you have two periods available using either 7 or 3.5 inches per second. To get repeats, if I'm remembering (from >40 years ago), I rigged up some connection to feed the playback output back into the line input, having put the original sound into the mic input.

But it's been a while...

Mine also has a sound-on-sound feature, by which I could bounce between two mono tracks, gradually adding overdubs and noise. For that purpose, it switched to using half the recording head for monitoring the previous dubs, to avoid the delay latency. Yours may not have that? But I don't think that was part of getting the ECHO....Echo.....echo....

Here are the two of them:

View attachment 157760View attachment 157761

Maybe it is time to dust it of and made some new memories

I almost bought a 4400d too. But this one was alot cheaper. The owner didnt knew if it still worked. So i got it cheap.

Ritchie used 7inch per second it think, but i noticed my record function doesn't work properly. I got a very thin sound and alot of noise when i have the monitor switch on tape. When i turn the switch on source, the sound is very good. I really like the sound.

I also did some research, and apparently i need a mix table to mix the sound back and het the echo

I used to play around with my dads one as a kid back in the 70's.
Wasn't there separate recording and pickup heads.
You could play and record at the same time, but the recording was made a few inches before the pickup head.
That caused the delay in real time.
But to get repeats you need to feed the playback back into the recording head.

That is how a Copicat tape delay worked too, but with a continuous loop of tape, and multiple moveable heads or something.

*Edit. It was probably variable tape speed actually (and multiple fixed heads).


View attachment 157759

I think all the guitarist back in the days hooked at some point a reel to reel to their amp. It is a must try thing. Especially for the blackmore fans.

i thought about to het a echo pedal, a good one, but i really like the looks of a reel to reel too. A old vintage piece of equipemt looks cool, and always peopel ask what is is, when they see it.

Same, I restored one quite recently that I snagged cheap. It really works very well now, given some fresh tape, etc. Lot of elbow grease, not a lost of cost.



The GX's and 4K DS type models have 3 heads, from left to right the erase-, recording and playback head.



This; the 4000 DS and co have the Tape Monitor switch which effectively gives you a single delayed output to the line out (the delay being the time it takes the tape to travel from the recording head to the playback head). If you want more repeats, you can feed them back in by linking the headphone out (which expectes 8 Ohm headphones and has no volume control on the 4000's) or line out back to an input. The gain on that "loop" determines the "feedback" level of the echo.

Note that the GX2xx don't suffer from the same transistor rot that the 4000 MkI units often did. Also, if you don't care too much about the tape you're using, you can create longer delays by changing the tape path. Underneath the heads there are a set of guide pins that can be used creatively. Don't expect TOO much mileage from the tape, but it works.

Another 'hack' that is not really recommendable, but works is adjusting the mains frequency (NOT the voltage) on those units. Typically they have a 50/60Hz switch which controls the (single) motor speed driving the capstan.

That is some good info, i can tell you know alot. I find out that i must use a mixer table with fx to get the echo repeat. I dont really want to mess with the reel to reel, because i may want to sell once.

Do you maybe know why when i play through the tape setting i have alot of noise and very low output and thin sound?

I have my guitar in mic input. I have a adapter from rca to 3.5mm and adapter from 3.5mm to 6.35 socket and then a cable to my input on the amp head.

Then i have the monitor switch on my R2R on tape.

I also have a tape selector switch, which i can choose between normal and S.R.T. that doesnt seem to do anything.

 

[PelliX]

I also did some research, and apparently i need a mix table to mix the sound back and het the echo

Best solution, yes. Necessary? No, not if you can set the input levels indepedently (like the 4000 DS) and have a Y-splitter. Mixer certainly preferred, also because you could put in a low- and a high shelf. Full spectrum delay is not always the nicest. Your ears, your taste, have at it!

Ritchie used 7inch per second it think

That's a fast delay. You can do the math (7"/s, distance of, what, 0.3" or so....etc). I'd reckon that you would be better off with a deck that even goes down to ~1.8"/s. Quality degrades with lower speeds, but that might just be an interesting effect. As it's entirely analog... it might just sound amazing.

I got a very thin sound and alot of noise when i have the monitor switch on tape. When i turn the switch on source, the sound is very good. I really like the sound.

I don't know how savvy you are, so please don't take this the wrong way. First port of call; HEADS. Can't stress this enough. You want them to look PRISTINE. Q-tips, alcohol. You'll need a few q-tips. Do NOT use metal polish or other chemicals unless you know exactly what kind of heads you're dealing with. Often you can find service manuals online for old kit. Generally they'll recommend headcleaner XYZ *or* isopropanol (alcohol). Get that sorted out before anything else. The record and playback heads. The erase head is more tolerant and often coated in plastic - clean it, but don't worry too much. Chances are it works (it's just blasting the tape with a magnetic field to kill what's on there - not rocket science).

Next: de-magnetize the heads. You can buy a demagnetizer for a tenner or so. Look up how to use one on YouTube. If this is for afternoon fun and fuckery, you can skip this part likely.

Next: Calibration and head alignment. Before the studio afficianados lynch me - I'm writing this for the purpose outlined by OP, NOT to re-master The White Album. Head alignment can be done visually initially. The service manual will outline this. Take a NON-magnetic screwdriver and set the rec and play heads accordingly. That's a ballpark adjustment. If you have pre-recorded tapes that were recorded on a "relatively well calibrated system", use them and your ears to do some fine adjustment. Have a 'scratch' tape handy to verify playback and recording are good enough. What you *want* is a pre-fab calibration tape. Fat chance finding one cheap. If you want this for the best hi-fi reproduction, get one or get the deck calibrated. If you're planning on some afternoon fun and fuckery, you can skip that bit.

Next: biasing and level compensation. For this you want a vacuum tube volt meter or meter with MOhms of resistance tip to tip. A scope with X10 probes and two channels can go a long way if you have one. If all you have is some piece of junk that cost a tenner... well... better than nothing. Depending on the deck you will want to adjust the rec and playback levels to match (so what you record plays back at the same volume) on decent tape. Technically, every single tape manufacturer is a little different and if you're using your grandfather's old BASF's ... expect some stickies, tape shedding, etc. RTM make tape, also 1/4". I recently bought some LPR35 and SM911 of theirs - excellent stuff. That's what all the pros use today IF they're still on tape. 1" or 2" in those cases, not your consumer 1/4" stuff, but it's the same tape just thinner. AFTER you have set the levels, CONSIDER adjusting the bias in accordance with the service manual of your deck. Fine tune by the methods in the manual or by ear. Hint, you will generally need an audio oscillator (aka sine wave generator) for this which can put out 1kHz at ~1.75Vpp. In a pinch, your phone or computer can do this, but without a true RMS meter or a scope the output level is a guess at best. Your multimeter will likely *not* show this correctly unless it boasts doing true RMS (some Flukes and so on).

Now you should have a working deck that sounds, give or take, no worse than a cheapish audio casette from the 90's.

I think all the guitarist back in the days hooked at some point a reel to reel to their amp. It is a must try thing. Especially for the blackmore fans.

Often for the preamps, not even for the delay, though. I'm more the bounce type. Record and bounce it to tape and back perhaps. To each their own.

I have my guitar in mic input. I have a adapter from rca to 3.5mm and adapter from 3.5mm to 6.35 socket and then a cable to my input on the amp head.

Most tape decks of that type expect 1.75Vpp line level signal on their main input. Mic inputs vary a bit. I'd probably at least try to get a buffer in between, like a BOSS pedal - engaged or not engaged. Even better, maybe run the FX send of your amp into the line inputs. Experiment and/or get the exact specs on what it expects. Buffer is recommended though. This info is likely in the service manual.

I also have a tape selector switch, which i can choose between normal and S.R.T. that doesnt seem to do anything.

That will have to do with the type of tape used. On my 4000 DS it's Low Noise or Wide Range, and you have an extra switch for EQ compensation relating to the tape speed (speed itself is not a switch, it's a sleeve on the capstan...).

Are you located in the Netherlands, by chance?

 

[Blaoskaak]

I already bought a mixer, but i dont have cables to hook it up.

The gx4000d has sound on sound, and i find out that the aiwa tp1011 which ritchie used, had it too. So i am afraid i bought the wrong one. Maybe i am going to sell mine.

I really really appreciate the info you gave me, but it sound very complicated haha. I did clean the heads, but that didnt help. But the rest you mentioned is more for someone who knows what to do.

I am indeed located in the Netherlands! You too?

 

[PelliX]

The gx4000d has sound on sound, and i find out that the aiwa tp1011 which ritchie used, had it too. So i am afraid i bought the wrong one. Maybe i am going to sell mine.

Chances are they're not unlike each other on the inside. I'd have to check that to be sure, though. AKAI didn't make these decks themselves, and I don't believe aiwa did either. Why not use this one as a potential sacrificial lamb on your quest? If it was dirtcheap... and you blow it... you can still sell the belts and bits. Not much money in those decks, anyway, really.

I did clean the heads, but that didnt help. But the rest you mentioned is more for someone who knows what to do.

Maybe just go for the alignment and levels? Twisting screws and pots until something sounds about right isn't too hard... skip the rest and see where you get. I'd go for the fun route here, hehe.

I am indeed located in the Netherlands! You too?

Yes, Twente. If you're local, reach out and I'll gladly have a look for you.