Obviously I ruffled a few feathers of the diehard Marshall fanatics on here, that wasn't my intention. The HJS I have is absolutely killer and I was hoping the cabs were the same. Maybe I just got a bad one, and I say that because it was bad and sounded horrible with the stock G12T's, V30's and Greenbacks I tired in it. Maybe my 30 years of playing guitar doesn't give me the credentials o judge good sound. I'll look inside the next one if I ever get myself to try another one.
Sold my 1960A!!
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jack daniels
Well-Known Member
I remember it being said that the Marshall cabs that came w/V30 speakers had particle board backs Vs. Mesa Boogie's similar version 4x12" cab which used plywood backs and were priced less than the Marshall cabs. FWIW
Adrian R
Well-Known Member
Ya, but Adrian has also been a confirmed shiz talker when it comes to Marshall cabs. They've been built the same way for over 40+ years but only the new ones suck...
OUCH!!
I was mistaken dude..and I openly admitted that...I thought my 1960 cab was all built with particle board...but in the end it was just the back panel. It was difficult to tell by all of the over spray.. However, and this is no mistake, that 1960 cab was built like shit..or more accurately, assembled poorly. Like the OP testified...the center brace was loose, and improperly mounted requiring significant repair...other parts of it's assembly I already illustrated in an earlier post...
Bottom line the cab sounded like crap..especially compared to my mid-1980s cab... And what I found so frustrating is that it took me a couple years to figure it out..as it was always my 'show cab'...
But now that I have made the corrections it sounds proper..and the choice of backing material DOES affect the end audible product.
My microstack cabs are made entirely of particle board..and I double checked before making this statement. The baltic birch backs indeed made the speaker cabs perform much better..and sounding similar to what my modified 1960 does...
supershifter2
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i'm a speaker cabinet builder. mdf particle board is stiff and better damps the resonance. cheap furniture particle board is junk. plywood is not as stiff as mdf and resonates. the same speaker in an mfd cabinet will sound different in a plywood cabinet. either one can sound better to "your" ears. my jcm800 2205 amps are the best sounding guitar amps ever made to "my ears". you might say the suck and thats o.k..
Adrian R
Well-Known Member
MDF is definitely not stiffer then 'Baltic' Birch man..no way..And yes, to some, they might prefer the sound of MDF with respect to plywood...but as pointed out...not all plywood is the same...Baltic Birch imo is excellent speaker cabinet building material...
It's really excellent building material period! I love the stuff!
supershifter2
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i have ben building PA and guitar speakers since 1971. MDF is stiffer in that it will not flex from a woofers air pressure like 13 ply no void baltic birch will. You can call the big boy speaker manufactures if you like and ask them for another verification. I'm not going to argue with you. How many speaker cabinets have you built ? Here is a foto of 1 of 4 of the newest one I built last year. These are 13 ply no void 3/4"(actually 23/32" thick) baltic birch rehersal room cabinets.
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Adrian R
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Hey, those cabs look cool! I will admit that I have not actually built speaker cabinets, but I have done a great deal of research, and the consensus of what I have read points to Baltic Birch as being stiffer (and she would agree..lol
)...I will say, by reading between the lines, that some of this is arbitrary to a degree. Not to argue, as this was not my intent, but some of this probably involves application...In addition, other 'guitar speaker cabinet' makers, some well known including Marshall, used Baltic Birch extensively precisely because of perceived structural characteristics..one of which is stability...
I have a couple astronomical telescopes that are built out of Baltic Birch precisely because of it's stiffness... You wouldn't find any well made telescope made of MDF...Optical alignment and support could never be held to critical tolerances.
I forgot to mention briefly what my experience is: I have two cabs as you can see in my signature. One newer, one far older. This all began when I discovered how much better the older cab sounded then the newer cab. In addition to some sloppy assembly of the newer cab, of which was rectified, the newer cab had a particle board back, with a screw securing it to the center. The older cab's back panel was made of MDF, and did not have a screw securing the panel to the center brace. With the help of a friend, we constructed a new back panel out of Baltic Birch. Upon completion a sound tested show both cabinets sounding nearly identical...and 'maybe' with the newer cabinet showing a slight edge in 'snap'/responsiveness...
Lastly, and not to be overlooked..MDF has evolved as a stable substitute to 'expensive', high grade plywood..at least it's impetus in its development anyway..
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I had a buddy who's a carpenter build me a birch box using the 1960a blueprints online. The wood was about $40 at Home Depot, the corners and hardware was $25 on e-bay (used of course), and the speakers were V-30's I found on Craigs List. I'm also going to get him to build me a 2-12 box so I don't have to lug around the 4-12 every time I go to rehearsal. You also get to pick whatever style tolex you want too. Since my head had a few cuts, I re-tolexed it along with the cab.
I did. That's why I opened the 1960, it lacked the tight punch and clarity of the Traynor. So being the way I am I opened up the Marshall and put in the V30's that were in the Traynor. I took it to practice and that was that. So I did lie a bit, I opened it, tried the 30's(and GB's), pulled them and sold it.
Douche!!
Mshayne
New Member
I was also a bit shocked when I opened my cabs but I dont have the option of returning or really selling them so I take it as a chance to learn something and improve what I have
Jezclayton
Member
Some of the most expensive HI-FI speaker cabinets (Meridian for example) are made of MDF and these are built without compromise. As has already been posted the acoustic qualities of good quality MDF are generally superior to ply. The quality is also more consistent.
You prefer the sound of the Traynor which is fine, but I doubt it's because of materials used in construction.
You prefer the sound of the Traynor which is fine, but I doubt it's because of materials used in construction.
Adrian R
Well-Known Member
Several issues: First of all HI-FI speakers are not guitar cabinets man...there is no way you can compare the two. Two completely different applications. I don't think this this needs to be explained as to why. While MDF may be superior to 'some' ply, it is in no way superior to voidless (more expensive..this is key) Baltic Birch plywood man...Do some research and see why. There are indeed some acoustical properties of each that are inherent in the material, but whether one is superior or not is entirely subjective.
Some of you guyz are questioning the OP because he discovered that his Traynor cabinet sounded better then his 1960 cabinet. Just because Marshall's name is on something doesn't necessarily mean it's better. As mentioned earlier, I was DISGUSTED at the sloppy assembly of my 05' 1960..and it's crappy 'particle board' back panel (materials used?)and as such it sounded like shit. I was forced to make fixes and replace cheap materials. Now it is fine... This issue forced me into researching different 'guitar cabinet' makers, and how they are made..I read about the advantages and disadvantages of materials and design..This stuff is not astrophysics fellas..it's basic, basic logic. From what I can see, I believe Avatar for instance makes a better cabinet...and this is before you add price into the equation. There are quite a few members here whom have Avatar cabinets..and their side by side evaluations with Marshall cabinets most DEFINITELY 1999< favor the Avatar..
jack daniels
Well-Known Member
I just found out last night when I was rewiring my 72' Hiwatt cabinet that the original back was made of particle or chip board WTF?
GIBSON67
Well-Known Member
There are a lot of variables going on in guitar cabs, not just the wood or speakers. Wiring, covering, connections, speaker break-in, internal diameter, dampening, porting etc...I have Marshall cabs because I want a Marshall cab, not because they are the best! My JCM800 is better sounding than my 425 to me, but someone else might think the opposite.
And I have always thought MDF was more rigid but less durable than Birch ply. Likewise, aged ply will be more resonant than new ply, no covering will be more resonant than covered etc...
And I have always thought MDF was more rigid but less durable than Birch ply. Likewise, aged ply will be more resonant than new ply, no covering will be more resonant than covered etc...
jack daniels
Well-Known Member
But at least my Hiwatt has porting on the back bottom panel lol.
I don't want to step into a fight, but for Adrian R and supershifter2:
You guys are both right, but you are going back and forth I think because you are talking in different contexts. It's not really important whether the ply or the MDF is "stiffer," but the resonant properties are very important. Ply most definitely resonates, and any resonant object has a resonant frequency based on its physical dimensions and other properties. MDF does not resonate nearly as well.
When you have a strong resonant frequency and the likelihood of resonance in an object that is used to make sound (guitar, amp, etc.), that resonance will color your sound.
Guitards like us want to hear that "woody" "knock" and "whomp" from our guitar cabs. That comes from the color of resonant ply cabinets.
People buying $8500 Genelec studio monitors do NOT want them to be colored when it comes to tone. Hence MDF - or you'll even see plastic or other weird materials.
And there is such a thing as high-quality MDF, just like there's high-quality birch ply.
You guys are both right, but you are going back and forth I think because you are talking in different contexts. It's not really important whether the ply or the MDF is "stiffer," but the resonant properties are very important. Ply most definitely resonates, and any resonant object has a resonant frequency based on its physical dimensions and other properties. MDF does not resonate nearly as well.
When you have a strong resonant frequency and the likelihood of resonance in an object that is used to make sound (guitar, amp, etc.), that resonance will color your sound.
Guitards like us want to hear that "woody" "knock" and "whomp" from our guitar cabs. That comes from the color of resonant ply cabinets.
People buying $8500 Genelec studio monitors do NOT want them to be colored when it comes to tone. Hence MDF - or you'll even see plastic or other weird materials.
And there is such a thing as high-quality MDF, just like there's high-quality birch ply.
keennay
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One day later and I still can't believe you paid $1110 for a newer Marshall cab. Even ~$700 for the Traynor is excessive... they don't have Craigslist Canada or Kijiji over there?
$200-$350 USD is more reasonable in my area.
$200-$350 USD is more reasonable in my area.
I didn't pay $1100, I bought it used. They retail at $1100, excessive for what you get, IMO. Super glad I didn't pay full crack, I'd have been livid!!
