Sound Engineers!

[spacerocker]

Bloody Sound Engineers!

I played a gig at a small indoor festival yesterday with my Marshall JVM410HJS and a 2x12 cab. I set my gear up on stage and left my amp untouched from a similar gig a few weeks previously. We had a great sound at that gig, and my JVM was fairly quiet (to the point I played without my usual ear-plugs, which I almost never do) - but the stage sound was great! My Master Volume was somewhere between 1 and 1.3...

At yesterday''s gig, I sound-checked the guitar, and the sound guy was straight over -"your amp is far to loud!" so I turned it down to about 60% of what it had been. "No - still too loud!" - I said "You're joking, aren't you? it's almost on Zero, and that's quieter than I've ever played anywhere in 40 years! - He looked disbelieving and went to twiddle with the master volume (the wrong one as it turned out - until I put him straight!) and I could see him struggling to get a sound somewhere at the very bottom of the pot. Eventually he settled on a sound he was happy with - which was basically the lowest setting possible, without getting zero volume!!!. (The amp must have been putting out less than 1 Watt!) I said, no, sorry, I 'm not having that it's ridiculous! (it was quieter than when I played guitar in my bedroom at my parents house 40 odd year ago!) He said "don't worry - I can give you plenty in the monitors" I explained I'm a guitarist, and like the sound to come mostly from my cab. So I turned it up slightly, and we did the gig....The gig lasted 3 songs before the (house) bass amp cut out. we carried on whilst they tried to sort it out, then I realised that the PA was dead as well so there were no vocals either! Turns out half the equipment came off one socket and the breaker had tripped....Our bass player was so angry at this point that he almost walked off! They then spent 5 or 10 minutes trying to get the power back on (which they eventually did..)

What is it with these fecking sound engineers? I know they want every instrument to be totally isolated from the others, so that they can control the mix from the front of house - but they need to be sensible about it! I've never been one of those guitarists that crank their amps super-loud on stage, and sod the mix, so I'm willing to play at a reasonable level - but sound guys need to realise that a guitar needs a certain volume to "come alive", sustain, and even do a bit of natural feedback with enough gain!

As our band members said - he was happy with the MUCH louder bass sound, and no one ever tells the drummer to play quieter! I think some so-called engineers see the "Marshall" badges, and see it as some sort of declaration of war, or something!

 

[Vinsanitizer]

If you had shown up with a Fender Blues Junior and set it up on a bar stool, you probably would have had no problems being as loud as your drummer. Sound guys see you rolling in with a big black box with a big white logo, and they immediately go racist.

 

[Jon Snell]

Turn up with a Boogie and I'll mic it up, as if to add to the mix but won't turn the mic on. Too loud anyway!

 

[PelliX]

He looked disbelieving and went to twiddle with the master volume (the wrong one as it turned out - until I put him straight!) and I could see him struggling to get a sound somewhere at the very bottom of the pot.

I dunno, but there are very few people authorized to touch my amps and gear; all of whom I've known for years. "Random" dude will get one warning followed by a Tele. Sound engineer (as he's vaguely qualified) gets a very stern look and a clear instruction to stand back and I'll do the knobs.

I think some so-called engineers see the "Marshall" badges, and see it as some sort of declaration of war, or something!

There's a bit of a stereotype stigma thing, sure. My tip is to talk to the sound engineer before he sees any gear. Throw in a phrase like "we're going to have to get the levels just right for this venue" or ask about the monitors on stage. That way they're less inclined to think you're a neanderthal with a 100W head and an ego problem.

Fact of the matter is that there are loonies out there who will do the weirdest stuff. I've been at a jam session where a bloke on an electric ukelele kept ramping up his practice combo to insane levels.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

sounds like he doesn't know how sound works...

to mic an amp, you must have something to amplify yourself. If you turn up a mic's gain w/o anything to amplify, at some point, you start getting regenerative (recycle) feedback from the room noise.

You must start off w/ something to amplify, or you'll get feedback all night.

somewhat of a signal to noise factor...

sure, there's a balance, but, I'd bet that, if you are at the point that the pot was either on, or off, that, you were well below that balancing point.

I've done sound many years. IMO, best bet, is to have the band turn on w/o any PA/monitors & get a decently balance live room sound, between guitar, bass & drums, etc. If you are balanced, at that point, then mixing will be a breeze. Just add vocals & then get desired volume overall...

I've had my share of guys, who do want to blast their guitar, so loud, that everyone else in the band suffers, but, this doesn't sound like that scenario...

sounds like the place isn't properly set up for a band, w/ only a single breaker...

 

[Jon Snell]

And on the otherhand you get the totally incompetent "engineer" ..... we've all met someone like this;

 

[PentodeLicious]

As a sound engineer I take offense to this thread.
You just experienced an I**** sound engineer with no skill.
Not a real sound engineer.

Unfortunately these m***** sound engineers are everywhere now because it has become so easy with digital equipment to be able to somehow make the sound passable.
I left this profession because of this(also because I needed to eat).

I could not bear these I***** no more.
Telling me that I compress too much or my gain is too high or my mic position should be exactly at the dust cap.
They think they know everything in the world of sound but their mixes and live sound always sound like s***.

My advice to handle these, is to say absolutely yes! to everything they say.
Than a second before the show starts move the master volume to 2.
Just seeing them unable to handle a proper guitar amplifier volume will be worth it.

 

[spacerocker]

As a sound engineer I take offense to this thread.
You just experienced an I**** sound engineer with no skill.
Not a real sound engineer.

I apologise if I caused offence! Perhaps I should have called the thread "Bloody Sound Engineer!"

I appreciate that there are good and bad sound Engineers. I have recently experienced some excellent sound Engineers at other events. Strangely the really good ones don't boss the guitarists around, they just get on with the job effortlessly, and get a great sound! Unfortunately it is the bad (or awkward ones) that stick in the mind!

My advice to handle these, is to say absolutely yes! to everything they say.
Than a second before the show starts move the master volume to 2.
Just seeing them unable to handle a proper guitar amplifier volume will be worth it.

Ha ha - that's tempting! I think in this case it would have been justified! Generally though I try to stay from the stereotype of the guitarist who sound-checks at 1, then turns everything up to 10! Even when we use our own PA, I check the mix out front (with wireless guitar) get it balanced, and then leave my guitar volume alone for the duration of the gig!

 

[PelliX]

I appreciate that there are good and bad sound Engineers. I have recently experienced some excellent sound Engineers at other events. Strangely the really good ones don't boss the guitarists around, they just get on with the job effortlessly, and get a great sound! Unfortunately it is the bad (or awkward ones) that stick in the mind!

I think it helps if you've been on both sides of that fight. To be honest, as a sound engineer I had less fighting guitarists. Singers were the worst for me. "I want more on the monitors" [I push the monitors as far possible without ruining the whole thing]. "I can't hear myself" [I think to myself that the people 2 blocks down probably don't share this sentiment, but OK. It's time do what they want instead of what they say. I turn on the 'verb.]. "Oh, this is much better! .... but wait, there's like a sort of echo?!" [I explain that it's a reverb and she (yes, generally "she") is hearing the tail. If it's dry or without a delay she won't consciously hear it that well.]. "Now I can't follow the music... can you get that louder?" [I explain that if you push everything louder it won't become clearer. We'll be back at step 1, just a few dB's up the ladder...]. As a live sound engineer working with random artists, half your work is getting things to sound right. The other half is carefully determining when and where a placebo is appropriate and administering it.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

I think it helps if you've been on both sides of that fight. To be honest, as a sound engineer I had less fighting guitarists. Singers were the worst for me. "I want more on the monitors" [I push the monitors as far possible without ruining the whole thing]. "I can't hear myself" [I think to myself that the people 2 blocks down probably don't share this sentiment, but OK. It's time do what they want instead of what they say. I turn on the 'verb.]. "Oh, this is much better! .... but wait, there's like a sort of echo?!" [I explain that it's a reverb and she (yes, generally "she") is hearing the tail. If it's dry or without a delay she won't consciously hear it that well.]. "Now I can't follow the music... can you get that louder?" [I explain that if you push everything louder it won't become clearer. We'll be back at step 1, just a few dB's up the ladder...]. As a live sound engineer working with random artists, half your work is getting things to sound right. The other half is carefully determining when and where a placebo is appropriate and administering it.

I had a show, that I was doing sound for, in a small bowl, that was carved out of a hillside. So, the stage, was at the bottom of the hill & the ampitheatre was carved out of the hill & cemented in & the hill went substantially higher that the seating. IIRC, the place held around 500 people, maybe 700.

This guitarist shows up w/ 2 100 watt full stacks & has everything on 10. As he comes up for sound check, he turns it on & it was pretty unbearably loud. He strums a chord & says: "make sure you crank the guitar, that's all we've got!", as if the rest of the band were 2nd class...

The bass payer asked if I could help him out a bit, because his amp was not doing great, so he didn't want to push it too hard.

Ended up, the guitar was overbearing, even w/ everything else cranked through the system.

The singer could not hear himself, because the guitarist was drowning him out. So, he kept saying, more vocals in the monitor, until... he was boxed in, sitting on the drum riser, because if he moved in any direction, 1 foot, he got loud feedback...

He never could hear himself, even though his mic was feeding back, wherever he was. By the time they finished their 3rd song, his voice was thrashed.

People came up to me, saying that everything is too loud, but, especially the guitar, can you turn it down - turn him down?

Sorry, everything was coming from his stacks, I didn't even have a mic on him. Well, there was a mic, but it wasn't on...

I remember people coming from the bowling alley that was ½ mile down the road saying that we drowned out everything inside the bowling alley, because we were so loud.

but... mr double stack, was louder yet...

 

[PelliX]

The singer could not hear himself, because the guitarist was drowning him out. So, he kept saying, more vocals in the monitor, until... he was boxed in, sitting on the drum riser, because if he moved in any direction, 1 foot, he got loud feedback...

Wow, sounds like a total nightmare... I'm just confused how the rest of the band didn't tell him. The singer can't hear themselves, the bass player is reaching out to the sound guys for assistance, what the heck?

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Wow, sounds like a total nightmare... I'm just confused how the rest of the band didn't tell him. The singer can't hear themselves, the bass player is reaching out to the sound guys for assistance, what the heck?

IDK why they put up w/ him...

They were from back east, so they were like a couple thousand miles from home. This was back in the '80s...

I tried telling him that he should turn down, but, he had the mentality, that, if you suck on guitar, all you have to do is turn the Marshalls all the way up & you'll sound good...

He wasn't a bad player. Nothing special, but not bad, just an idiotic mindset...

I like to walk on stage w/ my SVT's w/ 2 8x10 cab's. Usually, the soundguy say, I probably won't run you through the mains, but, during soundcheck, they usually tell me to turn up a bit & then end up adding me into the system...

I use NMV SVT's. I just turn up to the drums, to where I can hear myself, the drums & the guitar. I do want to hear them too. but... I feel it's best to work with the soundguy, not against him. I expect him to work w/ me also though. I'm pretty easy to work w/. My hope is that soundguy is easy to work w/ also. If so, then we can get it done efficiently & to good production.

If he tells me to turn down the bass a little, I'll oblige. Turn up the mids? sure... As long as he seems proficient & just asks, I'll work w/ him. I do not hear what he's hearing out there & if he feels a little tweak will make the band sound better, then I'm for it...

The thing is, a soundguy should know what works best, going into the board, so he can either mix flat & get great results, or do a minor tweak to tidy it up a bit, when cranked out in the crowd... in the venue, he works in & is familiar w/...

 

[jmp45]

I did a weekly youth group thing in the late 90s for a while with a 900 dual reverb half. Sound guy never mic'd it, never went thru the house. I was ok with it though, I cranked it. It was a big room. A couple times I loaded in my 2204 half.