The invention of super-high-gain - why did it take this long?

[JacksonCharvelAddict]

To be cynical...My guess is as new and young instant gratification guitar players were developing who wanted to be “guitar heros” right away (unlike the true guitar heros that put their time in mastering their skills and techniques over several decades) they figured out super ultra high gain can hide their noob mistakes and the market for such amps increased lol! I know there are several great super high gain players out there but super high gain makes a noob sound much better in this instant gratification world we now live in.

I think high gain can actually make bad players sound worse. Every mistake gets amplified more. EMGs hide weak notes behind compression to make your playing sound more even. I think the big thing to cover up mistakes is using lots of reverb.

 

[MarshallDog]

I think high gain can actually make bad players sound worse. Every mistake gets amplified more. EMGs hide weak notes behind compression to make your playing sound more even. I think the big thing to cover up mistakes is using lots of reverb.

Thats not been my experiences, it muddles everything, no clear notes to wring through!

 

[RCM 800]

I think high gain can actually make bad players sound worse. Every mistake gets amplified more. EMGs hide weak notes behind compression to make your playing sound more even. I think the big thing to cover up mistakes is using lots of reverb.

lol I use slap delay to hide my slop-fests.

 

[JacksonCharvelAddict]

lol I use slap delay to hide my slop-fests.

No judgement here dude. Do what you need to get by.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

I agree but I dont need super high gain for that. Just enough past edge of breakup to get it done.

And that's why they make different amps with varying amounts of gain. I want my chords to sustain forever and bloom to feedback with lots of saturation and generally can't get the power section cooking. Far beyond edge of breakup.
The Jubilee was too gainy for you as I recall and I love my JVM!
Marshall thankfully makes something for everyone IMO.
I think the Studio Series is one of the smartest thjngs they have done in ages.

 

[El Gringo]

And that's why they make different amps with varying amounts of gain. I want my chords to sustain forever and bloom to feedback with lots of saturation and generally can't get the power section cooking. Far beyond edge of breakup.
The Jubilee was too gainy for you as I recall and I love my JVM!
Marshall thankfully makes something for everyone IMO.
I think the Studio Series is one of the smartest thjngs they have done in ages.

A most perfect post and I agree 100% in how I like my chords to sustain and go to feedback ,to my ears it is such a perfect tone . It's like the first time probably in the mid 70's when I heard a friends brother play thru a Boogie MK 1 and the rich tone and sustain that he was getting playing a old 50's Strat with single coils no less and as a 15 year old kid my mind was blown and exploded at how he was getting that sound with no pedals . Where we were using Big Muffs and Silver face Twin Reverbs and we always got the wrong kind of attention with the proverbial door knock/ door bell ringing .

 

[Comfort Cove]

This is the weirdest thread in some ways . . . we used more gain touring and recording in the 80s than players do today. "high gain" and "ultra high gain"? When you have your Marshalls and Voxes routinely catch fire, and have fire extinguishers at hand because you know it's going to happen? That's high gain. When everything is on Max and nowhere to go and your only master volume is a Sholtz Power Soak? That's high gain. When you strip agart a Vox V15 or a Marshall 20 watt head, rip the output transformer and power tubes out of it, and wire up to the Driver stage output and run that into the input of your Marshall or Vox and the tubes glow like lightbulbs? That's high gain. 100% THD and every other form of distortion.

Modern High Gain? 50% THD, gigantic low mid boost centered at 400hz with a bell curve at 2-2.5 octaves wide.

I have always preferred tone over gain anyhow, but theres a way to do both. The new Hot Mod with 2 12AX7 tubes for the second stage is amazing. I'm using it in my 1977 JMP 2203.

Anyhow . . . just my free opinion.

 

[Old Punker]

This is the weirdest thread in some ways . . . we used more gain touring and recording in the 80s than players do today. "high gain" and "ultra high gain"? When you have your Marshalls and Voxes routinely catch fire, and have fire extinguishers at hand because you know it's going to happen? That's high gain. When everything is on Max and nowhere to go and your only master volume is a Sholtz Power Soak? That's high gain. When you strip agart a Vox V15 or a Marshall 20 watt head, rip the output transformer and power tubes out of it, and wire up to the Driver stage output and run that into the input of your Marshall or Vox and the tubes glow like lightbulbs? That's high gain. 100% THD and every other form of distortion.

Modern High Gain? 50% THD, gigantic low mid boost centered at 400hz with a bell curve at 2-2.5 octaves wide.

I have always preferred tone over gain anyhow, but theres a way to do both. The new Hot Mod with 2 12AX7 tubes for the second stage is amazing. I'm using it in my 1977 JMP 2203.

Anyhow . . . just my free opinion.

Holy crap! Marshalls and Voxes catching fire? Was this really happenning?

 

[JacksonCharvelAddict]

Holy crap! Marshalls and Voxes catching fire? Was this really happenning?

I think we need to hear more about this.

 

[Greg70]

In response to the earlier posts in this thread about what took Marshall so long, I think they were reacting to what people wanted. I remember reading interviews in my guitar magazines in the mid 80s and a lot of the guitar heros of the day said they preferred old Marshalls. These guys were either on a stage or in a recording studio and it didn't matter if they had to dime them to get a lot of overdrive. Marshall was more of a boutique manufacturer at that time.

That was the age of the guitar hero and every zit-covered teenager wanted to play hair metal so they could get laid. (It never helped me. Obviously it was because my Floyd Rose II couldn't dive bomb and stay in tune, and had nothing to do with my shyness or childhood obesity LOL) Most kids couldn't afford a half-stack anyway, and if they could they were WAY too loud for a bedroom. So instead we used solid state combos with distortion pedals. But this wasn't Marshall's market. The only Marshall I could afford in 1985 was the 9 volt battery one that clips on your belt! I think they also made a solid state mini stack with 10"? speakers. They were primarily a high end professional level manufacturer and their primary customers used their amps at high volume where there was plenty of overdrive to be had.

 

[Kinkless Tetrode]

Just about everybody who didn't have a Modded Marshall, or a Boogie, used distortion and overdrive pedals, anyway. Even a "clean" boost is pushing that V1 tube.

 

[abkeller1]

There's so many high gain amps now plus modeling amps for high gain. Diezel, Mesa,EVH, Engl, Fractal. These are all high gain and very clear at the same time.
Regarding Marshall's I use my JCM 2000 on OD1. It's pretty high gain for a Marshall yet retains some of that classic sound at the same time. Speakers are just as important using Marshall Vintage speakers.

 

[abkeller1]

There's so many high gain amps now plus modeling amps for high gain. Diezel, Mesa,EVH, Engl, Fractal. These are all high gain and very clear at the same time. However regarding Marshall's my JCM 2000 DSL 50 can be high gain using OD1 but still retain some of that classic sound. Speakers are really important. I use Marshall Vintage 30's.

 

[EADGBE]

I wonder why it took so long for amps to get to the high gain territory?

Well I supposed they waited until guitarists' tastes changed. I believe Boston sort of ushered in the high gain sound. And probably so did Van Halen. Before that maybe Jimi Hendrix. Until the high gain amps caught on people just used pedals to overdrive the amp. Personally I love the sound of my TSL60s without pedals better than a lower gain amp with them.

 

[Comfort Cove]

Holy crap! Marshalls and Voxes catching fire? Was this really happenning?

I don't know what else to explain . . . I used to run 4 AC30s with 1/2 a Vox V15 as a monstrous gain preamp in front of them driving them into candyland. And also did the same with an old 20 watt into JMP 50 or 100 watts. (1987 or 1959 models)

The amps were dimed, except for bass on 5, and power soaks as master volumes since I didn't really know how to do the mod, and didn't like the results anyhow.

And all that heat, and the kickback from the Power Soaks? Things caught fire.

 

[El Gringo]

Marshall amps are meant to be played loud enough for the design features to shine . They are not a bedroom amp . Ditto for the Celestion Vintage 30 speaker or the Marshall branded Vintage 30 speaker . In the speakers and cabinets section some are disparaging the Vintage 30 speakers as being nothing special . Once again there has to be a fair amount of volume used in order to take advantage of the design and achieve the maximum benefit of the wonderful mid range goodness that these speakers project . I have found on my 2555X's that the sound only starts to bloom when both volumes are on at least 5 . Anything less is where the gripers start with the fizzy remarks and that is somewhat true if you don't use some decent amount of volume . Marshall's are not bedroom amps to be played quietly .

 

[trax1139]

To be cynical...My guess is as new and young instant gratification guitar players were developing who wanted to be “guitar heros” right away (unlike the true guitar heros that put their time in mastering their skills and techniques over several decades) they figured out super ultra high gain can hide their noob mistakes and the market for such amps increased lol! I know there are several great super high gain players out there but super high gain makes a noob sound much better in this instant gratification world we now live in.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!

 

[Old Punker]

Marshall amps are meant to be played loud enough for the design features to shine . They are not a bedroom amp . Ditto for the Celestion Vintage 30 speaker or the Marshall branded Vintage 30 speaker . In the speakers and cabinets section some are disparaging the Vintage 30 speakers as being nothing special . Once again there has to be a fair amount of volume used in order to take advantage of the design and achieve the maximum benefit of the wonderful mid range goodness that these speakers project . I have found on my 2555X's that the sound only starts to bloom when both volumes are on at least 5 . Anything less is where the gripers start with the fizzy remarks and that is somewhat true if you don't use some decent amount of volume . Marshall's are not bedroom amps to be played quietly .

That makes total sense. Although I have been able to get some really nice tones on my SC20H using the 5W setting, the real magic happens when you open up the 20W mode to MV 5+. Since I play in my basement I couldn't turn it up anywhere near the sweet spot without doing further damage to my ears and really pissing off my wife/neighbors. So I bought an attenuator and that made a Huge difference. Even with the attenuator I still find myself playing louder than I did without it, but not loud enough to get arrested.

I guess some folks may be buying these thinking they will be a great bedroom amp but that's not really the case unless you can attenuate/isolate.