The Orange Sound

[FleshOnGear]

I was A/Bing my Marshall and Orange tonight, and marveling at the differences in tone between those amps. I think the key to the Orange sound is the cathodyne phase inverter into EL34 output tubes. The cathodyne distorts differently than the long-tail pair of most other guitar amps, and it has just enough output swing to distort the EL34s, but not by much.

To my ears, the long-tail pair has a rounder clip, with “swirling” harmonics, and it cleans up better. The cathodyne sounds stiffer, punchier, fuzzier. It cleans up OK, but not as gradually as the long-tail pair.

Also, the James/Baxandall tone controls of the Orange make a difference vs the Marshall, but not as much as the phase inverters. It’s too bad Orange doesn’t make any amps like the OR120/80 anymore. They really have a unique sound, and nothing on the market today touches that tone.

 

[Mike_LA]

Glad you enjoy them. I've had a crush, dark terror, tiny terror, micro terror, but never bonded with them. Guess I need to try a real full sized one.

 

[Browneyesound]

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To my ears, the long-tail pair has a rounder clip, with “swirling” harmonics, and it cleans up better. The cathodyne sounds stiffer, punchier, fuzzier. It cleans up OK, but not as gradually as the long-tail pair.

So kinda like a high power tweed deluxe with EL 34s.

 

[Ronquest]

Which Marshall you're comparing? Looking at your Sig, I'm assuming the Orange is your OR120.
Can you post a comparison video? What cab or cabs?

I've never really looked at an Orange schematic, until now. And I've never played one.

There's so much different with the circuit from the input to the negative feedback, the OR is no orange Marshall.
Every gain stage is drastically different than Marshall.
Higher value plate resistors (all stages)
Tone stack after first stage.
No cold clipper.
No cathode follower at the end driving a tone stack.
Full bypass on each stage (not much low end roll off)
PPIMV on Orange vs Marshall pre-inverter MV (800 type)
Feedback implementation and no presence.
The hardcore DC coupled cathodyne inverter.
List goes on........

I'd imagine a good bit of preamp overdrive and some grid bias shift going on in the preamp leads to a bit of that fuzz and swirl too.

Kind of tempted to build one now, maybe in a 50 watt version and in a Marshall head! I do have a Hammond AO35 (el84) on the shelf, OR18, hmmm.

 

[FleshOnGear]

Which Marshall you're comparing? Looking at your Sig, I'm assuming the Orange is your OR120.
Can you post a comparison video? What cab or cabs?

I've never really looked at an Orange schematic, until now. And I've never played one.

There's so much different with the circuit from the input to the negative feedback, the OR is no orange Marshall.
Every gain stage is drastically different than Marshall.
Higher value plate resistors (all stages)
Tone stack after first stage.
No cold clipper.
No cathode follower at the end driving a tone stack.
Full bypass on each stage (not much low end roll off)
PPIMV on Orange vs Marshall pre-inverter MV (800 type)
Feedback implementation and no presence.
The hardcore DC coupled cathodyne inverter.
List goes on........

I'd imagine a good bit of preamp overdrive and some grid bias shift going on in the preamp leads to a bit of that fuzz and swirl too.

Kind of tempted to build one now, maybe in a 50 watt version and in a Marshall head! I do have a Hammond AO35 (el84) on the shelf, OR18, hmmm.

I’m mainly comparing it to my 1987. Yes, there are a lot of circuit differences, but I’ve always had the impression that NMV amps tend to distort the most at the phase inverter, which is why I singled out that section of the designs. I’ll try to get a comparison clip together next time I’m home alone and can ease off of the attenuator. Not sure when that will be.

 

[Ronquest]

I’ve always had the impression that NMV amps tend to distort the most at the phase inverter

Yes, no, and it depends.

In general and I'm sure debatable.
Using Identical amps, but with and without MV.
Yes - If the master volume is before the inverter and "if" it is attenuating the signal, then it will distort the inverter less then a non master volume.
No - If the master volume is PPIMV (post phase inverter master volume) and is attenuating the signal going to the power tubes then the inverter can be over-driven more at a lower volume than a non master volume.
Depends - The design can dictate if the inverter is always clean, always distorted, or somewhere between the two.

In order to get a non master volume amp to distort it's inverter, you generally have to be real loud. A PPIMV can push the inverter to overdrive/distort at any volume.

In your amp examples the Orange's cathodyne inverter does have a less pleasing distortion than the Marshall's long tail. Now, at what point are they actually distorting, your going to need an oscilloscope for that. General design practice is to have the power tubes saturate/overdrive/distort before the inverter distorts, so the inverter should be capable of fully over-driving the power tubes first. Not that anyone follows general design practices, thankfully!

Most of the distortion we hear is in the preamp section prior to the inverter. Books have been written and heated forum debates continue.......

 

[FleshOnGear]

Most of the distortion we hear is in the preamp section prior to the inverter. Books have been written and heated forum debates continue.......

I certainly don’t feel like opening up the amp and scoping it again, and I certainly don’t feel like having a heated debate. I will get you your comparison clips, though, in time.

 

[Ronquest]

I certainly don’t feel like opening up the amp and scoping it again, and I certainly don’t feel like having a heated debate. I will get you your comparison clips, though, in time.

LOL, no heated debate from me, I left that stuff back at MYSPACE.... exhausting.
I'm on an Orange binge now.
Later!