NAD! Early 70s Orange OR120 [Orange OR120 vs. Matamp GT120 vs. Matamp Series 3000]

[nevermind]

IMHO, Orange Amps are creamier/fizzier (not flubby) than the sharp, cutting gain you get on a Marshall. My OR15 is different enough that it stays on the stack o' amps with a Mark VII, SV20 and a 5150. My ABC switch really needs a D.

https://www.marshallforum.com/media/img_0631-copy-jpg.14623/

 

[TheKman76]

Poop on it all you want.

I should have been clearer, sorry. Not having a go at the Tonex, I'm a digital use too.

What I mean to say is that recommending a digital device to someone looking to but a valve amp seems misguided. That said, your point seems to have been well ratified by the OP. Sooo.... I'm gonna shut up now.

 

[solarburn]

Love Orange amps. Marshall my fav but Orange is real good. I do like their voicing just like certain Marshall’s.

The way I play these days I’d get this one.

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[Central Scrutinizer]

Great responses to the question.

I agree with @DumpsterChicken Andy Powell from Wishbone Ash has great tone. And is a rather famous Flying V player as well @FleshOnGear !

Orange amps are very impressive IMHO.

 

[neikeel]

I’ve had several Oranges from 60s and 70s. They are in general loud and relatively clean until you get to earth shaking volumes that they are totally capable of creating. They have lots of headroom and thick lower Mids. The FAC and boost can give you various front end tones but I would think of them as best suited for doom and stoner. I still have two early 70s 4x12 cabs (G12H30 75Hz) and my clone of a 60s of the 2000 (30w version of the above using RS iron) as it is a different flavour of a JTM45 that I can overdrive/clean old school with guitar.
IMO the 120 is like NMV 70s Superleads - great amps from a previous era were heft and volume ruled.
Andy used 1969/70 OR100s but pretty much as a pedal platform. Lately he has been using Rockverbs too. I missed last tour but hope to catch up soon.

 

[ampeq]

Although I don’t like Orange amps very much I would say if you can swap one for the other go for it. The big thing I really don’t like is their speaker cabs. They use the grill design as part of what makes the sound, the jute is covered with something. I have tried 2 but sent them back. To get a very unique sound, out of any amp really, try a good 5 band equalizer. Don’t get more than a 10 band, it will drive you crazy. But something like a Mesa 5 band will open up a world of music fun for you. I can make my X100b combo sound very cool simply by moving one or two sliders. They boost and cut the frequency.

 

[blue]

I have an early 70's OR120. As mentioned above, it is collossally loud! and doesn't produce nearly as much distortion as a Marshall, and what it does is thicker sounding, more lower mids than the Marshalls I'd say, which could be why they get described as fuzzy. It's closer to my '69 Super PA, but the Orange has a woodier, richer tone. definitely an amp that benefits from a good attenuator

 

[purpleplexi]

I had a rocker 50 for a while. It wasn't a whole different world to Marshall more like a different shade of the same colour. It went in the end - don't remember that much about it really.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I had a rocker 50 for a while. It wasn't a whole different world to Marshall more like a different shade of the same colour. It went in the end - don't remember that much about it really.

I don’t think modern Oranges really have the same sound, but that notion is based on having heard recordings of different vintage and modern Orange amps, not personal experience.

At this point I’m hesitating to buy the one I was checking out, because the listing is somewhat vague in its description of the amp’s condition, and the seller won’t respond to my messages. Here’s the listing. I don’t like that he says the amp is sold as-is, but doesn’t detail it’s current condition. Personally I would be fine with original transformers and no DOA, but I can’t tell if that’s what I would get.

BTW, how can I tell if the transformers are original? Do you know about Orange components, @neikeel?

 

[ampeq]

Not for nothing, but $2000 at Ceriatone is "skies the limit". Even if you really, really want an Orange amp I would stay away from that one. Your spidey senses are already telling you that, trust them. I have never played an Orange amp that I was impressed with anyway, but that seems like a lot for a little. I hate to see you get boned my friend.

 

[FleshOnGear]

Not for nothing, but $2000 at Ceriatone is "skies the limit". Even if you really, really want an Orange amp I would stay away from that one. Your spidey senses are already telling you that, trust them. I have never played an Orange amp that I was impressed with anyway, but that seems like a lot for a little. I hate to see you get boned my friend.

Yeah, I think you’re right, unfortunately. That price, as exorbitant as it seems, is in line with what has actually sold on Reverb. There are just too many questions about the condition of the piece, though, and the guy is MIA.

As far as buying a clone vs. a real Orange goes, I would prefer an actual Orange. I don’t really believe that there’s that much magic in the tone of a vintage amp compared to a clone. As lame as it sounds, I have to admit that I’ve become a bit of a collector - mostly of player grade equipment, but still a collector.

 

[neikeel]

Looking at the pictures I can see:
Replaced handle
Missing back panel
Added standby switch (I presume)
Can't see enough of the transformers etc to say anything useful
I sold x2 early 70s OR120s and 73 Matamp 100 all around the £1000-1500 mark all in A1 working order in past 2 years if that gives you a guide.
The point has been made the early ones are big and bold, not for feint hearted and a good attenuator essential, they are as unforgiving of your playing as Hiwatts.
You really should try one first. Some people love them. Best one I played was early 70s with laydown trasnfommers and the pcb mounted preamp tubes,
The early OR100s and GRO100s are great and if you find an original unmolested one that is what I would get.

 

[FleshOnGear]

@neikeel have you played a current Matamp? I found a video comparing a recent Matamp GT120MV to a [edit: clearly 90’s reissue] Orange Overdrive model.

The playing is sloppy, and this guy managed to make the GT120MV sound pretty bad, but IMO the Orange sounded decent despite the player’s ineptitude.

I ask about the Matamp, because I figure it’s wired much like the older Orange amps.

 

[ampeq]

Yeah, I think you’re right, unfortunately. That price, as exorbitant as it seems, is in line with what has actually sold on Reverb. There are just too many questions about the condition of the piece, though, and the guy is MIA.

As far as buying a clone vs. a real Orange goes, I would prefer an actual Orange. I don’t really believe that there’s that much magic in the tone of a vintage amp compared to a clone. As lame as it sounds, I have to admit that I’ve become a bit of a collector - mostly of player grade equipment, but still a collector.

One will pop up when you least expect it, tuck a few bucks away for when it does. Nothing wrong with collecting, just remember some day you may have to eat the stuff you collect. Therefore condition counts, as well as being all original. (Also makes it much easier to sell.) Do people make clones of Orange amps? I don't remember seeing them, but I would think someone would. They pop up fairly often, I think waiting for the right one is a good move.

 

[FleshOnGear]

Do people make clones of Orange amps? I don't remember seeing them, but I would think someone would.

There were some that made clones, but they don’t seem to be around anymore. Ben Verellen has stopped taking orders for amps, probably to focus on his band. There was Dunwich Amplification, but they went out of business. There’s Electric Amps, but they have a bad reputation for taking years to fulfill orders. Apparently there’s not a huge market for handmade Orange/Matamp style amps.

I’m kinda liking the idea of the currently produced Matamp Series 3000. It’s described as being descended from the Series 2000 and ORST, but with a cathode biased 30 watt output section and tube rectification. I’ve only found clips of it played clean, so the question is, will it doom?

 

[FleshOnGear]

I found this clip of an old Matamp Series 2000.

That amp sounds killer. Kinda makes me lean towards getting the Series 3000. It’s definitely a different sound from the OR120 or GT120, though.

 

[TheKman76]

Man, that got a sound!

 

[neikeel]

I found this clip of an old Matamp Series 2000.

That amp sounds killer. Kinda makes me lean towards getting the Series 3000. It’s definitely a different sound from the OR120 or GT120, though.

That is the one out of all the Oranges and Matamps that I have kept. It is fixed bias with cathodyne PI, RS HD PT for 350-0-350 ac, RS Deluxed OT and 20H choke - ie exactly same as 64 JTM45. The front end selectors are very like the FAC on a 70s 120. Mats experimented with where to place that selector in the circuit. Earliest after inputs, sometimes after first stage before the boost, sometimes with a bright cap switchable and front end local feedback. All very interesting and I retro marked up the different circuits (various versions I’ve posted out there). Mine (and the one in the clip is a Bass version (couplers in amp mainly 0.047uF). If you look in my threads you will see pics (compare with the Chambonino - Champ electronics pics on his website). AFAIK the current Matamp is cathode biased with two EL34s do output stage is different. I’ve not played the new version. The newer modern oranges are very different with much higher gain and wide EQ to suit modern players.

 

[FleshOnGear]

That is the one out of all the Oranges and Matamps that I have kept. It is fixed bias with cathodyne PI, RS HD PT for 350-0-350 ac, RS Deluxed OT and 20H choke - ie exactly same as 64 JTM45. The front end selectors are very like the FAC on a 70s 120. Mats experimented with where to place that selector in the circuit. Earliest after inputs, sometimes after first stage before the boost, sometimes with a bright cap switchable and front end local feedback. All very interesting and I retro marked up the different circuits (various versions I’ve posted out there). Mine (and the one in the clip is a Bass version (couplers in amp mainly 0.047uF). If you look in my threads you will see pics (compare with the Chambonino - Champ electronics pics on his website). AFAIK the current Matamp is cathode biased with two EL34s do output stage is different. I’ve not played the new version. The newer modern oranges are very different with much higher gain and wide EQ to suit modern players.

I saw a schematic that’s supposedly of a Matamp Series 2000 preamp, including the PI and driver. It shows the depth control right at the input; a negative feedback loop around the first stage with the drive and boost controls affecting the frequency and amount of feedback; the James tone network after second stage; and the driver stage has a fully bypassed cathode, with no negative feedback connection from the power amp.

Based on your description, it sounds like these amps varied in their wiring? Does your Series 2000 have no power stage feedback? The Matamp website says the Series 3000 power amp combines aspects of the ORST and Series 2000. How does the ORST power amp differ from the Series 2000?

Sorry for all the questions, I’m just fascinated by this stuff. I’m also looking for more reasons to purchase the Series 3000, since I doubt I’ll ever see or afford a 2000. Thanks!

 

[neikeel]

Yep that schem is one we made (my son,James, is now an embedded systems design engineer). The feedback is local early in preamp and no power stage NFB. That also applies to the ORST. However the OR100 of similar preamp etc does have NFB.
The boost on the 2000 and ORST works like a distortion knob!