Thoughts on using a digital multi-fx with classic amps?

[zachman]

Please, no need to apologize, but I do really appreciate your good nature on trying to clarify your point so it wouldn't come out harsh. Thanks for taking the time man. I see a lot of people on the internet getting real nasty about such little things. And also, you have a very valid and useful point there and I'll try to learn from it. Sound and tone experiment can be a world on its own and it really would do good for me if I can dive more into it......What usually happens is that I'm always so anxious to start playin that I try to get a good tone quick so I can start jamming or practicing and not having to worry anymore about it. To be dialing parameters, saving shit, assigning data etc. on sounds that most of the time I hear kind of artificial just drives me crazy! Tone is immensely important to me but I usually like something not overproduced but raw with not much more than a good amp distortion and maybe an overdrive. But as we already said, this is a world for everyone and nothing is written in stone. Saludos!

Ya, I separate out my time between practice, jam time, Band rehearsals and live gigs, and just having fun- which includes experimenting with tones and the gear that makes it possible.

Here is a clip of me playing through the big rig. The 1st half is experimenting with clean tones, and the 2nd half was me experimenting w/ VH1 tone @1:45.



Here's another... I defy you to 'hear' any digital artifacts (W/D/W ftw for eliminating MOST of that unwanted stuff). My normal settings. fyi the reverb is an EMT plate in the H8000FW. The delay is the TC 2290. NO Distortion or Fuzz, or Overdrive. That's the amp's natural gain

 

[Dmann]

here is a Clip of the Axe-Fx III, This is 100% Modeling and Impulse Response, and current Firmware.... and I also defy you to 'hear' any digital artifacts.

IMO he's using a little too much pre gain, but it's his dial in, and his ears, so it's how he hears it.



You could easily replace the modeling with a real Amp in 4CM and with a little time spent EQ'ing you'd have this entire set of effects in a single preset.

 

[zachman]

here is a Clip of the Axe-Fx III, This is 100% Modeling and Impulse Response, and current Firmware.... and I also defy you to 'hear' any digital artifacts.

IMO he's using a little too much pre gain, but it's his dial in, and his ears, so it's how he hears it.



You could easily replace the modeling with a real Amp in 4CM and with a little time spent EQ'ing you'd have this entire set of effects in a single preset.

And then... If the amp went down at a gig, you have a built in redundant backup available in the Axe too. Fantastic piece of gear!

 

[giblesp]

I was undecided between digital fx and analog pedals also. I ended up going pedals, and glad I did. My new BOSS Waza Chorus completely slaughters any fx in my Kemper. I'll still use the latter for recording, because of the convenience.

Other factor for me, my pedals will be timeless but my digital gear will probably be old and retired within a decade.

All subjective though, Billy Corgan uses a Helix fx and was happy to make the change from traditional pedals. With the quality of digital fx nowadays, you can choose either or really.

 

[peterplexi]

I've been looking at a helix to replace my pedalboard using 4cm. It looks amazing but I'm wondering if I would spend more time tweaking then playing. I got rid of a kemper and went back to real amps just for that reason. For me, I think it would just be more things to tinker with. However, I can see the huge benefit of using a helix with real amps.

 

[peterplexi]

Seriously check out the Boss MS-3. The Helix is far too expensive to use as an effects processor imho.
...and much more complicated to program. The MS-3 is so simple yet does everything that you need. You can easily program 4 sounds per song with several modifiers per patch!

 

[SkyMonkey]

The Boss MS-3 is basically the GT-100 engine with 3 external FX loops, no expression pedal or looper, MIDI out only, and the option to connect 2 external footswitch/expression units (i.e. upto 4 CTL switches).
The interface looks less user friendly to use, but when connected to Boss's Tone Studio app, programming is similar to the GT's.
I think I might have gone for the MS-3 instead of the GT-100 if I had known about it.
I don't use the expression pedal or looper much (bought an RC-3), and use Tone Studio for programming.
Hmmmmm.....

 

[Gunslinger1]

I have an original Digitech RP80. I have used it to do most of my recording. I tried using it at gigs and did not like it. I've been playing for 53 years. I have a 2008 JCM2000 DSL401. I don't like the effects loop so go straight into the amp. My main amp is a Carvin Nomad and I use the effects loop but not for all my pedals. I run my Boss chorus and tremolo, my Arion phase shifter , my MXR analog delay and my MXR ten band EQ through the effects loop. I run my Boss tuner, compressor and Blues Driver direct into the amp. Get great tones for all styles. Played a gig with a guy who had a multi effects pedal. He came over and complimented me on my tone. It may cost more but you have more control . Don't use the Blues Driver with My Marshall. Have enough gain with OD1 and OD2.

 

[Brewski]

I've been looking at a helix to replace my pedalboard using 4cm. It looks amazing but I'm wondering if I would spend more time tweaking then playing. I got rid of a kemper and went back to real amps just for that reason. For me, I think it would just be more things to tinker with. However, I can see the huge benefit of using a helix with real amps.

get the headrush. its easy to use and worx great as a multi fx unit into a tube amp

 

[SkyMonkey]

JCM2000 DSL401. I don't like the effects loop so go straight into the amp.

That could be because of the parallel FX Loop.
I traded by 401 in for a series loop 40CR for just that reason.
The 401 loop killed all my TBEs when I first tried to hook it up to my (then) GT-10 in 4CM.
No amount of tweaking (kill-dry, etc.) could fix it.

 

[What?]

I got one of those Supernatural reverb pedals in. It's ok for a pedal, but it still leaves me longing for the sound of springs. The tail is pretty long, and the decay control doesn't seem to have a satisfying range over it. And the reverb doesn't integrate with the guitar signal in the same sort of way as nice builtin spring reverb. It sounds to me like a guitar signal and a reverb signal kind of side by side rather than being integrated as one. It will do for now, but it's definitely temporary for me. I'm thinking that I'm about done with digital all together actually, even for effects only. I'm not some major analog / tube snob, but my ears want to hear what they want to hear, and digital never seems to get me there for anything to do with guitar sounds.

 

[zachman]

I got one of those Supernatural reverb pedals in. It's ok for a pedal, but it still leaves me longing for the sound of springs. The tail is pretty long, and the decay control doesn't seem to have a satisfying range over it. And the reverb doesn't integrate with the guitar signal in the same sort of way as nice builtin spring reverb. It sounds to me like a guitar signal and a reverb signal kind of side by side rather than being integrated as one. It will do for now, but it's definitely temporary for me. I'm thinking that I'm about done with digital all together actually, even for effects only. I'm not some major analog / tube snob, but my ears want to hear what they want to hear, and digital never seems to get me there for anything to do with guitar sounds.

Should've just got a spring reverb in the 1st place

 

[What?]

Should've just got a spring reverb in the 1st place

Yep. Ain't nothing like the real thing.

 

[peterplexi]

There are a ton of great processors out there but they really got the interface right on the MS-3. Very natural almost dare I say transparent buffering for the 5 cable method. Very easy to program without the editor as well. Very quick and glitchless switching as well

 

[SkyMonkey]

There are a ton of great processors out there but they really got the interface right on the MS-3. Very natural almost dare I say transparent buffering for the 5 cable method. Very easy to program without the editor as well. Very quick and glitchless switching as well

I just found out the patch PC# is programmable too.
For a MIDI switching amp like a DSL40CR/100HR that means you can assign any amp channel to any patch.
With my GT-100 the PC#s are fixed in a repeating pattern (1,2,3,4,etc.).
So you can only have one of each channel in a 4 patch Bank.
The MS-3 gets more tempting all the time.

 

[zachman]

I just found out the patch PC# is programmable too.
For a MIDI switching amp like a DSL40CR/100HR that means you can assign any amp channel to any patch.
With my GT-100 the PC#s are fixed in a repeating pattern (1,2,3,4,etc.).
So you can only have one of each channel in a 4 patch Bank.
The MS-3 gets more tempting all the time.

Just throwing this out there....
IF you can assign CC#'s to each MIDI Channel per effect in the chain, you may be able to gain some programming flexibility to address the limitation

 

[SkyMonkey]

IF you can assign CC#'s to each MIDI Channel per effect in the chain, you may be able to gain some programming flexibility to address the limitation

The only MIDI amp I have had is the DSL40CR, and I have abandoned trying to use CC#'s to affect the amp.
The 40CR can only react to CC#'s to switch MV's or turn the FX Loop ON/OFF.
Using CC#'s to switch uses up valuable CTL footswitches that I can put to better use.
They are made doubly redundant since I can use the PEDL-91016 (6-button) in conjunction with MIDI.
So it's great to have the option, but don't use the PEDL-91016 much as I don't play lead (i.e. MV's) and always have the Loop on.

The channel switching limitation with a Boss GT-100 is that the PC#'s are pre-mapped and are not programmable.
From the DSL manual: "Amp channels mapped to every four PC values". i.e. 0=Clean, 1=Crunch, 2=OD1, 3=OD2, 4=Clean, etc.
Each 4-patch Bank has to have all four 40CR channels in a row.
If you want two significantly different Classic Crunch variations you have to switch Banks.
The MS-3 gets around that by allowing PC# assignment, per patch.

BTW I don't think CC#'s are assignable to each effect in a chain (in a GT-100 at least).
They are assignable as transmitted 'in-patch' messages, of which upto 8 can be sent with the press of a CTL footswitch, if you fully assign all the 8 'Assigns' available in a patch.
This may be useful with more MIDI capable amps, but it's largely useless for the two CC# 40CR.

All that said, I am actually fairly happy with the controllability I get from the GT-100/DSL40CR.
But one day a JVM could throw all that out of the window!

 

[zachman]

The only MIDI amp I have had is the DSL40CR, and I have abandoned trying to use CC#'s to affect the amp.
The 40CR can only react to CC#'s to switch MV's or turn the FX Loop ON/OFF.
Using CC#'s to switch uses up valuable CTL footswitches that I can put to better use.
They are made doubly redundant since I can use the PEDL-91016 (6-button) in conjunction with MIDI.
So it's great to have the option, but don't use the PEDL-91016 much as I don't play lead (i.e. MV's) and always have the Loop on.

The channel switching limitation with a Boss GT-100 is that the PC#'s are pre-mapped and are not programmable.
From the DSL manual: "Amp channels mapped to every four PC values". i.e. 0=Clean, 1=Crunch, 2=OD1, 3=OD2, 4=Clean, etc.
Each 4-patch Bank has to have all four 40CR channels in a row.
If you want two significantly different Classic Crunch variations you have to switch Banks.
The MS-3 gets around that by allowing PC# assignment, per patch.

BTW I don't think CC#'s are assignable to each effect in a chain (in a GT-100 at least).
They are assignable as transmitted 'in-patch' messages, of which upto 8 can be sent with the press of a CTL footswitch, if you fully assign all the 8 'Assigns' available in a patch.
This may be useful with more MIDI capable amps, but it's largely useless for the two CC# 40CR.

All that said, I am actually fairly happy with the controllability I get from the GT-100/DSL40CR.
But one day a JVM could throw all that out of the window!

 

[What?]

With the wetness on that Supernatural pedal dialed within a small range, it really is pretty good for a pedal. Go a little over that range or a little under and it loses cohesiveness with incoming dry sound, which is unlike nice spring reverb builtin to a nice amp. Just updating here that I did find a small wetness range where I like using the pedal.

 

[zachman]

With the wetness on that Supernatural pedal dialed within a small range, it really is pretty good for a pedal. Go a little over that range or a little under and it loses cohesiveness with incoming dry sound, which is unlike nice spring reverb builtin to a nice amp. Just updating here that I did find a small wetness range where I like using the pedal.

Now all that's left for you to do is some comparative clips between the Pedal and a real spring reverb tank