V30 and Greenback mix

[Georgiatec]

With that equation I am looking at a 40 watts from the combo, and 75 watts from the speaker set? I plan to use the internal speaker with the cab!

Should be good to go?

Yes. In the case of using a separate cab in addition to your internal speaker you add the two together to give your power handling. So internal V-Type (70 watts) + Greenback 2 x 12 (50w) gives you a power handling of 120w. Same as if you had a 100w Super Lead connected to two 100w Greenback 4 x 12's the power handling is the two cabs added together (200w).
If you swap the internal speaker for a greenback the power handling drops to 75w with all three connected....still okay, but, I would be tempted to put a 65w Creamback in the combo. It has a very similar tone to the Greenback but would let you use the combo minus the extension if needed. One Greenback on it's own won't last long in a 40w combo.

 

[JBA]

Yes. In the case of using a separate cab in addition to your internal speaker you add the two together to give your power handling. So internal V-Type (70 watts) + Greenback 2 x 12 (50w) gives you a power handling of 120w. Same as if you had a 100w Super Lead connected to two 100w Greenback 4 x 12's the power handling is the two cabs added together (200w).
If you swap the internal speaker for a greenback the power handling drops to 75w with all three connected....still okay, but, I would be tempted to put a 65w Creamback in the combo. It has a very similar tone to the Greenback but would let you use the combo minus the extension if needed. One Greenback on it's own won't last long in a 40w combo.

Hold on to your underwear.. it’s not so simple .

-First let’s assume it’s connected to impedance match the cab and internal speaker so 16 ohm V plugged into the 8 ohm out. Then either an 8 ohm cab plugged into the 4 ohm tap (if this amp has it?..two 16 ohm greenies in parallel) OR a 16 ohm cab plugged into the 8 ohm tap ( two 8 ohm greenies in series). In these two scenarios above you get half the amp power going to the 70 w V and the other half going to the now 50 w cab. Take the lowest wattage and multiply times two giving you 100 watt system rating. That is best case power handling for this setup.

A setup that will sound better is equal power to all speakers so let’s say all 16 ohm speakers plugged in with slight impedance mismatch. I won’t get into the wiring arrangement but this scenario then gives the lowest wattage speaker x3 so in this case 75 watt speaker system handling. The key to realize here is once you get over 75 watts each greenback sees more than 25 watts (how much more they can actually take is another topic)

Another option some of us use will send a bit more power to each greenback and a bit less to the internal (V in this case) landing the total 3 speaker power handling around the 60 watt mark believe it or not!

cheers!

 

[JBA]

The V30's are out of the cab, and the Greenbacks are in. Its like night and day! I have so much more control of the EQ now. The V30's dominated the whole rig!

As explained, I am using the internal V-Type with the cab. I think the V-Type is a bit more sterile tonally. Its hard to tell in the mix, but I am going to grab another Greenback for the internal speaker.

Thanks everyone

How many ohms is the cab and what two outputs do you have your cab and internal speaker connected to? There are some better and worse connection options to use here. These options can balance open back vs closed back efficiency differences, and speaker efficiency difference as well. They can also help if your cab is on the floor and your amp is on top OR if your cab and amp are both on the floor OR if they are separated in a left to right arrangement and you choose what side you stand on etc.. Lots of “control” over how your system plays and sounds can be had if you like.

Somehow I think you might eventually come to find that the 2x12 greenback cab sounds best on its own if it’s a closed back wink..wink.. Some real shitty phase issues occur if you mix open with closed (surprisingly some seem to like it anyway). If it’s open back, then you’ll probably rather all 3 connected.

 

[Georgiatec]

Hold on to your underwear.. it’s not so simple .

-First let’s assume it’s connected to impedance match the cab and internal speaker so 16 ohm V plugged into the 8 ohm out. Then either an 8 ohm cab plugged into the 4 ohm tap (if this amp has it?..two 16 ohm greenies in parallel) OR a 16 ohm cab plugged into the 8 ohm tap ( two 8 ohm greenies in series). In these two scenarios above you get half the amp power going to the 70 w V and the other half going to the now 50 w cab. Take the lowest wattage and multiply times two giving you 100 watt system rating. That is best case power handling for this setup.

A setup that will sound better is equal power to all speakers so let’s say all 16 ohm speakers plugged in with slight impedance mismatch. I won’t get into the wiring arrangement but this scenario then gives the lowest wattage speaker x3 so in this case 75 watt speaker system handling. The key to realize here is once you get over 75 watts each greenback sees more than 25 watts (how much more they can actually take is another topic)

Another option some of us use will send a bit more power to each greenback and a bit less to the internal (V in this case) landing the total 3 speaker power handling around the 60 watt mark believe it or not!

cheers!

The OP has already posted that he's put two 8 ohm Greenbacks in series in the 212 to give a 16 ohm cab. So he has a 16 ohm internal combo speaker and a 16 ohm cab into the 2 x 16 ohm outputs...Simples. Whether it's 100 or 120 watts is no problem for a 40w amp.

 

[JBA]

The OP has already posted that he's put two 8 ohm Greenbacks in series in the 212 to give a 16 ohm cab. So he has a 16 ohm internal combo speaker and a 16 ohm cab into the 2 x 16 ohm outputs...Simples. Whether it's 100 or 120 watts is no problem for a 40w amp.

Should anyone tell the poor lad half his power is going to the V and a quarter to each greenback? Not the way I’d do this.

 

[paul-e-mann]

I dont like V30 by itself or mixed, just dont like them so I dont recommend them for anything...

 

[Alestir]

Should anyone tell the poor lad half his power is going to the V and a quarter to each greenback? Not the way I’d do this.

Uhhm, what am I doing wrong now? After a couple days playing with this setup, the V is standing out in the mix. I thought this was because the combo is on top of the cabinet.

Enlighten me!

 

[JBA]

Uhhm, what am I doing wrong now? After a couple days playing with this setup, the V is standing out in the mix. I thought this was because the combo is on top of the cabinet.

Enlighten me!

Ok no worries, I figured you would pick up on that. Going by Georgiatec said that you mentioned you have two 8ohm greenback wired in series for a total cab of 16 ohms (please correct us if this is wrong).

First try plugging the 2x12 into the 16 ohm output and the V into the 4 ohm output. This will really lower the volume/power on the V since it is closer to your ears. This puts your amp well within its impedance mismatch capabilities.

If by chance you feel you need more volume from the V then try it in the 8 ohm output. This is as much safe mismatch that you can run.

lLet me know how that works for you. I’m going on a trip tomorrow so I may not answer right away.. I’ll try to keep an eye out for your replies.

cheers

 

[Alestir]

Ok no worries, I figured you would pick up on that. Going by Georgiatec said that you mentioned you have two 8ohm greenback wired in series for a total cab of 16 ohms (please correct us if this is wrong).

First try plugging the 2x12 into the 16 ohm output and the V into the 4 ohm output. This will really lower the volume/power on the V since it is closer to your ears. This puts your amp well within its impedance mismatch capabilities.

If by chance you feel you need more volume from the V then try it in the 8 ohm output. This is as much safe mismatch that you can run.

lLet me know how that works for you. I’m going on a trip tomorrow so I may not answer right away.. I’ll try to keep an eye out for your replies.

cheers

Interesting! I'll give that a go. Thank you

On edit: This is the open back version of the Orange 2x12

 

[Matthews Guitars]

Once again, the max power you can put into a cabinet is the lowest speaker power handling capacity multiplied by the number of speakers in the cabinet.

Let's take an extreme example: I have a 4x12 loaded with THREE later edition "bump back" EVM-12Ls rated at 300 watts each, and I have installed a fourth speaker, a Celesion G12M20, rated at 20 watts.

Despite the fact that the three EVs can handle NINE HUNDRED watts between them, the Celestion can only handle 20.

Since there are four speakers connected in the cabinet, as soon as the Celestion gets more than 20 watts it could blow.

So, the power handling of the cabinet is limited to EIGHTY watts. That's 20 times four.

The limit is the weakest link.

Do you get it now?

Let's not even bother with trying to figure out how the different cabinet impedances affect the distribution of power. It isn't even relevant to this specific line of discussion. Your most delicate speaker multipled by number of speakers in use determines your maximum power level you can fed to your speakers without damaging any of them.

 

[JBA]

Interesting! I'll give that a go. Thank you

On edit: This is the open back version of the Orange 2x12

Considering these are all 98 dB speakers in open back’s with the combo stacked on top, my bet will be that the 4ohm tap for the v will likely be the best.

 

[JBA]

Once again, the max power you can put into a cabinet is the lowest speaker power handling capacity multiplied by the number of speakers in the cabinet.

Let's take an extreme example: I have a 4x12 loaded with THREE later edition "bump back" EVM-12Ls rated at 300 watts each, and I have installed a fourth speaker, a Celesion G12M20, rated at 20 watts.

Despite the fact that the three EVs can handle NINE HUNDRED watts between them, the Celestion can only handle 20.

Since there are four speakers connected in the cabinet, as soon as the Celestion gets more than 20 watts it could blow.

So, the power handling of the cabinet is limited to EIGHTY watts. That's 20 times four.

The limit is the weakest link.

Do you get it now?

Let's not even bother with trying to figure out how the different cabinet impedances affect the distribution of power. It isn't even relevant to this specific line of discussion. Your most delicate speaker multipled by number of speakers in use determines your maximum power level you can fed to your speakers without damaging any of them.

Once again, the max power you can put into a cabinet is the lowest speaker power handling capacity multiplied by the number of speakers in the cabinet.

Let's take an extreme example: I have a 4x12 loaded with THREE later edition "bump back" EVM-12Ls rated at 300 watts each, and I have installed a fourth speaker, a Celesion G12M20, rated at 20 watts.

Despite the fact that the three EVs can handle NINE HUNDRED watts between them, the Celestion can only handle 20.

Since there are four speakers connected in the cabinet, as soon as the Celestion gets more than 20 watts it could blow.

So, the power handling of the cabinet is limited to EIGHTY watts. That's 20 times four.

The limit is the weakest link.

Do you get it now?

Let's not even bother with trying to figure out how the different cabinet impedances affect the distribution of power. It isn't even relevant to this specific line of discussion. Your most delicate speaker multipled by number of speakers in use determines your maximum power level you can fed to your speakers without damaging any of them.

Like Georgiatec said it doesn’t matter in this scenario, as all options are safe from a power handling point of view.

I’m sorry but your lowest power times 3 statement is only correct for certain scenarios. The point here is we can guide folks that need to balance individual volumes to suit their application (like I’m trying to do here) and easily calculate the resultant power handling while not posting ...so we don’t drive everybody nuts.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

Since we can't expect most players to take the time to do the branch current calculations in a multiple cabinet, multiple impedance setup, just let them go with my rule of thumb and they'll always be safe.

 

[Alestir]

Since we can't expect most players to take the time to do the branch current calculations in a multiple cabinet, multiple impedance setup, just let them go with my rule of thumb and they'll always be safe.

It seems to be a great discussion, and a learning experience for me.

Thank you everyone.

 

[Georgiatec]

Uhhm, what am I doing wrong now? After a couple days playing with this setup, the V is standing out in the mix. I thought this was because the combo is on top of the cabinet.

Enlighten me!

As JBA said the voltage is evenly distributed between the combo and the cab to give a balanced load to the OT. The way you are doing it now is safe and I would not change anything. Do not use different outputs than the 2 x 16 / 1 x 8 as this will sound lousy and may overheat your OT.
Once the Greenbacks are broken in you will hear them more. Try the Greenbacks on their own (use the 1 x 16 output) as your ears will be used to the V-Type, so your amp set up may favour it. Set your amp up for the Greenbacks, this may then make them more dominant in the mix. It is a balancing act and of course, the design of the combo cab and the Orange 212 is also a factor in percieved volume, As is the distance you are from the rig.
Try setting the combo slightly off centre on top of the cab, with the 212 facing directly at you....there are lots of solutions.

 

[JBA]

As JBA said the voltage is evenly distributed between the combo and the cab to give a balanced load to the OT. The way you are doing it now is safe and I would not change anything. Do not use different outputs than the 2 x 16 / 1 x 8 as this will sound lousy and may overheat your OT.
Once the Greenbacks are broken in you will hear them more. Try the Greenbacks on their own (use the 1 x 16 output) as your ears will be used to the V-Type, so your amp set up may favour it. Set your amp up for the Greenbacks, this may then make them more dominant in the mix. It is a balancing act and of course, the design of the combo cab and the Orange 212 is also a factor in percieved volume, As is the distance you are from the rig.
Try setting the combo slightly off centre on top of the cab, with the 212 facing directly at you....there are lots of solutions.

I don’t understand why you are spreading false general rules and saying things like stick with 1x16 and 1x8 or the transformer will over heat and it will sound lousy: This is all simply not true.
Yes, the 16 ohm tap has more capacitive coupling and “electrically” is the tap of choice to transfer power, but its a guitar amp designed to use any tap, and we are talking about “guitar sound quality” not an audio file system here. (Unless you are telling us all that this amp has a design issue (or shitty tx) and has been known to overheat when using the 4 ohm tap?.. but I don’t recall reading this anywhere.) Some folks rather use the 4ohm tap for its “fizz” reducing effect. As an example, two 8 ohm v30’s for me would be wired to go on the 4 ohm tap vs the 16 on a dsl because it accomplishes a better overall sound. Chinese Greenbacks in this scenario I’d wire for 16 ohms. Anyway, one way is not better or worse but yet can be used to our advantage.

As for all the various load options and speaker volume control techniques I’m helping this gent with here.. we don’t put all this good stuff in manuals because it confuses customers and thus is expected to greatly increase warranty issues (revenue loss). It works, is extremely usefull, and is 100% safe when done correctly within a specific margin.

 

[Georgiatec]

I don’t understand why you are spreading false general rules and saying things like stick with 1x16 and 1x8 or the transformer will over heat and it will sound lousy: This is all simply not true.
Yes, the 16 ohm tap has more capacitive coupling and “electrically” is the tap of choice to transfer power, but its a guitar amp designed to use any tap, and we are talking about “guitar sound quality” not an audio file system here. (Unless you are telling us all that this amp has a design issue (or shitty tx) and has been known to overheat when using the 4 ohm tap?.. but I don’t recall reading this anywhere.) Some folks rather use the 4ohm tap for its “fizz” reducing effect. As an example, two 8 ohm v30’s for me would be wired to go on the 4 ohm tap vs the 16 on a dsl because it accomplishes a better overall sound. Chinese Greenbacks in this scenario I’d wire for 16 ohms. Anyway, one way is not better or worse but yet can be used to our advantage.

As for all the various load options and speaker volume control techniques I’m helping this gent with here.. we don’t put all this good stuff in manuals because it confuses customers and thus is expected to greatly increase warranty issues (revenue loss). It works, is extremely usefull, and is 100% safe when done correctly within a specific margin.

I know it sounds shit 'coz I tried it with my Astoria, which has the same set of outputs. The volume drops & tone loses dynamics. I didn't leave it connected long enough to cause a problem but I can pretty much guarantee there would have been that smell of cooking kippers before long.
You cannot connect one 16 ohm load to the 16 ohm tap and another 16 ohm load to the 4 ohm tap without issues.
There are safe ways to connect different impedance loads without causing problems, but the OP has two 16 ohm loads and it's simply not advisable to use anything other than the 2 x 16 ohm taps. This is a Vietnam built budget Marshall and will not have the quality of OT that will tolerate miss-matches.
I am not offering false "general rules". What I am saying is the correct way of doing things, if you want to avoid issues that will void any warranties.

There is another of the Vietnam made amps (Origin 20) that if you connect to the wrong output will blow the OT in pretty quick time.

 

[JBA]

I know it sounds shit 'coz I tried it with my Astoria, which has the same set of outputs. The volume drops & tone loses dynamics. I didn't leave it connected long enough to cause a problem but I can pretty much guarantee there would have been that smell of cooking kippers before long.
You cannot connect one 16 ohm load to the 16 ohm tap and another 16 ohm load to the 4 ohm tap without issues.
There are safe ways to connect different impedance loads without causing problems, but the OP has two 16 ohm loads and it's simply not advisable to use anything other than the 2 x 16 ohm taps. This is a Vietnam built budget Marshall and will not have the quality of OT that will tolerate miss-matches.
I am not offering false "general rules". What I am saying is the correct way of doing things, if you want to avoid issues that will void any warranties.

There is another of the Vietnam made amps (Origin 20) that if you connect to the wrong output will blow the OT in pretty quick time.

Alright lets put the assumptions and pride aside in order to circle back to facts. If the tx winding can handle one 4 ohm load on its 4 ohm tap alone it can certainly handle a 16 or 8 ohm plus the full load current from the 16 ohm tap, this is all still less current than the output transformer is rated for. The primary will see slightly greater “reflected” current although the amp is not some limitless power source. A dsl40 amplifier operates safely with these two mismatches. Running an additional 16 ohms on the 4 ohm tap is like sticking your hand out the window of your car while driving.. not going to wreck the engine even if it’s an import. You are armed with some basic electrical knowledge great. I designed amps for a living.

 

[Georgiatec]

Alright lets put the assumptions and pride aside in order to circle back to facts. If the tx winding can handle one 4 ohm load on its 4 ohm tap alone it can certainly handle a 16 or 8 ohm plus the full load current from the 16 ohm tap, this is all still less current than the output transformer is rated for. The primary will see slightly greater “reflected” current although the amp is not some limitless power source. A dsl40 amplifier operates safely with these two mismatches. Running an additional 16 ohms on the 4 ohm tap is like sticking your hand out the window of your car while driving.. not going to wreck the engine even if it’s an import. You are armed with some basic electrical knowledge great. I designed amps for a living.

Cool.....so try it with your 40dsl and post up what happens.

 

[junk notes]

I dont like V30 by itself or mixed, just dont like them so I dont recommend them for anything...

..and adamantly, at least To me @pedecamp. They now offer two types to add, or throw off the confusion.
& to be fair they sound great like a T75 - "when cranked".