Was I Ripped OFF?

[nedcronin]

Well, seeing how you had a successful working relationship with the guy I can see how it could have been too easy to trust him. I hope somehow this works out and you get some satisfaction. Welcome to the forum

 

[Wycked Lester]

you definately got hosed....i can't imagine letting it go on that long but whatever,.. Never the less, sounds like your tech is a scam artist so I think you should post the name of the shop so everyone knows to steer clear.

 

[travisbickle777]

As soon as I get all my bases covered, I will let everyone know who the lucky guy is. Thanks for all of your inputs!!!!!!!!

 

[tarznamps]

As soon as I get all my bases covered, I will let everyone know who the lucky guy is. Thanks for all of your inputs!!!!!!!!

Yes - let us know.

I don't know how the legal system works - but if you paid for parts (xformer) and he DID NOT put one in there, you prove it, you win.

Did you get a invoice for the $1,100. What is the breakdown of parts and labor? If you didn't get one, he will now fake it by putting a lot of labor and few parts since it will help his case.

I would get some quotes from techs to do the same work he did to show that he over charged for work that was not needed or not done.

 

[tubes]

Hi Travis,

Can't help you technically or legally.
Just wanted to add my sympathy.

People often tell me I'm an exceptionally patient person - but you take the cake in that department:
waiting FIVE YEARS to get an amp serviced??!!
And still PAYING for the 'service'.

As for your tech, maybe he just lacks business/management skills.
I mean, he got a sticky problem and kept postponing it until the situation became ridiculous.

With the time and money that was spent, he could have sourced second (and third) opinions and advice (and parts) if he had been determined to solve the problem.

My day job involves customers needing service to electronic equipment.

Sometimes this means there is a detailed, annoying, unprofitable learning experience in the technical department.

I bet the members here who service amps would say they have had the same experience with electronics from time to time.

And we don't realise how lucky we are...
Don't worry about bumming us out: you get my respect for looking after your brother, toiling at your $10/hr job and still keeping up with your other interests, despite the setbacks.

 

[stax]

I would attempt to sue him and even more so if you are a working musician, you can't "work" without your "tools". Have your new tech document everything he finds then file the papers. The law requires a reasonable amount of time for the work to be done, this wasn't that.

After 5 years I would have expected/asked to not pay a cent for labor and asked for the receipts from the people that did the tranny work.

 

[ironlung40]

I would attempt to sue him and even more so if you are a working musician, you can't "work" without your "tools". Have your new tech document everything he finds then file the papers. The law requires a reasonable amount of time for the work to be done, this wasn't that.

After 5 years I would have expected/asked to not pay a cent for labor and asked for the receipts from the people that did the tranny work.

That is the key in this argument though. He waited 5 years! It must have not been that important to him, or he would've got the amp back way before then. As for paying, if you're stupid enough to pay that much money after a 5 year wait and for little to no work being done, then you deserve to be out all of that money and time.

No offense to the OP, but damn what where you thinking. Or rather, you were "Not" thinking!

I just feel that the OP's procrastination and lack of assertiveness brought on his own demise in this situation. It is not the tech's responsibility to get an amp back to a guy. If his turnaround time is not quick enough, the owner must go get his amp. The Tech could have most likely sold or kept the amp, and stated that it was unclaimed property due to the 60 + months he had it.

And to the OP, I don't mean offense to you. I'm glad you're a member on this forum. I sympathize with you for sure.

 

[tarznamps]

That is the key in this argument though. He waited 5 years! It must have not been that important to him, or he would've got the amp back way before then. As for paying, if you're stupid enough to pay that much money after a 5 year wait and for little to no work being done, then you deserve to be out all of that money and time.

I just feel that the OP's procrastination and lack of assertiveness brought on his own demise in this situation. It is not the tech's responsibility to get an amp back to a guy. If his turnaround time is not quick enough, the owner must go get his amp. The Tech could have most likely sold or kept the amp, and stated that it was unclaimed property due to the 60 + months he had it.

And to the OP, I don't mean offense to you. I'm glad you're a member on this forum. I sympathize with you for sure.

NO NO NO! There is no justifying what the tech did and it's not the owners fault that the guy NEVER fixed his amp, moved, gave him the run around, lied, ripped him off, etc.

Like the OP said, he had "life" situations that made the amp not important for a while.

He was taken advantage of and I would try to sue the hell out of him.

 

[nikininja]

Dunno how the law stands in the states, but here in the UK you pay for something it belongs to you.
You spent $800 on a output transformer, you want a $800 dollar power transformer. Your owed one and you have a legal right to one. The guy cant charge you any markup, just add the cost of delivery. His earnings come from his labours, i.e diagnosing the fault and fitting the thing.

Bank statements (the withdrawl/bank transfer transaction) stands as evidence of the sum you paid, along with his receipt/invoice and corresponding dates. Plan your attack carefully mate. You can trounce a business in a small claims court, if they operate like ours and you can't take formal legal representation. Just don't play all your cards from the start, or give the goon any forewarning.

If I were the judge, you'd get everything the scumbag owned, including his missus, kids and fetid underwear.

 

[crossroadsnyc]

Here's my defense if I'm the tech:

"Well, travisbickle777 dropped his amp off with me all the way back in 2005, so I'm quite familiar with this customer of mine. The problem with Mr. travisbickle777, is that upon the time he delivered the amp to me to work on, he did not have the money to pay for the work ... in fact, Mr. travisbickle777 didn't wind up paying me for the parts until 4 years later. Since he was a long standing customer before this (and always expressed how pleased he was with my work), I was gracious enough to house his amp in storage, for free, until the time in which he was able to pay me for the parts ... which, as I stated, was not until 4 years AFTER he dropped off the amp.

In the past year, Mr. travisbickle777 expressed his apologies in the 4 year delay, and also expressed that due to the inconvenience he placed on me, that I was under no obligation whatsoever to get his amp to him by a specific date ... that essentially, I could place it lower on the priority list as to not have to interfere with my other current business.

Upon picking the amp up ... and I should point out that at this point it had been over 5 years ... I urged Mr. travisbickle777 to plug into his amp while at my shop since it'd been a very long separation, and I wanted to see how pleased he would be with my work, since I've always enjoyed seeing how pleased he's been in the past ... unfortunately, he declined, and took the amp without playing it here ... as he himself has already pointed out and admitted to. I found this to be a little strange, but seeing as how he was a long standing customer who has always been pleased with my work, I didn't push the issue.

Over a period of many years, Mr. travisbickle777 and I have had a very warm, gracious, and enjoyable working relationship. He has never once demonstrated any sort of behavior like this in the past, nor did I ever anticipate it ... which is why I agreed to take his amp in, for free, and store it in my storage for 4 years, for free, until we were finally able to get to work on his amp.

I'm terribly sorrowful for Mr. travisbickle777, as it appears he is in some sort of situation in which it is forcing him to act out of character. About all I can say, aside from laying out the truth of the story, is that I went above and beyond in trying to help what I considered a very dear customer, and when he last left my shop, he was very pleased and excited to get home. What happened to the amp after leaving my shop, or what has happened in Mr. travisbickle777's personal life, is not something I can speak to. Only Mr. travisbickle777 knows the answer to this ... and while I am aware it may expose holes in his personal life, I'm hoping he'll shed some additional light on why we are really sitting here.

To Mr. travisbickle777, directly, while I'm disappointed in your creation of this situation, I do thank you for your years of loyal service ... I'm sorry for whatever is going on in your life which has created this new demeanor, and I want to wish you the very best in getting things straightened out in your personal life"

That's it. I'd turn it around on you, your shady behavior for the past 5 years, and then insinuate that you have very serious personal issues that have driven you to the point of trying to defraud people ... marital problems? financial problems? employment problems? drug use? whatever ... the focus would be on you. No, it's not fair, but that's the brutal truth you might face.

Oh, and I'd be sure to sue you for court costs, defamation, and whatever other baloney I could squeeze in there to bleed you dry ... or at least cause you a lot more pain financially and mentally.

Point being? This is legal defense 101 ... take this as a lesson learned and move on.

 

[tarznamps]

Here's my defense if I'm the tech........ This is legal defense 101 ... take this as a lesson learned and move on.

Good defense but it is a lie according to the OP.

1. Given $100 down to fix the problem.
2. Gave customer the run around for years, blaming it on the Xformer company.
3. He didn't ask for the $800 until he admitted he didn't have enough money to even buy the part. He was also having other $$$ problems ie. foreclosure.
4. Finally after being threatened with law enforcement - he says it will be done by Friday.
5. In the end he was paid $1,100 and IT STILL DOES NOT WORK!

There is no defense for that. None!

What does the receipt say? Are parts and labor broken down?

 

[crossroadsnyc]

Good defense but it is a lie according to the OP.

1. Given $100 down to fix the problem.
2. Gave customer the run around for years, blaming it on the Xformer company.
3. He didn't ask for the $800 until he admitted he didn't have enough money to even buy the part. He was also having other $$$ problems ie. foreclosure.
4. Finally after being threatened with law enforcement - he says it will be done by Friday.
5. In the end he was paid $1,100 and IT STILL DOES NOT WORK!

There is no defense for that. None!

What does the receipt say? Are parts and labor broken down?

Of course it's a lie. However, if you are guilty, your only chance for getting off the hook is creating doubt, and turning the case against the prosecution ... unfortunately that means having to exploit the weaknesses in not only the case itself, but hopefully the personal life of the accuser.

There are a lot of holes in this story:

Why did he wait 5 years for the amp?

Why was he patient for 5 years (again, 5 years?!?), and then suddenly flip out and call the police? Was this not a phone call that should have taken place long before? Especially if you're concerned you might be getting ripped off?

If you suspected something was wrong, and felt you were getting the run around for years, why did you continue leaving the amp there?

If you suspected something was wrong, and felt you were getting the run around for years, why would you hand over $800 in cash to someone you don't trust? Why did this payment happen 4 years after the fact ... and after you had already said you expressed doubt in the operation?

What does a $100 deposit have to do with anything? As pointed out, he didn't wind up paying for the parts for an additional 4 years (again, 4 years?1?).

Why did he decline to play the amp before leaving the shop? I mean, if you've been skeptical of someone for 5 years, wouldn't you take 5 minutes to make sure you're not being screwed?


See, this is only a couple of minutes of coming up with very elementary questions that I'd direct at the prosecution .... and you can rest assured that they would absolutely create doubt in the mind of a jury. Nobody leaves something of value with someone they don't trust for 5 years. Nobody. And you certainly don't double down on it with $800 4 years into the nightmare.

I'm giving travisbickle77 the benefit of doubt in trusting his story ... and I think there is a bias on the forum to stick together and protect each other in cases like this ... but to some little old lady on a jury who has no clue what a Marshall amp is, she's going to be focused on the credibility of the story.

Sorry, but it's easy to attack the credibility of the story.

 

[nikininja]

Is it usuall practice to pay for something before work is commenced?

A very easy out.

When you go to the shop to buy smokes, you tell the counter staff what you want, they get it ready for you, you pay for it and walk out.

When you employ say a decorator, you book em, get a quote etc. They come do the work, you pay em.

That seems to be the usuall order of things in commerce to me.

There is the whole grey area of Travis's relationship with the tech, but I'd argue that as my main point. The exploitation of Travis's trust.
Ok the whole 5 year thing is a sticking point and doesnt look good for Travis. But should it really matter?

 

[Bunnest]

i THINK YOUR ALL MISSING THE POINT, THE TIME FRAME IS A red herring...HE PAID FOR SERVICES AND PARTS HE DIDN'T RECIEVE...I don't care if it took a thousand years...well, maybe not quite that long...

 

[travisbickle777]

I have sought many opinions legal and technical, and quite a few of the one's that I have culled and put great value on have come from this forum either by post or PM. I have acted as judiciously as possible in gathering the necessary documentation, tech affidavits, eyewitnesses to the initial entrance into the shop, plus all receipts including deposits and previous tickets going back 12 years. At this point in time, I am waiting on the evaluation from Mercury Magnetics of the TX in question. After that, I will report to the forum thread exactly what the findings are.
Please take into consideration I am an older dude (60), and I still have (had?) that 60's or 70's outlook that you should build trusting friendships whenever possible. The amp is more of a reminder of all the great times I had playing out in the 70's and 80's, as I bought it second hand in 1975, and I was using it solely for studio use after those decades. I really believed the horseshit this guy was giving me over the phone. Every time I called up, some new calamity would strike the amp or the tech. Finally, I got sick of listening to him, and when I went to pick it up (almost 3 hours away), I was just happy to get out of there, and I did not want to get into any long ass rap with him, because if you know this guy, (and I am sure there are guys out there that do!) you will blow 2-3 hours just trying to leave his shop.
Thanks again to all who have posted and PM'd me, and stay tuned......................

 

[ironlung40]

Here's my defense if I'm the tech:

"Well, travisbickle777 dropped his amp off with me all the way back in 2005, so I'm quite familiar with this customer of mine. The problem with Mr. travisbickle777, is that upon the time he delivered the amp to me to work on, he did not have the money to pay for the work ... in fact, Mr. travisbickle777 didn't wind up paying me for the parts until 4 years later. Since he was a long standing customer before this (and always expressed how pleased he was with my work), I was gracious enough to house his amp in storage, for free, until the time in which he was able to pay me for the parts ... which, as I stated, was not until 4 years AFTER he dropped off the amp.

In the past year, Mr. travisbickle777 expressed his apologies in the 4 year delay, and also expressed that due to the inconvenience he placed on me, that I was under no obligation whatsoever to get his amp to him by a specific date ... that essentially, I could place it lower on the priority list as to not have to interfere with my other current business.

Upon picking the amp up ... and I should point out that at this point it had been over 5 years ... I urged Mr. travisbickle777 to plug into his amp while at my shop since it'd been a very long separation, and I wanted to see how pleased he would be with my work, since I've always enjoyed seeing how pleased he's been in the past ... unfortunately, he declined, and took the amp without playing it here ... as he himself has already pointed out and admitted to. I found this to be a little strange, but seeing as how he was a long standing customer who has always been pleased with my work, I didn't push the issue.

Over a period of many years, Mr. travisbickle777 and I have had a very warm, gracious, and enjoyable working relationship. He has never once demonstrated any sort of behavior like this in the past, nor did I ever anticipate it ... which is why I agreed to take his amp in, for free, and store it in my storage for 4 years, for free, until we were finally able to get to work on his amp.

I'm terribly sorrowful for Mr. travisbickle777, as it appears he is in some sort of situation in which it is forcing him to act out of character. About all I can say, aside from laying out the truth of the story, is that I went above and beyond in trying to help what I considered a very dear customer, and when he last left my shop, he was very pleased and excited to get home. What happened to the amp after leaving my shop, or what has happened in Mr. travisbickle777's personal life, is not something I can speak to. Only Mr. travisbickle777 knows the answer to this ... and while I am aware it may expose holes in his personal life, I'm hoping he'll shed some additional light on why we are really sitting here.

To Mr. travisbickle777, directly, while I'm disappointed in your creation of this situation, I do thank you for your years of loyal service ... I'm sorry for whatever is going on in your life which has created this new demeanor, and I want to wish you the very best in getting things straightened out in your personal life"

That's it. I'd turn it around on you, your shady behavior for the past 5 years, and then insinuate that you have very serious personal issues that have driven you to the point of trying to defraud people ... marital problems? financial problems? employment problems? drug use? whatever ... the focus would be on you. No, it's not fair, but that's the brutal truth you might face.

Oh, and I'd be sure to sue you for court costs, defamation, and whatever other baloney I could squeeze in there to bleed you dry ... or at least cause you a lot more pain financially and mentally.

Point being? This is legal defense 101 ... take this as a lesson learned and move on.

+1.......this is my point in much greater detail. The tech can be guilty as OJ, but that don't necessarily mean much. The owner messed up by not demanding better service 4 or 5 years ago. You should never let anyone keep anything that long.

Of course it's a lie. However, if you are guilty, your only chance for getting off the hook is creating doubt, and turning the case against the prosecution ... unfortunately that means having to exploit the weaknesses in not only the case itself, but hopefully the personal life of the accuser.

There are a lot of holes in this story:

Why did he wait 5 years for the amp?

Why was he patient for 5 years (again, 5 years?!?), and then suddenly flip out and call the police? Was this not a phone call that should have taken place long before? Especially if you're concerned you might be getting ripped off?

If you suspected something was wrong, and felt you were getting the run around for years, why did you continue leaving the amp there?

If you suspected something was wrong, and felt you were getting the run around for years, why would you hand over $800 in cash to someone you don't trust? Why did this payment happen 4 years after the fact ... and after you had already said you expressed doubt in the operation?

What does a $100 deposit have to do with anything? As pointed out, he didn't wind up paying for the parts for an additional 4 years (again, 4 years?1?).

Why did he decline to play the amp before leaving the shop? I mean, if you've been skeptical of someone for 5 years, wouldn't you take 5 minutes to make sure you're not being screwed?


See, this is only a couple of minutes of coming up with very elementary questions that I'd direct at the prosecution .... and you can rest assured that they would absolutely create doubt in the mind of a jury. Nobody leaves something of value with someone they don't trust for 5 years. Nobody. And you certainly don't double down on it with $800 4 years into the nightmare.

I'm giving travisbickle77 the benefit of doubt in trusting his story ... and I think there is a bias on the forum to stick together and protect each other in cases like this ... but to some little old lady on a jury who has no clue what a Marshall amp is, she's going to be focused on the credibility of the story.

Sorry, but it's easy to attack the credibility of the story.

and another +1

NO NO NO! There is no justifying what the tech did and it's not the owners fault that the guy NEVER fixed his amp, moved, gave him the run around, lied, ripped him off, etc.

Like the OP said, he had "life" situations that made the amp not important for a while.

He was taken advantage of and I would try to sue the hell out of him.

RU yelling at me? anyway, it doesn't matter how wrong the tech is. The owner paid and left the store with the amp. If it was so blatantly wrong he should have refused to pay the amount owed, and demanded the tech make it right then. Again, the owner let this spiral out of control, by waiting so long and letting the tech give him the runaround. By the time he picked it up he lost control of the situation.

Dunno how the law stands in the states, but here in the UK you pay for something it belongs to you.
You spent $800 on a output transformer, you want a $800 dollar power transformer. Your owed one and you have a legal right to one. The guy cant charge you any markup, just add the cost of delivery. His earnings come from his labours, i.e diagnosing the fault and fitting the thing.

Bank statements (the withdrawl/bank transfer transaction) stands as evidence of the sum you paid, along with his receipt/invoice and corresponding dates. Plan your attack carefully mate. You can trounce a business in a small claims court, if they operate like ours and you can't take formal legal representation. Just don't play all your cards from the start, or give the goon any forewarning.

If I were the judge, you'd get everything the scumbag owned, including his missus, kids and fetid underwear.

As far as not being able to mark up prices on replacement parts? You most certainly can mark them up. This is business. When a contractor builds a house for someone, I guarantee that he marks up any item he puts in the house, from sheet rock, to a door knob. Most mark things up at least 15%. You cannot make enough money to sustain the overhead of a company and make profit if you don't. There is a value on going through the trouble of ordering and handling parts for someone. Now with that being said, I'm sure there is a point to where you know you're being swindled. I.e. A $200 transformer shouldn't be marked up to $500, or whatever arbitrary number you want to use. But, as a customer it is your responsibility to ask these questions up front, before you agree to allow the tech to order these parts for you and perform the work. If you just give him a green light, then you are responsible to pay.


I hope the OP can win in the end, but if he goes to court he may be out more money than he is now. It truly is a crapshoot.

 

[lil_vamp]

i live with my amps i fix them my self i couldnt leave them any where over nite i dont even like other people touching them

 

[stax]

Some of you watch too much CSI Miami! LOL!! There are no little old ladies on juries in small claims court and they don't listen to long winded stories.

The OP has the burden of proof (which is all that is needed in small claims), the law requires work to be done in a reasonable amount of time (in a written contract a finish date can be entered). As long as the OP has all of the reciepts and something from another tech stating the problems, this is a pretty open and shut case.

 

[Micky]

My dad always said 'you can't get blood from a rock'...

 

[nikininja]

As far as not being able to mark up prices on replacement parts? You most certainly can mark them up. This is business. When a contractor builds a house for someone, I guarantee that he marks up any item he puts in the house, from sheet rock, to a door knob. Most mark things up at least 15%. You cannot make enough money to sustain the overhead of a company and make profit if you don't. There is a value on going through the trouble of ordering and handling parts for someone. Now with that being said, I'm sure there is a point to where you know you're being swindled. I.e. A $200 transformer shouldn't be marked up to $500, or whatever arbitrary number you want to use. But, as a customer it is your responsibility to ask these questions up front, before you agree to allow the tech to order these parts for you and perform the work. If you just give him a green light, then you are responsible to pay.


I hope the OP can win in the end, but if he goes to court he may be out more money than he is now. It truly is a crapshoot.

Yeah thinking about it, you are correct. But I'd believe theres a case in the markup on the transformer. $800 is ludicrous, £70/$125 for the output tran. $75 for the mains tran is nearer the mark.

Travis I too think like you. I like to develop working relationships on trust. Feel for ya mate, hope all turns out in your favour.