What Should I Do? Need Help From The Hive Mind

[PelliX]

I see this decibel topic being a focal point often when comparing watts but what gets lost is the bigness or broadening of the sound field generated by bigger iron.

Agree. We all know there's a lot of nuance that's generally omitted. SPL, for example - which is arguably more interesting that the dB count - which is meaningless without additional information.

My ears hear it. Usually as a bigger bottom. More girth(that's what she said). 100 watter having more girth than a 50 watter. It doesn't have to be at volume to notice either.

Absolutely. I'd say it's a logarithmic curve though; 1W vs 20W = huge difference, 20W vs 50W = pronounced difference, 50W vs 100W = noticeable, but the curve is flattening out at that point...

Now a person has to decide for themselves how much much heft(not loudness)they want.

Do you mean oomph, aka 'wamp'?

(yes, I'm going to be quoting that shit for years to come...)

Seriously though I'd be stoked with a 50 watter too. I'd settle.

Nothing wrong with a good thunder lizard noisy iguana!

 

[solarburn]

Agree. We all know there's a lot of nuance that's generally omitted. SPL, for example - which is arguably more interesting that the dB count - which is meaningless without additional information.



Absolutely. I'd say it's a logarithmic curve though; 1W vs 20W = huge difference, 20W vs 50W = pronounced difference, 50W vs 100W = noticeable, but the curve is flattening out at that point...



Do you mean oomph, aka 'wamp'?

(yes, I'm going to be quoting that shit for years to come...)



Nothing wrong with a good thunder lizard noisy iguana!

Definitely the "Wamp"! Ooooooomph!

 

[solarburn]

Another quick note on all this loudness vs bigness stuff. I noticed none of it while phone recording my SC800 and Iconic 5150(80 watter)today. Through same 212 cab.

Getting volume as equal as humanly possibel(by ear)as I could? Bigness and decibals sounded pretty darn close on recording. Tone obviously different. However in the room live? Yah, noticeable for sure. The 20 watter sounds like a toy(that I really enjoy).

 

[PelliX]

Getting volume as equal as humanly possibel(by ear)as I could? Bigness and decibals sounded pretty darn close on recording. Tone obviously different. However in the room live? Yah, noticeable for sure. The 20 watter sounds like a toy(that I really enjoy).

Bingo. I record a *lot* using my SC and it sounds huge (if done right). Mic'ed, no DI stuff, not even using an attenuator or rattling the windows. I've literally heard things from people like "wow, that sounds like it was LOUD in the room!" when in fact it was recorded at conversation levels, give or take. Maybe a rowdy conversation after a few brewskies. The JTM makes it sound small in the room using the same cab, but without some seriously strategically placed ribbon mics in the room I don't think one would notice post-rec. We're talking about 'guitar centric' music here, too - not the odd faint riff in the background.

 

[Kuga]

@V-man outlined that any 100W amp can be a 50W amp, and honestly we're talking about a few dB difference.

I don't think so. It's not recomendable on some amps. If you pull out 2 power valves on the VM2466 some components have over voltage acording Steve D. You can try It but in a long run you can burn out some components. Marshall don't say you can do it in his owner manuals. I don't do It in any amp.

 

[anitoli]

I don't think so. It's not recomendable on some amps. If you pull out 2 power valves on the VM2466 some components have over voltage acording Steve D. You can try It but in a long run you can burn out some components. Marshall don't say you can do it in his owner manuals. I don't do It in any amp.

Marshall owners manuals don't say shit about anything........lol.

 

[PelliX]

Marshall don't say you can do it in his owner manuals.

The same manuals that include the rubbish about standby switches. The same manuals that can't even get the power on sequence right (my DSL). The same manuals that tell me swapping an ECC83 for an ECC82 will damage my amp. The same manuals that actually state the amp has a FOOTSWITCH (my JTM45). Meh.

I don't think so. It's not recomendable on some amps. If you pull out 2 power valves on the VM2466 some components have over voltage acording Steve D.

Depending on design you may want to drop the voltage a little. I'm not sure about the Vintage Modern, don't know much about it, to be honest. I might have a look at a schematic. The 1959 should deal with this just fine.

 

[Kuga]

The same manuals that include the rubbish about standby switches. The same manuals that can't even get the power on sequence right (my DSL). The same manuals that tell me swapping an ECC83 for an ECC82 will damage my amp. The same manuals that actually state the amp has a FOOTSWITCH (my JTM45). Meh.



Depending on design you may want to drop the voltage a little. I'm not sure about the Vintage Modern, don't know much about it, to be honest. I might have a look at a schematic. The 1959 should deal with this just fine.

You are right. Owner manuals from Marshall are not great. Even Marshall web in Spanish it's really fun. The translation it's wors than my English level. Lol.

I know in some amps it's safety pull out two tubes but It's just 3 dB difference. Actually I prefer the 1987X than the 1959SLP because FX loop on the 1987X. I will love have both. But I love multichanell amps like the TSL100, LM6100 and JVM410HJS I own. I need all valve power of them.

 

[PelliX]

Actually I prefer the 1987X than the 1959SLP because FX loop on the 1987X.

I guess that makes sense, sure.

Owner manuals from Marshall are not great.

Next thing you know, it'll have a reverb tank and an FX loop...

 

[donwagar]

Life is short, buy the amp you want. If it doesn't work out, sell it and move on. Fingers crossed it's exactly what you want.

 

[colchar]

The same manuals that include the rubbish about standby switches. The same manuals that can't even get the power on sequence right (my DSL). The same manuals that tell me swapping an ECC83 for an ECC82 will damage my amp. The same manuals that actually state the amp has a FOOTSWITCH (my JTM45). Meh.



Depending on design you may want to drop the voltage a little. I'm not sure about the Vintage Modern, don't know much about it, to be honest. I might have a look at a schematic. The 1959 should deal with this just fine.

Hasn't it been common to do that do a 1959 for a long time now?

Hell, Hiwatt builds their amps using the same chasis for 50 and 100 watt versions. The only difference is the number of tubes. If it is fine for them, and has been done to the 1959 for years, I personally don't see the problem.

That being said, I am far from technical so could be off base.

 

[PelliX]

Hell, Hiwatt builds their amps using the same chasis for 50 and 100 watt versions. The only difference is the number of tubes. If it is fine for them, and has been done to the 1959 for years, I personally don't see the problem.

It's very simple, really; the limitation here is simply the voltage drop (or lack thereof, rather). As almost no valve guitar amp has a regulated power supply, but rather just a transformer and a rectifier the voltage will depend on the load presented. Less load, higher voltage. I'm not sure what the plate voltage/HT is a 1959X, but if it doesn't exceed what the caps and valves can handle, you're "OK". We all know some caps and valves cave earlier than others, so it's best to remain within the range of the datasheet. If you find the HT too high (let's say you measure 525V where the caps are rated 500V as a simple example), you know you need to add (or increase the value of) a dropping resistor. This is typically very easy to do on just about any amp.

This is of course also the reason your voltages will measure higher without valves inserted or why any unregulated power supply will measure higher without the intended load attached. Apart from Blackstar I can't think of any valve guitar amp that uses a regulated supply.

EDIT for clarity: Valve amps with digital circuitry like the VM, DSL, JVM and so on have regulation for that section because low voltage digital circuits are a lot more sensitive. Typically in Marshall's this is done with a Zener diode and some smoothing. A pretty 'spartan' approach when you compare it to modern FX units, modelers and such where there is a real self-regulating SMPS, aka chopper power supply.

 

[C-4]

My experience has been to use the amp which is applicable for the job. While I have always preferred heads and separate cabs over combo amps, sometimes a combo is just going to be better. That is going to be a matter of opinion and personal taste.

I also prefer higher wattage amps for the sound, but playing in clubs or other situations where volume is a significant factor, I have come to realize that the overall mix and room volume outweigh my personal preferences for how loud I want to play.

You might consider this as part of your options when choosing one of more amps. Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[SquidVicious]

I am trying to decide whether to buy a new amp or to stick with what I have, and figure I should consult the hive mind here.

I currently own an Orange Dual Terror that is used with a Traynor 2x12 with Greenbacks. In my living room, where I spend the majority of my time, I have an Orange AD30 and a Marshall SV20 (had one, traded it for an SC20, and recently traded back to an SV20), both running through the same model of Traynor cab.

The recent discussions around here regarding buying Marshalls in the UK or Europe, where they are stupid cheap, and bringing them over to North America got me to thinking about that again. While the voltages are different there are two Marshalls, the 1959HW and the 1987X, that have a voltage switch on the back and will only require that the fuse be changed.

I have checked both those amps with a retailer in the UK/Europe and the prices look good, although there is some slight variation depending on whether they are listed in Euros, Pounds Sterling, or US dollars (Canadian dollars are not an option).

Here in Canada the 1959HW costs $5099 before taxes. From that EU/UK retailer they can be had for the following (prices in brackets are in Canadian dollars):
€2199 ($3215)
£1745 ($2940)
$1799 ($2392)

Here the 1987X costs $3799 before taxes. From that EU/UK retailer they can be had for the following (prices in brackets are in Canadian dollars):
€1449 ($2117)
£1268 ($2136)
$1299 ($1727)



So as you can see, there are some pretty significant savings to be had even if I get dinged for duties and taxes when having them shipped here (I should have ordered for delivery during the Christmas rush in the hope that it would slip through!).

But here is my dilemma, I only play at home so am wondering if it is worth going this route and upgrading to a 1959HW or a 1987X. What do others here think; am I better off just sticking with the SV20 or am I better off upgrading? I am usually of the opinion that bigger amps sound better at lower volumes than smaller amps do, so am leaning towards the upgrade. Not having played a 1959HW or a 1987X though, I cannot gauge how much I would be gaining by going to one of those bigger amps. I think the 1959HW is overkill, and being more expensive is a tad impractical as I am hoping to snag another guitar or two soon (not that I need any more, but I don't have to explain GAS to anyone here). So based on that, I am leaning towards the 1987X. Plus, I've always liked 50-watters (if they're good enough for Duane Allman they are more than good enough for a hack like me).

I know that all of the amps I am talking about are moronically loud (even the SV20), but I own a Jet City Jettenuator that I like and plan to either buy a Marshall PowerBrake (assuming I can find one for a price that isn't idiotic) or have someone build me a JohnH attenuator. I don't need anything other than the Jettenuator, but figure I might as well have a second option for attenuation.

If I upgrade I will sell the SV20 and easily get my money back because I originally bought the first SV20 used for $1299 ($978US). That will help defray some of the cost of the new amp. Or maybe I can keep the SV20, and use it to replace my Orange Dual Terror which I can then sell. I will get less for that amp, but selling it would leave me with two Plexis and the AD30. Speaking of which, my AD30 is not going anywhere, not ever.

So what would you all do - stick with what I have or upgrade to a 1987x (likely) or 1959HW (less likely)?

I think I'd go w the 1987x. I'd be super tempted to keep the SV20 too unless the Terror fills a tonal niche to your ear.

 

[colchar]

My experience has been to use the amp which is applicable for the job. While I have always preferred heads and separate cabs over combo amps, sometimes a combo is just going to be better. That is going to be a matter of opinion and personal taste.

I also prefer higher wattage amps for the sound, but playing in clubs or other situations where volume is a significant factor, I have come to realize that the overall mix and room volume outweigh my personal preferences for how loud I want to play.

You might consider this as part of your options when choosing one of more amps. Good luck and happy hunting.

I only play at home, so none of that matters.

And this has all become a moot point because I stumbled into another amp. Check this thread:

It Followed Me Home, Can I Keep It?

I snagged this today. Turns out that it used to belong to a friend of mine, and he had traded it in. Looks like my SV20 is up for sale, and I can forget about ordering the 1987X I was planning to get.

www.marshallforum.com