Yeah! WHAT HE SAID!!!

[trax1139]

I'm not a pro in any alternate reality but I have ears that have been trained by the greatest rock and other musicians the world has ever known. I like big sounding music of all genres. I don't understand the low volume performance wave. I go to a show to be immersed in tone, be inspired to play better and maybe borrow some ideas. I want to see gear and experience a masterful crew in the groove. I want to be sonically enveloped.

I don't go to talk to my friends - except between songs/sets, text or perform social media masturbation. Nobody tries to talk at the symphony or an organ recital. Nobody tells them to 'turn down' save the score for dynamics.

Russ

I’ll just say this and then shut up. The overwhelming majority of cover bands playing today in local bars don’t have a clue how to perform. They sound bad, don’t have a pre-arranged set, and in a lot of cases just throw something together with a few really talented musicians to get through the night. At least that’s what they’re doing around here now days. Then they complain they don’t get paid enough! A lot of these guys are so good, they never practice together, but they manage. It shows! Things are a little sloppy at times (between songs, etc,) the players have a music stand in front of them. God! I hate that!
They have no real equipment to make a big sound. They show up with this pissy digital crap that makes no sound.On and on and on...Sorry!

 

[XTRXTR]

I like the garage band sound, simple pa for vocals, small mixer for the drums...

most of those type really work it hard. they are not over produced, the guitar has to play with little to no effects. its raw but if they have talent it's great.

think of montrose, mountain, zz top, bad co, etc. all great even without a sound system.

yeah the times have changed. I don't want to face it.

my three stacks have to be heard!! or what is the point.

 

[trax1139]

Here’s what we gig with...no matter how big or small the room. A couple of JBL SRX 815’s for the vocals and a couple of mics on the drums...that’s it.

 

[Sg-ocaster]

Ive been on both sides of this story.
If the guy just bought the system he may be learning it and working the bugs out.....BUT he should tell you upfront it is a new system to him and he is still learning it.
I was the steady soundman for this band for approx 7yrs and when a couple new members asked me to do sound for there other band also on my system I did. First gig monitors kept going out, over and over I tried everything. Thought I had it then they would go out again. At the end of the night one of the guys confronted me all pissed off that I was doing it deliberate cause I wasnt trying make them sound as good as the other band I worked for yadda yadda yadda........well two days later in testing I found it......a cold solder joint in the power supply section of the monitor amp. I was asked to do another job I reluctantly worked for them again and explained and got an appology. I still to this day get occasional calls to work for them.
On stage playing guitar Ive had terrible monitors, times when I know FOH is horrid. Soundmen with "I know everything" tudes....guys that think guitar leads should be buried. Best thing is to buck up and play through it and remember not to rehire them. Throwing a tantrum onstage doesnt fix the problems...just leaves the audiance with a bad impression of the band. I remember seeing Joan Jett 20yrs ago she had a fit about her monitors.....Ya know.....to this day thats the only part I remember of that concert. Average audiance people dont know there is a problem till you fling a mic and dime your amp out of anger.

 

[dro]

[QUOTE="trax1139, post: 2163087, member: 2

dude...”turn that shit down-the game’s on!”

“Man, I gotta just let the DJ have the whole night”.

1. He”ll be crankin at 113-115db all night long and no one says a word. Why? BECAUSE IT SOUNDS GOOD!! That’s why! I’ve proved it to myself and many others time and time and time again. Watch this: when they gripe it’s a little too loud, I just say OK, I’ll work on it a little. Then release the elephants. Turn it up to the sweet spot, compression and limiting (depending on material of course) get way over the stage volume and the guitar players little rig, and the band responds and so will the folks.
2. If there’s no big PA, that’s when you need the big rig Marshall’s and Fender Pro or Ampeg SVTs. Even in a small club. You can do the same thing with that. A tight band that sounds big, fat, powerful and dynamic will always demand attention and fair better than a squeaker trying to just keep from getting yelled at.

[/QUOTE]

I could not agree with you more trax. Wanna find out, how much better as CD sounds than Your band?
Book a gig where a DJ and you alternate sets.
Ever been to a concert an hour before the show?
They've got the baddest stereo system one could ask for.
Ever wonder why the lead in music is tuned to sound like shit?
That's right, To make the band sound better.
For you to compete with studio recorded music, You'd have to carry a sound system the likes of the Eagles or Paul McCartney.

A bit of unsolicited advice from an old fart who's been there before sound systems worked their way into clubs and private parties.
Play with less. But play better.
Don't underestimate the benefit of practice.
If you want to practice but you cant get the rest of the band to show up.
It may be hard to hear, but you need a different band.
Use a sub. 1 sub.... But put it where it will do the most good.
Right next to your drummer. He'll get off on it. Making him get into it more.
Unfortunately it won't help his timing. If your drummer sings. His vocal mic will help with the top of his kit. Bonham was recorded with a kick and two overheads.
No need to mic a guitar amp at a bar. If your amp can't be heard over the patrons, the pool table, or the TV. Think abought another amp.

And speaking of a new amp. If you're just inside bars or indoor parties. the new Studio series Marshalls would be perfect. And they have volume knobs. to attenuate them. No need to buy extra shit to turn it down.
If you are buying your pedals on the cheap. Chances are your buying cheap shit.
And it shows in your tone.

Put vocals and acoustics only in the PA. And, LEARN HOW TO SING.
Learn harmonies, set aside one night a week for harmony practice.
Learn how to NOT to sing someone else's note.
P.S. Some people can't carry a tune...If this is you. DON"T SING.

The bigger the band, the less the bass player needs to solo.
That said, if it's a three piece, He better know some licks. Cause when the guitarist goes for a lead. If the bass player is still playing whole notes. Your song is gonna take a big shit.

No how to leave space. And get on time. Leave space for other instruments. Don't play over the top of one another.
Take a que from Pink Floyd. Silence can be your friend. And it will make people take notice. When a band is tight. Everyone is playing and NOT playing at the same time.

Monitors? I'm old school all the way. 15" wedges. I know the in ears. But
I'm no fool no-sir-eee I'm gonna live to be 63.
Never put anything smaller than your elbow in your ear.

It may take a bit to figure it out. Using less tech for some of you I know is unheard of.
We may have different styles. But I'll put my tone against anybody's. And come out shining like a new penny.

Less is best.

 

[dro]

View attachment 92608 Here’s what we gig with...no matter how big or small the room. A couple of JBL SRX 815’s for the vocals and a couple of mics on the drums...that’s it.

Yeah, been there done that. I count 8 mic's on the drums. I suspect there's more.
Don't see a need to aim that full stack right at the drummer though.
Speaking of the full stack. You playing stadiums? And a mic on the stack as well?

 

[trax1139]

Yeah, been there done that. I count 8 mic's on the drums. I suspect there's more.
Don't see a need to aim that full stack right at the drummer though.
Speaking of the full stack. You playing stadiums? And a mic on the stack as well?

 

[trax1139]

Rig

Everything was mic’d up for a recording. Live, I just use 2 overheads and a kick mic on the drums.
I’ll never understand the “stadium” comments.
As far as setting up close to the drummer...only makes 100% common sense to me.
I see bands these days spread out across as much space as wherever they’re at will allow. Especially outdoor gigs! Dumbest thing you can do IMO. You don’t see the singers in a vocal choir standing 10’ apart for a reason.

 

[dro]

No I get it. But if both 4x12's are plugged in. Just seems a bit overkill for that small room.
Half stack as always been plenty for me. Even outside.
My drummer plays loud. One of the loudest I've ever heard. My half stack always angled a bit towards. But not aimed straight at him. That would put your guitar in the overheads.

 

[end user]

I’ll just say this and then shut up. The overwhelming majority of cover bands playing today in local bars don’t have a clue how to perform. They sound bad, don’t have a pre-arranged set, and in a lot of cases just throw something together with a few really talented musicians to get through the night. At least that’s what they’re doing around here now days. Then they complain they don’t get paid enough! A lot of these guys are so good, they never practice together, but they manage. It shows! Things are a little sloppy at times (between songs, etc,) the players have a music stand in front of them. God! I hate that!
They have no real equipment to make a big sound. They show up with this pissy digital crap that makes no sound.On and on and on...Sorry!

The "digital crap" isn't to blame for most of it. In the right hands and with the right ears it can sound supremely good and powerful. When I first switched over my sound system from a gigantic analog rig to powered everything and a digital board, I went through a short phase where I certainly had issues making bands sound as good as they could be. The problem mostly is people using digital stuff and trying to use the same concepts they used with analog stuff. They are very different animals and need to be treated as such.

Lucky for me I have a friend who was a Chief Sound Engineer for world famous pro touring bands for over 25 years and he gave me so many tips and advice on how to use the stuff. Things even the manufacturers don't tell you in the manuals or youtube videos. All the concerts we have been attending for over 20 years now have all been processed digitally before it hits your ears. Bands that still use full stacks and cranking amps are being mic'd and processed digitally. So I hate to break it to you but anyone who goes to concerts have been enjoying "digital crap" for a long long time now.

When you break it down to smaller venues is when it gets super important that you actually understand digital equipment and how to use it. I'd bet 90+ percent of local bands think they can just set it and forget it and that's where the bad sound comes from. A sound person who can hear what needs to be done in a specific room or venue and adjusts accordingly will make an ok band sound great and a good band sound phenomenal. Of course there are other things that can cause problems. Micing gear that sounds bad to begin with will sound bad no matter what the sound engineer does. Most local bar and club venues all have bad acoustics because they weren't built with bands in mind.

Sound reinforcement isn't brain surgery but the world would be a better place if the people running sound fully understood how to use their equipment and took some time to understand at least some basic concepts of sound. Digital or analog doesn't make a lot of difference if the operator knows what to do.

 

[trax1139]

Absolutely, everything’s digital... has been for a long time. No one knows the difference. I just don’t like it. It’s amazing how most have abandoned analog equipment, not even knowing why, other than it’s what everyone else is doing. Man, you can score top notch, pristine Soundcraft, Midas and Allen & Heath 32 channel analog mixers in a road case from a church for $250.00. Digital mixers do eliminate a wall of processing equipment though. Just fish around in the dark through files and data banks to get to the gate on the #1 floor tom in a hurry. One thing that’s always made me chuckle is how there are so many digital music products out there trying to mimic an analog sound. Btw everything ends up as analog when it hits the speakers anyway.

 

[Lo-Tek]

Here. Watch this. When you're done, check and see if you actually like Rock n Roll:

Just Got Paid is great. Imo the original is much better.
I still find him a bit boring. Even the crowd seemed sedate.
I think his appeal is largely to older folks’ nostalgic remembrances. ymmv

 

[Sg-ocaster]

Absolutely, everything’s digital... has been for a long time. No one knows the difference. I just don’t like it. It’s amazing how most have abandoned analog equipment, not even knowing why, other than it’s what everyone else is doing. Man, you can score top notch, pristine Soundcraft, Midas and Allen & Heath 32 channel analog mixers in a road case from a church for $250.00. Digital mixers do eliminate a wall of processing equipment though. Just fish around in the dark through files and data banks to get to the gate on the #1 floor tom in a hurry. One thing that’s always made me chuckle is how there are so many digital music products out there trying to mimic an analog sound. Btw everything ends up as analog when it hits the speakers anyway.

Tell me about it. I have racks of Ashly EQs Klark Tec comp/gates and Dbx stuff Crown amps(just picked up some older Crest 7001s) and bar sized EAW speaker setups.....I had one band I played for the drummer ask my sound guy....cant we just get Mackie powered stuff(meaning plastic SRM450s) so we dont have to carry amps?? OK....if you buy it is my response. Lotsa money to take a step backwards but OK. Nothing against Mackie there higher end stuff is nice for local bands.

 

[end user]

Tell me about it. I have racks of Ashly EQs Klark Tec comp/gates and Dbx stuff Crown amps(just picked up some older Crest 7001s) and bar sized EAW speaker setups.....I had one band I played for the drummer ask my sound guy....cant we just get Mackie powered stuff(meaning plastic SRM450s) so we dont have to carry amps?? OK....if you buy it is my response. Lotsa money to take a step backwards but OK. Nothing against Mackie there higher end stuff is nice for local bands.

Yeah I am still on my first set of powered speakers for FOH when I left the old stuff behind. I used to have a rack of gear that weighed at least 300 lbs. I shopped around a lot and wound up with all EV ELX series stuff. No plastic there and I think it's the reason they sounded warmer and punchier than the others I auditioned.

I tried QSC first of course and found them to be very clear and articulate but sterile at the same time. Went to Yamaha after that and liked them a lot but kept shopping. Then tried the EV's and fell in love instantly. No fancy DSP options on them or anything just a eq switch for flat or high/lo boost. I have done so many shows with my EV powered stuff and pushed them hard night after night and other than a couple of them losing the logo light they continue to sound great and give me no issues. The combination of the 12" tops and 18" powered subs sound outstanding and punch really hard when needed. I have done some fairly big local rooms with those. I use a Soundcraft ui24R as my mixer. Studer pre-amps and every possible effect and eq option you could ever need.

I do have 4 ZLX 15" (plastic) wedges that I use for stage monitoring and have never had a single complaint about them from anyone. When I upgrade I plan to stick with EV but will shop around again for sure.

 

[Derrick111]

I have been gigging(working professionally) for 30+years and running sound for 20. If you aren't doing big outdoor events, are a National touring act, or opening for one in a big venue then you will be expected to keep the volumes down per the venue owners requests. Some places let you crank up but those are rarer than hens teeth now.

For the typical weekend warrior gigs, it's a fact of life I have struggled with but have accepted. The choices are below..

Play loud and get told by staff to turn down
Get told to turn down between every song until you actually do
Don't turn down and get shut down and/or never invited back
Have a sound person who can make you sound good at around 90-92db (most venues sweet spot)
Don't play places that require you to turn down (good luck finding one if you are a weekend warrior band)
Learn how to sound good and have fun at lower volumes
Quit doing it because you feel you absolutely must turn way up to sound good.

Trust me I don't like it either, but it's just how it is now in most places now. I have played and/or run sound all over the USA and it's the same in most places. We have been reduced to background music.

The good news is typically if you are a good band and can draw a crowd and a dance floor you can turn up after the 2nd set. That 3rd set is when the magic happens usually. Music is crankin, drunk people acting like drunk people and having a good time and the band rippin it up!

Oh the times they are..err umm have changed.

I know it's slightly OT but every time I read sound person related posts I am reminded of this fact of life.

We seem to be about the same age with similar experience, but with all due respect to your personal experiences, I don't have a hard time at all playing places that allow us to crank our amps and neither do my peers. I don't mention this to argue, I mention because claiming that this is the way things are now does not seem very accurate. I'm curious where are you located? Here is a photo at a modest club in Washington DC a bit before the pandemic... it's an over the top example, but telling none the less:

 

[tallcoolone]

Love kicking up a 6mos old thread to post a pic of yourself haha!

 

[Derrick111]

It was in my feed so I read it and replied. Maybe next, I will put a picture of myself in my avatar like yours though ;-)

 

[DaDoc]

Ah, also: this is a very good reason for getting YOUR own soundguy with whom you work towards achieving the best band sound and for everyone to be happy. If you're halfway serious about it, don't depend on an unknown quantity.

Yup, having your own soundman as a band member is the best way to go!

 

[mickeydg5]

I usually don't speak about other guitarists but I do believe Joe is on the money with this opinion piece.
https://guitar.com/features/opinion-analysis/joe-bonamassa-playing-loud/

I've been playing guitar since 1977, gigs since '79 and I've had many clashes with sound re-enforcement engineers over the years. Most recently the guy had a really great sound system for the amphitheater grassy knoll we were playing. Went through sound check everything was fine, the whole band did a song after the usual check check, test, testing, testy two...testies, Check Please! etc. right.

Then comes time we are on a few hours later and the guy keeps cutting the monitor on me, then the singer, the bass, then the drummer, me again. He's using the mute/solo buttons on his board right? Trying to chase down something he thinks 'jus ain't right' ...and you know what, that just ain't right! So I motion to him that the monitor is cutting out.

Between songs I find everyone is getting the same treatment. What?! Next song - This time he is cutting me out during my solo...WTF!!! From my perspective I'm going from great sound to hardly anything during a solo when I'm trying to get something brilliant going. I can't find the spot on the stage that gives me the tone I need, that I need consistently. Especially during a solo I should have full rights to my stage sound. After the song I'm a bit fed up already. I have never in my entire stage career had this happen.

Just in case it was a tech problem I state directly into the mic that we're having some technical issues with monitors. The guy says through a mic he has to the stage that he was chasing down a little problem. So I'm cool now I give him the head nod and thumbs up no problem...thanks.

He does it again...and not just to me. This guy is a poser. He bought a nice rig and he is using us as...a test subject during our performance. That's it for this guy in my head, "No More Fucks Given!" Hey I've been around y'know and I don't suffer fools well.

So I walk over to my amp stacks and throw off the mics there, well I moved the boom out of the way, I should have just kicked it over! I crank up my amps to ridiculous. I unhitch the monitor in front me and go.

The rest of the band is lookin at me like what just happened. I ain't puttin up with this shit-for-a-sound-man any longer. I hit a couple chords and blast into the next song on the playlist. Now everyone can hear me rightly as it should be. I'm the lead here, in a three piece. Maybe what he doesn't know is that I went to music school and you never fuck with the performers. You get the sound check and you move the lead up and down etc as the performance goes on.

The point of sound re-enforcement is to recreate the sound of the band to a level that the crowd can hear and enjoy the performance. Its not rocket science. You keep plenty of headroom in your setup at sound check so when the crowd is there you don't need to do much. Recording engineers I also know what that is and there is a big difference there is a lot of tech expertise there.

Hey if you're a great re-enforcement engineer... love ya, just don't fuck with me. You know sound re-enforcement has become a joke because of posers like the one I just described. The good ones are always solid and find trouble with a few lever movements. The next time you hear feedback in a movie scene with the singer or MC using a mic its because of the absolute dickheads that think a sound system makes them a soundman. They have been so prevalent that its an old old joke now.

The good ones use some pink and white noise to find the trouble before anything else happens. But outside there is no reflections that warrant a monitor cut unless you just don't know what you are doing.

Anyway I think Joe is on point with his editorial. I worked hard, blisters sweat tears even some blood while performing with an injury. I know my tone that I need and I'm not gonna take it from these wanna bees. You want to be a sound engineer that I respect? Go get a degree in sound engineering/re-enforcement or show me your experience without messing up a performance.

I agree with Bonamaasa.
From his words I understood he likes his system loud enough for his proper style, not too loud.

You did exactly what was needed in that situation.
So what happened after with the shit head sound guy?
And just like singing Willie, he should have been fired.

 

[mickeydg5]

Here. Watch this. When you're done, check and see if you actually like Rock n Roll:

And that verifies what I posted above.
You gotta be playing loud enough to get it.

Notice he stepped on the VOUME for solo.

Did I here him throw a TOOL riff in there?