15 Watts Just Won't Do...

[GuitarIV]

On my way home from yet another rehearsal, I replaced my current bands old guitar player and we are slowly but surely starting to jive more and more.

They live at the country side outside of my hometown and rehearse there as well so I always take the train which takes me about 45 minutes to get there. No biggie, but so far I haven't actually taken the car to bring my DSL 100 out to the rehearsal space and leave it there because I wasn't sure if me and the band are gonna work. Now that I know we do that's exactly what I'll do next.

In the meantime my most convenient solution was to bring my Laney IRT Studio 15 Watt head with me, the amp fits into a laptop sized bag and is easy to carry. The other guitar player has an ENGL Powerball MK2 at the rehearsal space going into an ENGL XXL cab with V30s, our drummer is loud and all my little IRT has at disposal is an ENGL Standard Cab with Celestion V60 speakers that have 96dbs of efficiency on tap.

Now you can imagine that the amp is struggling. I have a hard time hearing myself over the rest of the band and have to guess what I'm playing, trying to pick as delicate and precise as possible since I have to trust my hands more than my ears. The 15 watts just won't do even though the IRT is a trooper, it has done well considering the circumstances. But once you push an amp with a duett of EL84 tubes to 7 on the master volume and you play music that suffers instead of benefits from poweramp distortion you know it's time to bring out the big guns. Time for my DSL.


Basically my reason behind opening this thread is: I always read about people saying how small amps are plenty loud and can perform well in almost every situation that's not playing in a stadium, but seriously after having spent time with my Laney running at its limit I beg to differ.

I'd rather have a 100 watt head running cool on the master volume and still be able to turn up when need be. I understand the importance of headroom now, especially when you need a clean sound. And the damn iron. You might not have to turn a 100 watt head up to even 2 on the MV, but the trannies are still working and punching. The two EL84 tubes in my 15 watt Laney just sound whimpy and weak when the master is set on 7 cooking the poweramp section. And the trannies are a big part of it.

What's your experience? I have learnt so far that I need at least 30 watts of power to feel safe in a band situation, especially if the kind of music I play (hard rock and heavy metal as an example) requires preamp distortion. 50 watts should be perfect, 100 watts the safe bet.

It's not always about how loud you can turn up, it's about headroom and punch. That is the reason we still have the big amps.

Discuss!

 

[johnfv]

It largely depends on the drummer and your other band mates. It is nice to have more headroom if you need it. Most of my gigs these days are 15 - 30 watt amps. I'd rather have a 20 watt amp in the middle of it's range than a 50 watt (or 100 watt) amp at the "barely on" setting. With lower wattage EL84 amps it can be hard to get full low end, I find it best to focus on the mids. YMMV...

 

[BanditPanda]

John, you've got a great selection of fine amps there.
Curious as to which one you go to for your 15-30 watt gigs?
BP

 

[BftGibson]

dont get along with anything but 50 watters(or 100).. like the natural depth & punch.. made sure my amps have great masters so my tone is always the same without messing around from room to room..you can come down but you can not go up if it just doesn't have it.

 

[royslead]

I ran with a Mesa Express 5:25, the first 1x12 version, not the "Plus" model. It had a Vintage 30 in it, and used a pair of El84's. It was a loud amp, but lacked clean headroom that I needed for stage volume to compete with a loud drummer. If mic'd and mixed properly in a way I could actually hear myself in a monitor, it would work great. I could turn it down a bit and get some headroom back. The problem was, the sound guy and his equipment, we hired, did not have a good way to separate monitors properly to allow that; not enough channels I believe. If we had the production company we now use, I probably would not have sold that amp for a bigger one.

 

[stringbender11]

Either way I'd be wearing ear plugs in this situation for sure. I think you have the right idea about powering up, don't wanna be struggling to stay in the mix.

 

[GuitarIV]

It largely depends on the drummer and your other band mates. It is nice to have more headroom if you need it. Most of my gigs these days are 15 - 30 watt amps. I'd rather have a 20 watt amp in the middle of it's range than a 50 watt (or 100 watt) amp at the "barely on" setting. With lower wattage EL84 amps it can be hard to get full low end, I find it best to focus on the mids. YMMV...

Mids cranked, treble rolled back so I don't kill the drummer and the bassplayer with high frequencies and depth and bass controls pushed to give it a bit more body. The problem is that the music we play (mostly hard rock covers in the veins of deep purple, judas priest, guns n roses etc.) requires pre amp distortion with a fairly clean poweramp and the 15 watter just falls apart, especially competing with the Powerball and the drummer. If we were playing dirty blues it would be fine, but my clean channel also turns into crunch at the present situation...

I ran with a Mesa Express 5:25, the first 1x12 version, not the "Plus" model. It had a Vintage 30 in it, and used a pair of El84's. It was a loud amp, but lacked clean headroom that I needed for stage volume to compete with a loud drummer. If mic'd and mixed properly in a way I could actually hear myself in a monitor, it would work great. I could turn it down a bit and get some headroom back. The problem was, the sound guy and his equipment, we hired, did not have a good way to separate monitors properly to allow that; not enough channels I believe. If we had the production company we now use, I probably would not have sold that amp for a bigger one.

If we could mic the amps I'd be golden. The IRT sounds amazing in it's comfort zone which is somewhere at 3-4 on the mastervolume. Tight, full, defined and punchy. Go any higher and it crumbles. I've been considering something like the Mooer Radar IR loader pedal for live situations to take my amps signal straight to FOH.

Either way I'd be wearing ear plugs in this situation for sure. I think you have the right idea about powering up, don't wanna be struggling to stay in the mix.

I always wear earplugs which doesn't help the situation when your amp is not loud enough. At least now my DSL has a purpose again and won't be collecting any dust no more

 

[Crikey]

100watts and dont look back. Years ago downsized and on onegig sound guy sucked and the 30 watts didnt cut it. Struggled.
Get the 100 and never wonder if you have enough. Plenty of headroom and ability to scale up if needed.

 

[johnfv]

If the band and audience will tolerate the 50 or 100 watt, game on!

 

[Kinkless Tetrode]

A big part of that situation are the 96db speakers, and the other guitarist playing through v30s. But I understand where you are coming from. I always want a 50 watt or 100 watt amp in the bull pen so to speak.

 

[mickeydg5]

A nice Jubilee, half power capability and its effects loop does wonders.

 

[ricksconnected]

.

 

[anitoli]

Low watt amps are shit, always will be, always have been. What really irritates me about some of the slagging thrown out at 100 watters is that most of the amps made after the late 70's have master volumes. If this arrangement can not get a usable sound level something is seriously wrong here, and i don't mean with the gear but rather the operator.

 

[ampmadscientist]

I find that 15 watts is plenty, and will still produce hearing loss.

(I guess if you play in a band that is blasting themselves off the stage with loudness)
(Driving the audience out of the room with painful volume...)

But professionals generally do not play that way. They respect each-other and the audience.

I really love the Tiny Terror Orange amp which is 15 watts. It sounds better than a lot of other amps where low loudness is a factor.

In low loudness situation,
The tendency now is to use a lower watt amp, and crank it up full.
People are getting a better tone at a lower loudness with a low watt amp.

As opposed to using a 100 watt amp, and turning the master volume way down, in a low loudness situation.
This is where you lose a lot of the tone.

 

[GuitarIV]

A big part of that situation are the 96db speakers, and the other guitarist playing through v30s. But I understand where you are coming from. I always want a 50 watt or 100 watt amp in the bull pen so to speak.

The speakers certainly don't help the situation. I could bring my V30 Marshall cab over and that would help, but the 4db increased efficiency still won't help to beef up the Laney that has to fight the Powerball

I find that 15 watts is plenty, and will still produce hearing loss.

(I guess if you play in a band that is blasting themselves off the stage with loudness)
(Driving the audience out of the room with painful volume...)

But professionals generally do not play that way. They respect each-other and the audience.

I really love the Tiny Terror Orange amp which is 15 watts. It sounds better than a lot of other amps where low loudness is a factor.

In low loudness situation,
The tendency now is to use a lower watt amp, and crank it up full.
People are getting a better tone at a lower loudness with a low watt amp.

As opposed to using a 100 watt amp, and turning the master volume way down, in a low loudness situation.
This is where you lose a lot of the tone.

Every amp has its purpose in regards to the music one plays. As said, if I was playing a blues gig I'd be more than comfortable with the 15 watts and reach the sweet spot, after all it's about the nice saggy poweramp distortion coming into play. However when you play hard n heavy and of course loud (these guys like to turn up, our drummer is not quiet either, hence why I only play with earplugs) you need the power. I don't care about sag in my tone when I solo, but when I riff it needs to be tight, precise and surgical. I need a crunchy amp, a boost to push it into the least amount of distortion so everything retains clarity and then the poweramp section to stay clean and only amplify.

I don't want low end in my signal, I want punch. When I think of punch I think of my 1982 2203. You can play it clean with the master set to 1 and it feels like a giant fist is hitting you in the chest. My DSL lacks that (and almost every other modern amp I tried next to the 2203) but it still has it in spades compared to the little Laney. My theory here is again it's about the transformers.

So I'm not bashing my IRT Studio here, it's the perfect tool for home playing and recording and after all it got me through rehearsals so far, I'm saying for my specific situation I need a bigger amp.

 

[harleytech]

I too like the punch my 50 & 100 watters have... I don't much care for the "low watt" amps that are all the rage right now... I'll stick with what I know works for me...
JMHO..