1960b: particle board vs birch

[headcrash]

As far as I know, MDF is not as robust as multi ply wood. It breaks more easily under stress, whereas multi ply tends to bend a (very) little, before it breaks.
Also I wouldn't say that multi ply resonates that much, because of the structure (rectanglularly layed out layers of wood). Plus there is acertain amount of glue keeping it all together which stiffens the structure.
I'd guess, the reason why the bigger part of PA loudspeaker enclosures are made of birch multi ply is, that it is a good compormise of robustness, weight and "acoustical dead-ness".
The fact, that many guitar cabinets do resonate and/or seem to resonate more, than PA loudspeakers, might be the bracing that is missing in many or most guitar cabs.
Some 15 years ago I had on old Diezel 412 and it had comparatively elaborate bracing inside, and there was a reason for doing that (I'd bet to get an uncoloured tigth sound). Today, their front-loaded cabinets still have that bracing; you can see it on their website.
But it is not a matter of better or worse, just a matter of what works best for one's style and taste .

 

[SmokeyDopey]

Can't comment tone-wise since I've never done an A/B test, but for durability best bet is plywood. MDF isn't as road worthy.

 

[spacerocker]

Whilst I agree MDF can't be as strong as plywood - I have never heard of, or seen a cab (MDF or otherwise) which has broken in normal use! What would you have to do to damage a cab like that (apart from a car crash, maybe?)

I agree with what others have said about MDF and other materials without a defined regular structure (like wood grain) is preferable - at least in Hi-Fi amps to solid wood because it is less prone to resonance.

Most closed speaker cabs are referred to as "infinite baffle" This means that the cab is trying to deaden and absorb the sound coming out of the speaker (Hi-Fi speakers even have lagging or rock-wool type sound absorbing materials inside to help with this absorption).

The reason why sound out of the back of a speaker is undesirable is that the bass frequencies coming out of the back of a speaker are out of phase with those coming out of the front, and tend to cancel them out. The result of this is less bass. The cab is mainly there to soak-up this out-of-phase sound-wave coming from the back of the speaker

Hence a resonant material is not particularly desirable for speaker construction. Ever wondered why plywood is used rather than solid wood? It is because the multiple layers break up the grain structure and avoid resonance.

I can't say I have particularly noticed any difference (good or bad) between my solid ply 4x12 Cab and my newer part-MDF one. Both sound great, and any differences between them is mostly due to the speakers (old green-backs in one, newer Vintage 30s in the other!)

 

[scozz]

A few months ago I did a little experiment with the two 1-12 cabs I have. I have a solid birch cabinet and I have a MDF cab, both 1-12s. I used a Celestion G12M 65 Creamback to test the tone of each of these two cabinet materials. I installed the same Creamback in each cab to compare the tone. I recorded both to review the results. The results,.....

,....the MDF cabinet sounded quite a bit better to my ears.

Now we all know that good tone is very subjective so I can only speak for myself. The overall tone just sounded better to me, the lows were tight and smooth not boomy or flabby, and the highs were clear and kinda sparkly, not tinny or spikey. The mids were a bit difficult to diagnose, I couldn't really hear much of a difference in the mids.

Take this for what its worth,... a non-scientific experiment done by one guy at home,...with only one pair of ears.

 

[Filipe Soares]

In the end of the day your tone is a sum of a lot of factors (guitar wood, pickups, bridge type, construction type, cables, pedals, amps, speaker...) IMHO the effect the MDF or Birch might have in your overall tone seems to be very small when compared to everything. and the most important thing is mdf, or not, you're happy with your tone. choose with your ears.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

A few months ago I did a little experiment with the two 1-12 cabs I have. I have a solid birch cabinet and I have a MDF cab, both 1-12s. I used a Celestion G12M 65 Creamback to test the tone of each of these two cabinet materials. I installed the same Creamback in each cab to compare the tone. I recorded both to review the results. The results,.....

,....the MDF cabinet sounded quite a bit better to my ears.

Now we all know that good tone is very subjective so I can only speak for myself. The overall tone just sounded better to me, the lows were tight and smooth not boomy or flabby, and the highs were clear and kinda sparkly, not tinny or spikey. The mids were a bit difficult to diagnose, I couldn't really hear much of a difference in the mids.

Take this for what its worth,... a non-scientific experiment done by one guy at home,...with only one pair of ears.

I see more problems when the cabinet is over a certain size. For quite some time, Marshall wouldn't make the MDF 412 cab full-sized, because making the cab bigger, it got woofier. The woofiness would create an overwhelming mud/hum, whenever you played lower notes on the guitar, so, playing an open E or playing a G, would have this. It would be more problematic for trying to mic the cabinet.

There's a few old threads on here, where people cut the back panel on the 412 to make them vented back, or, they put insulation on the inside to tame it down.

1x12? Not so problematic. 2x12, that's where you'll notice a lot more differences (+/- in each direction). 4x12, well, I see people trying to sell them for $100 & they are still on the boards trying to sell 3 years later. I bought a 412 MG (which is smaller than a 1960 cab) for $15 empty. Mint condition. The guy started out at $80, then lowered it, & lowered it. $75, $65, $50, $35, $25, $20, then $15... I figured WTH... & picked it up. Nothing to lose really...

There's a reason, that those cab's have a hard time selling like that. I think it's sad that guitar cab mfgr's don't spend any time into acoustics & resonance studies & how to design a specific toned cab. They could tune those MDF cab's better. Not that you'd want a guitar cab audiophile spec'd, but, they could throw a reference analyzer on it & see what frequencies that the box throws out & tune it to not have that horrific woofiness.

I understand that the midrange is going to be more tame w/ MDF, but, even more problematic to me, is the low-end...

 

[lespaul339]

I've had cabs in both MDF and Birch. My current cab is 13 ply Birch made by Avatar. Honestly, I think it makes some difference in sound but not enough to where I wouldn't not play through a MDF cab. I think most the sound is coming from the speakers. By the time you're playing with a band, or by the time your recorded guitar sound gets mixed with everything else who can really tell the difference? Give me a MDF cab with good speakers and I wouldn't care.

 

[BanditPanda]

A few months ago I did a little experiment with the two 1-12 cabs I have. I have a solid birch cabinet and I have a MDF cab, both 1-12s. I used a Celestion G12M 65 Creamback to test the tone of each of these two cabinet materials. I installed the same Creamback in each cab to compare the tone. I recorded both to review the results. The results,.....

,....the MDF cabinet sounded quite a bit better to my ears.

Now we all know that good tone is very subjective so I can only speak for myself. The overall tone just sounded better to me, the lows were tight and smooth not boomy or flabby, and the highs were clear and kinda sparkly, not tinny or spikey. The mids were a bit difficult to diagnose, I couldn't really hear much of a difference in the mids.

Take this for what its worth,... a non-scientific experiment done by one guy at home,...with only one pair of ears.

Open or closed backs scozz ?
BP

 

[spacerocker]

1x12? Not so problematic. 2x12, that's where you'll notice a lot more differences (+/- in each direction). 4x12, well, I see people trying to sell them for $100 & they are still on the boards trying to sell 3 years later. I bought a 412 MG (which is smaller than a 1960 cab) for $15 empty. Mint condition. The guy started out at $80, then lowered it, & lowered it. $75, $65, $50, $35, $25, $20, then $15... I figured WTH... & picked it up. Nothing to lose really...

There's a reason, that those cab's have a hard time selling like that. I think it's sad that guitar cab mfgr's don't spend any time into acoustics & resonance studies & how to design a specific toned cab. They could tune those MDF cab's better. Not that you'd want a guitar cab audiophile spec'd, but, they could throw a reference analyzer on it & see what frequencies that the box throws out & tune it to not have that horrific woofiness.

I understand that the midrange is going to be more tame w/ MDF, but, even more problematic to me, is the low-end...

Yes there is a reason 4x12 Cabs are not selling - and it's not because their construction makes them sound bad! - It's because - well, because they are 4x12s!

I'm sure you are aware that there is a trend currently for smaller amps and smaller cabs, as most bigger venues mic the cabs anyway! That is the reason 4x12s are not selling. That - and the perception that big amp + big cab = deafeningly loud! Of course they can be - but even at low to mid volumes I would take a 4x12 Cab (whatever it is made of!) over a 2 x12 or 1 x 12 anyday!

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Yes there is a reason 4x12 Cabs are not selling - and it's not because their construction makes them sound bad! - It's because - well, because they are 4x12s!

I'm sure you are aware that there is a trend currently for smaller amps and smaller cabs, as most bigger venues mic the cabs anyway! That is the reason 4x12s are not selling. That - and the perception that big amp + big cab = deafeningly loud! Of course they can be - but even at low to mid volumes I would take a 4x12 Cab (whatever it is made of!) over a 2 x12 or 1 x 12 anyday!

meanwhile 1960 cab's are selling like hotcakes...

 

[scozz]

Open or closed backs scozz ?
BP

Both closed back BP,....

 

[scozz]

Yes there is a reason 4x12 Cabs are not selling - and it's not because their construction makes them sound bad! - It's because - well, because they are 4x12s!

I'm sure you are aware that there is a trend currently for smaller amps and smaller cabs, as most bigger venues mic the cabs anyway! That is the reason 4x12s are not selling. That - and the perception that big amp + big cab = deafeningly loud!

This makes total sense to me,....

I can't remember the last time I saw a local band performing with a 4-12 cab. I'm seeing 1 and 2-12 cabs, and combos, and to be honest the stage presence of the bands themselves has been diminished, including the stage itself!

 

[Filipe Soares]

Yes there is a reason 4x12 Cabs are not selling - and it's not because their construction makes them sound bad! - It's because - well, because they are 4x12s!

I'm sure you are aware that there is a trend currently for smaller amps and smaller cabs, as most bigger venues mic the cabs anyway! That is the reason 4x12s are not selling. That - and the perception that big amp + big cab = deafeningly loud! Of course they can be - but even at low to mid volumes I would take a 4x12 Cab (whatever it is made of!) over a 2 x12 or 1 x 12 anyday!

my old and reliable 1960 stayed in brazil... along with my randall 4x12. here in mexico I have an EVH 2x12 and 2 Ampegs with V30s... I miss my 4x12, but it's very unlikelly I'll buy another. I mean.. for the right price I'll buy, but it's not a priority.

and IMHO it's not about loud, it's about big , heavy and clumsy to carry... most of people outside USA does not have a truck to haul around the gear, and if they have (i had in brazil and still have here in mexico) parking is a pain in the ass. so for my needs it's better to have gear small enough to carry in one trip from the car to the venue/rehearse.

 

[Madfinger]

Ply is more robust & forgiving for road use, abuse, moisture, more expensive.
I've never heard anyone comment that a particular cab sounds inferior because it's MDF so I guess it just boils down to it's intended use & environment. JMO. Anyway.

 

[lespaul339]

That - and the perception that big amp + big cab = deafeningly loud! Of course they can be - but even at low to mid volumes I would take a 4x12 Cab (whatever it is made of!) over a 2 x12 or 1 x 12 anyday!

Agreed! I guarantee you that if you had two guitarists on stage, one with a combo amp and the other with a 4X12 stack, and you had the volume levels the same on both amps, the sound guy would tell the person playing through the 4x12 to turn down.

 

[spacerocker]

and IMHO it's not about loud, it's about big , heavy and clumsy to carry... most of people outside USA does not have a truck to haul around the gear, and if they have (i had in brazil and still have here in mexico) parking is a pain in the ass. so for my needs it's better to have gear small enough to carry in one trip from the car to the venue/rehearse.

True - but a 4x12 is only 4 inches taller than a 2 x 12, and 2 inches deeper. I get mine into a VW Passat Estate car stood up, along with all my other gear (including a full PA system). As for moving it about - I find it easier to move than my 2 x 12 (as long as stairs are not involved!), as it is on wheels and the 2 x 12 isn't! I can also turn the speaker and amp around while I wire it up, then put it back into place for the gig!

 

[Filipe Soares]

True - but a 4x12 is only 4 inches taller than a 2 x 12, and 2 inches deeper. I get mine into a VW Passat Estate car stood up, along with all my other gear (including a full PA system). As for moving it about - I find it easier to move than my 2 x 12 (as long as stairs are not involved!), as it is on wheels and the 2 x 12 isn't! I can also turn the speaker and amp around while I wire it up, then put it back into place for the gig!

Yes, but in the other side you have like 20lbs extra of speakers and wood. But I agree that 2x12 are a pain in the ass to carry. in the worst case scenario you can use a 4x12 to haul the head. my 2x12 it's been sitting on it's corner since it was purchased, but I carry around a 1x12 all the time. they do the job, are very light and loud. I'm thinking about a neo celestion to make it even lighter.

and SAVE THE WAGONS!!!!! Oh boy... I miss my 328i touring...

 

[spacerocker]

Yes, but in the other side you have like 20lbs extra of speakers and wood. But I agree that 2x12 are a pain in the ass to carry. in the worst case scenario you can use a 4x12 to haul the head. my 2x12 it's been sitting on it's corner since it was purchased, but I carry around a 1x12 all the time. they do the job, are very light and loud. I'm thinking about a neo celestion to make it even lighter.

and SAVE THE WAGONS!!!!! Oh boy... I miss my 328i touring...

I used a 150W 1x12 Cab for a while. Played a large hall, but was told to turn down as I was drowning out the band and the house PA! Used to have it on a chair - but the trouble with those things is, if you stand in front of it, it's like flicking a switch! LOUD-quiet-LOUD!....

 

[Filipe Soares]

I used a 150W 1x12 Cab for a while. Played a large hall, but was told to turn down as I was drowning out the band and the house PA! Used to have it on a chair - but the trouble with those things is, if you stand in front of it, it's like flicking a switch! LOUD-quiet-LOUD!....

Yes that sucks a lot. Sometimes I think making some sort of legs to my gigging cab. look what I've found https://amplegs.wordpress.com/

as there's no replacement for displacement... 4x12 will always be great and beloved, but sometimes you don't need a missile, just a handgun to make the job done.

 

[FIGMENT]

Mine isn’t. The baffle is birch but the rest is particle just like the rear panel.

Mine isn't either, but it is signed by Jim Marshall very big, twice on the sides.