Advice on 2 guitars in band

[Richardjordan]

Hi, our band uses me on Gibson firebird through marshall tsl with 4x12 and our lead guitarist on fender strat with vox 2x12& fender twin paired up. Our music is indie/rock example at allsharppoints.net

Our problem is that now we are thinking about developing our songs etc our tone can be hit and miss. Sometimes my marshall rhythm is awesome and driving the song on, others the lead cant be heard then i cant be heard when trying to compensate. We seems to be going down the road of more volume when wanting to be heard which i know is a deadly mistake as it drowns vocals and messes up the mix etc.

I have read and have limited understanding about using the mids of the eq to get the right tone. Does anybody have a simple process or step by step guild that i can chat to the band with about sorting out our tone so that the volume stays at one level? Maybe suggested general rhythm and lead eq settings but still allowing the rhythm to crank at the right moment.

Lead uses boss od orange and i use boss turbo od and tube screamer but these can be changed. I preferred the tsl tone but that was a nightmare using effects etc after the preamp then getting latency when changing from clean to od blah blah.

Is it a case of finding our nice general tones and then using mid boost mid cuts at the right moments?

Thanks in advance guys.

Rich

 

[Mosher Zone]

Your setups sound fine & if you are happy with the sound have you could place an EQ pedal after your od/dist pedals? If you set them with either a level boost or a slight lift in the mids you leads will cut through easily, this is what me & my band mate do.

 

[Richardjordan]

Cheers Mosher, so do you each use the mid boost pedal at different parts of your songs and switch off again straight after the sections etc?

Rich

 

[Mosher Zone]

Yeah we both use Boss GE-7 pedals. I have it right after my distortion pedal & have the level up to about 7dB & i kick that & my DD-2 in one stomp for solos only, he just uses the graphic but i love delay on my leads.

 

[chuckelator]

Your setups sound fine & if you are happy with the sound have you could place an EQ pedal after your od/dist pedals? If you set them with either a level boost or a slight lift in the mids you leads will cut through easily, this is what me & my band mate do.

This was going to be my suggestion actually. Boost the things you can't hear with an eq box when you need to. Clean boosts would also be a good option I would think.

 

[meridiansystem]

Sounds like your band is working with two different guitar tones when onstage.

Before buying any new gear or pedals, I'd recommend taking 30-45 min of a practice experimenting with your tone controls on the amps. You and the other guitarist should both be doing this. Balancing mids will be part of the equation, but matching up overdrive tones will likely be another part. (And by that I don't mean the amps need to sound identical, just more related.)

I did the same thing with my lead guitarist from 6 years ago. He was a shredder and I was a blues guy. Our vocalist would sit in and help strum while we took turns going into the audience and listening.

I checked out your website, good tunes! Best of luck.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

That's what a sound engineer is for...

The question is whether or not the Fender will cut enough during leads. IMO, if your guitar sits well in the mix w/ vocals, it should be left well enough alone. The lead parts should rise above the rhythm when necessary. The problem w/ having a boost before the power section of your tube amp, is that once the amp's power section's input gets so much input, it just saturates & clips out. At that point, you'll get compression, rather than volume gain.

Hopefully you guys are mic'd/mixed through a sound system. Then it's up to the soundman & the Fender's sonic ability to cut through the mix...

 

[Risamaru]

4x12 vs 2x12 he has 2 less speakers to move air and create sound. you'll always be buried with a 2x12 vs a 4x12.

 

[hbach]

Your gear seems fine. Two guitars can be tricky to balance. Sorry can't have a listen to your stuff right now, but when it comes to originals (or even covers) review the arrangements of your songs. If you have a riff, lead and vocals in close registers something will have to give, maybe move the lead and see how it fits with vocals. Or if the rhythm guitar is playing full chords with some gain it won't leave much room for some lead fills, maybe play the chords cleaner or on just three or four strings and be aware that guitar needs to step into the background. Best way is if you have a demo recording and you can play with the mix, visually seeing who has to back down a bit (and not turn up)

 

[trystan]

Hi. The lead guitar player here - these posts are really helpful - thanks.

Matching volume with the 4x12 isn't a problem: I play gigs through a 2x10 and 2x12 - 2x10 from a Vox AC10 twin and 2x12 from the Fender Twin via a modded output from the Vox to the Twin's effects return.

It does mean though that tone adjustment on the old vox is a bit limited: one knob, and it's 'subtle' to say the least.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Welcome to the forum, hope you get it sorted out...

Do you guys have a sound guy?

 

[trystan]

Thanks!

Unfortunately not. Where we're currently based doesn't have many venues (a bit backwater), so it's rare we get a decent mixed sound. It's solely down to amp levels / placement / tone etc.

 

[AbelsKeepeR]

Something else to consider. A well trained sound engineer should know when your leads come into play, and boost the volume on your, or your lead guitarist's mic'd cab. A good sound guy knows how to "play" the board at the right times for certain things going on it the songs. That mixer is an instrument just like the guitar. That's why we always made the sound man an equal partner/member of the band, with an equal cut of the gig money.....just something to consider.

 

[Mosher Zone]

Most bands don't have the luxury of their own soundman & have to rely on the in house guy to make them sound good. That's why recommend the boost cause when we play as long as the soundman can get all the basic levels we can take care of the rest ourselves.

 

[Richardjordan]

Thanks for all the advice guys. This all adds up to most of the ideas that I had but I wasn't sure of the best approach.

I think the solution is to do a combination of most things stated here:

Get our tones sorted at rehearsals (which we nearly have) to what sounds good by balancing our eq's and general od tone so that we have two "nice" tones that complement well and then find a good lead tone that suits.

Then at gigs, use the mid boosts via pedals (which we already have) when we feel the key moments are not getting through the mix.

I do believe the rhythm should be left well alone once sound checked but at times we harmonize and that needs to push through a little more than normal. As does some of the punchy middle 8's etc, so the eq is the way forward.

Thanks again for your help!



Rich & Trystan

allsharppoints.net

 

[Richardjordan]

This makes sense man, I do find that hitting power or barr chords upto 3/4 notes works much better at times and de-clutters the over all sound.

 

[scat7s]

just listening to the first track, my advice is the same as it usually is...

imo, for better continuity between stage left and stage right, turn your gain down.
you dont have to run as clean as your other guitar, but your basically running very crunchy, almost into what i would consider "high gain" territory, and your other guy is quite clean, just on the edge of breakup.

this to me, would be the best place to start. clean up your amp a bit, cleaning up will also allow a boost pedal to do its thing more efficiently, and more dramatically, ie: create a good boosted tone for when you need to ride above the mix a little bit.

good luck! you guys sound good!

 

[Richardjordan]

just listening to the first track, my advice is the same as it usually is...

imo, for better continuity between stage left and stage right, turn your gain down.
you dont have to run as clean as your other guitar, but your basically running very crunchy, almost into what i would consider "high gain" territory, and your other guy is quite clean, just on the edge of breakup.

this to me, would be the best place to start. clean up your amp a bit, cleaning up will also allow a boost pedal to do its thing more efficiently, and more dramatically, ie: create a good boosted tone for when you need to ride above the mix a little bit.

good luck! you guys sound good!

Thanks scat7s, I completely agree with what you say about the recording, and I do think we/I dial too much gain into our live shows too so I will pay attention to that.

If I'm honest, the first thing I noticed after we got the CD was that the gain was too high - it sounded different pre mix (as it would). One of those learn with experience things.

Thanks for your input mate - it makes perfect sense.

 

[GuitarBuilder]

On the mixer I would pan each of you apart; on stage, you should set up as far apart as possible.

 

[phuzaxeman]

depending on what type of band you are, when i consult other bands i let them know that vocals are the most important aspect of the overall sound (unless you are that scream band that doesn't care about vocals).

a drummer and his playing is also important on the mix because the drummers cymbals/snare, guitars, and vocals will overlap on the frequency spectrum so you have to be careful not to drown the vocals.

i've set the drums and vocal levels first and then add the guitars and bass and keys next making sure you don't get in a volume match. sometimes when you have the guitars crank with the drums and add vocals last, you have a singer trying to sing too loud losing quality of their timbre and competing with guitars.

if you are having a problem with guitar volume i'd suggest try using a volume pedal. good musicians are aware of their volume and know how to apply dynamics to the overall sound without stepping over anyone.

just like good singers practicing backing away from the mic when hitting a high loud note, guitarists need to be aware of their volume. getting sound to sit in a mix (not just tearing through the mix) in way that's balance is important.

when you have 2 guitarists, it's important to know each others sound and work together rather than compete. roles play an important key to good sound. are you the main rhythm guy? the other guitarist more texture? or do you play the same thing? set your levels accordingly.

-ken