Disappointed with 1987x, JTM45 RI (component quality)

[TheMagicEight]

@TheMagicEight Did you end up doing recordings to show the difference?

I did! Files available here.

The one labeled 1987h is after the board swap. It probably stands out more when playing through it, but I still hear a significant difference in the recording.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I've got some terrible news for you. It's actually extremely unlikely that different types of capacitors sound different enough from each other that you'll ever notice. Every time I've ever heard two capacitors sound "different", upon inspection and careful measurement with precision instruments, it turned out that their capacitive VALUES were different.

I might have thought that, at the very least, two capacitors with the same measured capacitance value but different ESR ratings might sound different, but actually doing that experiment in an A/B format with a toggle switch choosing between the two parts yielded results that did not support that supposition.

I know this runs counter to the biased beliefs of MANY of us, but this is simply what I've observed via experimentation.

Value of components is what DOES matter. The primary value. Resistance for resistors, capacitance for capacitors, inductance for inductors. Other values that can be attributed to them have not been found (not by me, anyway) to ever create an audible effect.

If someone has evidence to the contrary, feel free to post information in support of it. Which would include precision value measurements of the magical parts in question. Precision to better than 1 percent component tolerance.

 

[mAx___]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Agreed ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

 

[TheMagicEight]

I've got some terrible news for you. It's actually extremely unlikely that different types of capacitors sound different enough from each other that you'll ever notice. Every time I've ever heard two capacitors sound "different", upon inspection and careful measurement with precision instruments, it turned out that their capacitive VALUES were different.

I might have thought that, at the very least, two capacitors with the same measured capacitance value but different ESR ratings might sound different, but actually doing that experiment in an A/B format with a toggle switch choosing between the two parts yielded results that did not support that supposition.

I know this runs counter to the biased beliefs of MANY of us, but this is simply what I've observed via experimentation.

Value of components is what DOES matter. The primary value. Resistance for resistors, capacitance for capacitors, inductance for inductors. Other values that can be attributed to them have not been found (not by me, anyway) to ever create an audible effect.

If someone has evidence to the contrary, feel free to post information in support of it. Which would include precision value measurements of the magical parts in question. Precision to better than 1 percent component tolerance.

I've talked about this with some members on the SloClone forum, and it'd be interesting to run an experiment to test (hopefully definitively) whether it's even possible for cap types to affect tone, let alone if it's audible. Two capacitors of different types, that measure identically (measured precisely), and everything else kept constant. Then pass an identical signal with each in the circuit, and perform FFT on the resulting signal somewhere down the chain. See if there's any difference in the harmonic content, phase, etc. Take the difference in signal between the two recordings and see if you're left with anything (if they really are identical, you shouldn't be).

In my case, it's not really terrible news for me because I've now done the swap and am happy with the results

I will add though, I've had this experience a few times now where I've preferred paper in oil caps to something else. Check out my recordings if you haven't yet; I think it's easy to hear the difference in the treble response. I can't claim for sure whether it's the cap type or if it's the values causing the change (or something else!), but my anecdotal, imprecise, unscientific evidence of very few data points is that paper in oil caps sound better in a Plexi circuit than do other cap types. YMMV

 

[What?]

I did! Files available here.

The one labeled 1987h is after the board swap. It probably stands out more when playing through it, but I still hear a significant difference in the recording.

It's pretty hard to tell the difference here on good headphones. But I definitely know that things which are very easily heard in person can come across as much more subtle in a recording. What I think I'm might be hearing is more high frequency trash around the note envelopes for the 1987x than for the 1987h.

On comparing caps, the thing is that you would probably have to sort through a ton of same value caps to get some close enough in value to compare.

 

[guitarbilly74]

I think at the end of the day, the goal is to get a tone you're happy with. If you think you're hearing something you like better with paper caps, then just use that. The amp sounds good.

The guitar/amp community is full of anecdotal information that can't really be proven scientifically, which in a way makes sense, because at the end of the day, these are tools for art.
So even if it's "just in your head", if it's working for you, go for it. A lot of what define music/tone is just in our heads anyway.

So if someone swears by paper caps or NOS parts or PTP or whatever AND he's making great sounding amps the way he's making them, is really even worth arguing that point?

I have long given up on trying to analyze certain things and today my view is, is your building/playing/writing philosophy producing good results? If so, keep going with it.

Now, if you have some hardened beliefs AND the amp/clips sounds like crap (which is not the case here), ok let's analyze that.

But good is good.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

My thoughts on the matter are easily summed up:

If it's easy to hear the difference, it should be easier to measure the difference, since we have measuring equipment that is FAR more sensitive, precise, accurate, and repeatable than any human senses.

When comparing parts, the "important" value of it, (resistance for resistors, capacitance for capacitors, etc) needs to be closely matched or you WILL be able to measure (and probably hear) a difference for that reason alone.

If there IS no difference that can be detected, why would you willingly pay more for that component?

I'm all for differences that make a difference. Even if there is a (reasonable) cost involved, considering what you are getting for your money.

I'm NOT for PAYING for differences that make no difference! ....but yet this is the High Profit Zone that many companies love to cater to!

 

[vivanchenko]

I am yet to play a vintage amp that I liked. Well, apart from my 72 Traynor . Check out any vintage vs modern video on YouTube and you will see that new amps always sound brighter.

One thing most people forget to consider is transformer wiring insulation. It is very thin, and it degrades/decomposes over time. Most transformers are designed for 20 years of service life only.

I am pretty sure that new transformers would bring the juices back into your amp, but I know, it sounds like a sacrilege.

 

[What?]

My thoughts on the matter are easily summed up:

If it's easy to hear the difference, it should be easier to measure the difference, since we have measuring equipment that is FAR more sensitive, precise, accurate, and repeatable than any human senses.

When comparing parts, the "important" value of it, (resistance for resistors, capacitance for capacitors, etc) needs to be closely matched or you WILL be able to measure (and probably hear) a difference for that reason alone.

If there IS no difference that can be detected, why would you willingly pay more for that component?

I'm all for differences that make a difference. Even if there is a (reasonable) cost involved, considering what you are getting for your money.

I'm NOT for PAYING for differences that make no difference! ....but yet this is the High Profit Zone that many companies love to cater to!

How do you get caps that are close enough in value to compare in the first place? It seems like an impractical endeavor to me, just because of that.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

Most electronic component vendors offer components at varying tolerance levels. 1 percent is usually available. And typically they can offer hand selected parts to tighter specified tolerances, for a small additional charge.

 

[guitarbilly74]

My thoughts on the matter are easily summed up:

If it's easy to hear the difference, it should be easier to measure the difference, since we have measuring equipment that is FAR more sensitive, precise, accurate, and repeatable than any human senses.

When comparing parts, the "important" value of it, (resistance for resistors, capacitance for capacitors, etc) needs to be closely matched or you WILL be able to measure (and probably hear) a difference for that reason alone.

If there IS no difference that can be detected, why would you willingly pay more for that component?

I'm all for differences that make a difference. Even if there is a (reasonable) cost involved, considering what you are getting for your money.

I'm NOT for PAYING for differences that make no difference! ....but yet this is the High Profit Zone that many companies love to cater to!

I get that. And I think you're right.

What I was getting at is that when it comes to small builders or personal builds, that's very much a craft, and many craftsmen see themselves as artists as much as builders.

Many of them see accurate vintage recreation, material selection, hand wiring etc as part of their craft/artistry and if that's what makes them inspired and drives them create great products, so be it.

We see that with guitar playing too, whether it's the metal guy with the pointy guitar with a blood splatter finish or the blues guy with the relicd guitar, none of that make any difference in tone etc. It's just a "vibe" and it's inspiring to them.

With personal/small-scale amp building, it's pretty much the same. People want the amp to sound right AND "look right" when they open it up. Nothing wrong with that if the end result is good.

Now if you're dealing with industrial production, then yes, cost vs benefit analysis is a must.

Other than that, not every decision has to be pragmatic, and it's not necessarily a "waste" of money. If the end result is satisfying to you, that's what matters at the end of the day.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I'm all in favor of using quality components and building to last! See that guitar in my avatar? I made it, I scratch build my guitars, same as PRS does, same as any boutique luthier does. I COULD use Gotoh hardware. I use Schaller. I COULD paint my guitars with spray paint from wal-mart. Instead I spend a lot more using Dupont (Axalta now) automotive acrylic urethane for the finish. I COULD use cheap imported pickups, but I use Seymour Duncan and other highly regarded brands. Even though I could build a guitar that is just as playable and functional for WAY less money, and believe me, every time I build a guitar I KNOW that it's going to cost me around a thousand dollars, I refuse to do so. I build the best guitar with the highest quality components and workmanship that I can possibly make. And I will cheerfully compare my best works to anything that comes out of PRS' factory in Maryland.

There's a pride of workmanship that even applies to just using better materials. For a true craftsman, it can be no other way.

 

[What?]

There's a pride of workmanship that even applies to just using better materials. For a true craftsman, it can be no other way.

It takes all kinds. That's not what Fender and Marshall did. Or Martin or Gibson. But they got lucky in earlier decades of having better sounding components and better wood to work with, even while resorting to cost cutting measures.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I don't even really believe that. Are "vintage" guitars really "better" sounding? Maybe, maybe not. But since they were what we had when rock was young, they became the de facto standard, and the sound that we expected to hear. Maybe they created their own legend just by BEING. Not being BETTER, just being what was AVAILABLE.

Alternatively you can also figure that they were also the product of rapid evolution from the first workable guitars, to something that was beyond workable and actually was BETTER than the first guitars, and represent a degree of design maturity.

By way of comparison, look at airplanes. There was a lot of evolution and many unique design stages from the first Wright flyer to the advent of the Boeing 707, but since the 707 and its competitors, the general appearance of aircraft has changed far less. Design maturity was achieved in the 50s, and for both guitars and airplanes, improvements since then have been evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

Were the wood available to guitar makers in the 50s and 60s better than what's available today? Any good wood available then is available today, but maybe not in the same quantities. Lots of old growth forests were simply harvested out and those wood stocks were used up. So they had a bigger supply of some really good lumber, that is certain. But on a more limited basis, wood that is just as good is still available today.

Except that we will never again (in our lifetimes) experience the kind of wood that comes from ancient old growth forests being strip mined by people who had no interest in anything but getting that wood and selling it for a profit. It's not like when the forests of Honduran Mahogany, Brazilian Rosewood, and Brazilian Pernambuco were stripped, and they were NOT thougtfully replanted for the future by the loggers once they got done stripping the forests of every economically viable piece of timber they could cut down and haul out!

You may not know about Pernambuco but it's what GOOD violin bows are made of and really good pieces are insanely expensive. And it's under heavy CITES restrictions due to its rarity. But in the 1800s it was extremely plentiful and was harvested for....of all things....its usage as a source of DYE. A rich red-orange dye is made from grinding it to sawdust and mixing it with water. That dye was used to dye clothing and other articles. Yet it has superb mechanical properties and if it were plentiful now like it was then, it'd be a common choice as a neck wood with a lot of luthiers. I've built two guitars with Pernambuco necks. PRS has built a few dozen. It's NOT easy to find pieces big enough to make necks but I got lucky and found a few. I have four blanks remaining to me. For some special projects for the future. Probably I'll have to build them pretty soon while I'm still young enough to do it.

 

[X2203xman]

Bright cap will make s huge difference in a plexi circuit.I like a bright amp base tone then mellow out the tone with a eq pedal and guitar tone knob.The larger bright caps offer better crunch and more lively harmonics.My 1987x sounded pretty boring.I have a handmade Ceriatone clone now that has a much smoother tone,and has the sound I hear on those classic recordings.

 

[What?]

Bright cap will make s huge difference in a plexi circuit.I like a bright amp base tone then mellow out the tone with a eq pedal and guitar tone knob.The larger bright caps offer better crunch and more lively harmonics.My 1987x sounded pretty boring.I have a handmade Ceriatone clone now that has a much smoother tone,and has the sound I hear on those classic recordings.

Bright cap really does make a huge difference. And +1 for Ceriatone. A better made amp for less money = win/win. I think you could just about get 2 handwired Ceriatones for the price of 1 pcb Marshall (in the U.S., any way).

 

[LyseFar]

Modern components are "boringly" precise and has to comply to modern RF standards and regulations whereas the components/transformers used in the classic era (until JCM900 I guess) where all over the place.
Think about how different the older ones sounds...some really good and some not. Lucky combinations.
The modern manufacturing methods aligns the tolerances.

In my builds I by purpose choose standard grade lamination in the trafos and - some places - 10% carbon comp resistors and some places better tolerances. Chaos by design.

 

[PelliX]

Bright cap will make s huge difference in a plexi circuit.I like a bright amp base tone then mellow out the tone with a eq pedal and guitar tone knob.The larger bright caps offer better crunch and more lively harmonics.My 1987x sounded pretty boring.I have a handmade Ceriatone clone now that has a much smoother tone,and has the sound I hear on those classic recordings.

I think you're missing the point here; the notion that different capacitors will sound different is correct. However, they will sound different due to varying values. If you buy a 1% tolerance cap of a given value today off the shelf and compare it to a 50 year old capacitor of the same spec, chances are they will differ quite a bit in measurement and thus in performance (tone). A lot of the "magic" in, for example, tone caps in guitars is drift. "Nothing sounds as good as this old paper and wax cap I have in there...". We've all heard that one. Then you measure the capacitance and find its drifted way off spec. Replace it with a brand new cap of the "drifted spec" and the magic is there again. Also, especially in the case of a bright cap, the physical size really plays a tiny, tiny role at best.

 

[What?]

I think you're missing the point here; the notion that different capacitors will sound different is correct. However, they will sound different due to varying values. If you buy a 1% tolerance cap of a given value today off the shelf and compare it to a 50 year old capacitor of the same spec, chances are they will differ quite a bit in measurement and thus in performance (tone). A lot of the "magic" in, for example, tone caps in guitars is drift. "Nothing sounds as good as this old paper and wax cap I have in there...". We've all heard that one. Then you measure the capacitance and find its drifted way off spec. Replace it with a brand new cap of the "drifted spec" and the magic is there again. Also, especially in the case of a bright cap, the physical size really plays a tiny, tiny role at best.

I'm pretty sure that @X2203xman is talking about bright cap value, as am I, not vintage vs. modern or capacitor type.

 

[X2203xman]

I'm pretty sure that @X2203xman is talking about bright cap value, as am I, not vintage vs. modern or capacitor type.

Indeed value.Plays a huge role in the simple plexi circuit.