Does capacitor brand really make any difference?

[PelliX]

It's lower and you're finding the octaves. It might be the 60 HZ AC coming out of the wall causing it.

I think you mean the harmonics, so 60, 120, 240. Could well be. If it's 120Hz it's coming from the rectifier, so I'd check the filter caps.

 

[NickKUK]

I'm quite an evidence based person.

I've done a few recaps of old 30+ year old design hifi amps and other equipment, some solid state and some tube based (including an old 1957 receiver).

There's a few things that get lost in the discussion:

Specifications - specifically the DC and AC ratings. Most people seem to look at a single rating but actually an AC rating is as important. You may have a 400V DC rated film cap that then has a sub-200V AC rating. If your cap is dealing with a high gain output where the signal is driving a larger tube, then you may find that AC rating is going to cause you issues. A lower AC rating will end up distorting the signal at higher amplitudes (which could contribute to the NOS/vintage tone).
Specifications also indicate you're going to get a batch of 10 caps that are similar enough to substitute - this is where boutique starts annoying me, specifically where they don't provides a specification sheet, specifically showing the frequency vs ESR, etc

Now specifications, from experience don't make sound/tone.
Reason I know this is from replacing old Jamicon electrolytics in the signal path with Panasonic film caps only to find the sound being dark and muddy. I then switched for WIMA MKP10, not impressed but then WIMA MKP4 which gave clarity.
Now the reason I say - make tone/sound - is that the design (power supplies/components/signal design) all vary the environment that the substituted cap is placed in. The result can cause variation between amps, especially those that have had some drift due to thermal cycling or temperatures.
After switching the Jamicons to CDE (power), Panasonic low ESR organics for pre-stage decoupling and moving to film for the signal coupling caps, lastly switching out the cooked underwattaged resistors for larger metal oil Dale etc, it increased clarity.. that then ended up changing out the opamp pre ... etc etc.. The amp had lost a chunk of it's old character of tonally muddy class AB (heavily biased to operate the majority of it's time in class A), to be come a clear sounding with nuances that showed up the media being used.
Good power caps - back to the specs - that give better ESR at 50/60Hz are going to be better suited than those that are tuned for higher frequencies. The larger the cap, typically the better the ESR. Old caps tended to have a wider applicability for purpose, new caps (by design) tend to be more specialised.
I've directly Bode tested the caps for Panasonic, WIMA and Vishay, and the low voltage bode test does not show any statistically significant difference. What is important here is to place cap in the amp and then give it the full DC and AC through the amp and then check the bode plot.

Having said that a considerable amount of tone is made from so many unspecified components it's quite difficult to define the tone.
* resistors - thermal noise, etc
* caps - DC + AC effects like compression and distortion, blocking, phase shift at frequency etc that can change with temperature.
* tubes - different noise and transconductance with frequency based on previous state (ie a DC, vs AC vs pulse will have different outcome based on the thermal levels off the cathode/heaters, capacitance etc in the tube itself).
* diodes ..
... and the list goes on with power transformers and output transformers.
* line wall voltage and the noise that causes additional distortion effects

Manufacturers like Marshal and Fender are always looking for a statistical similarity but they know they'll never make two amps the same. You'll end up with a stunning amp, a plain Jane and Friday-PM special.. just by the component lotto.

Back to subject.

Caps I like
* Vishay MKT and MKP film caps - not had an issue and sound good.
* WIMA film caps - the massive FKP1s are clear as a bell but they're not audio caps! The MK4 are great sounding for hifi (630Vdc, 400Vac are the ones I like!).
* Panasonic low ESR organics for close in power decoupling

Caps I have no real preference or dislike for
* Panasonic power electrolytics
* CDE power caps
* F&T electrolytics (450V and 500V) although they seem a little slow.

Caps I'm less enamoured by:
* Panasonic film caps
* WIMA MK10

Caps I've not tried and don't have experience of
* Sprague
* IC
* Boutiques like Mundorf, Jansen, MOD
* RS NOS (any NOS electrolytics is very very likely to be way past it's life/shelf life)

So you can see - I don't see a guitar amp as an alchemist/witches brew but something that can be characterised (although with large numbers of variables). I don't mind boutiques IF they can provide visibility of the magic sauce that gives them the ingredient within the tone and they can provide that on a consistent basis with each batch.
If you're not giving a datasheet then.. I start asking uncomfortable questions.

 

[PelliX]

So you can see - I don't see a guitar amp as an alchemist/witches brew but something that can be characterised (although with large numbers of variables). I don't mind boutiques IF they can provide visibility of the magic sauce that gives them the ingredient within the tone and they can provide that on a consistent basis with each batch.
If you're not giving a datasheet then.. I start asking uncomfortable questions.

I'd hang that on my workshop wall.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

All very nice chaps, and I'm sure you're all correct, but I, for one, am not chasing perfection (whatever that is), just good enough.

Rabbit hole?

 

[NickKUK]

Rabbit hole?

View attachment 158480

That's either a Jamicon or CapXon cap.. Rifa was square bodied

 

[PelliX]

All very nice chaps, and I'm sure you're all correct, but I, for one, am not chasing perfection (whatever that is), just good enough.

Rabbit hole?

View attachment 158480

Aaww, it's thirsty! It needs electrolytes. They're what plants capacitors crave...

 

[JzRepair]

To the OP, I will suggest this when choosing filter caps. Look at the schematic for expected DC voltage and select your replacement caps to have a voltage rating 30%-35% higher than this expected voltage. So, if the circuit is expecting 100V, then you want to select a cap with a voltage rating of 130V at a bare minimum, but since this isn't a standard value, then 150V would be perfectly fine. Headroom is just as important as temperature when it comes to longevity.

Personally, I don't care what the manufacturer put in the circuit in regards to brand. Whenever possible, I choose Nichicon, Rubycon, and Panasonic as a first choice, but we all know sometimes you just can't find your preferred brand in the values you need. Just stay away from the Chinese knock-off brands. They are riddled with problems and won't last long. For instance, if I see Jamicon or Samwha, these immediately get replaced. In my experience, these are garbage and never last long. Putting subpar caps into a circuit can and often does cause issues later on. When a cap fails, it can often send out a surge that tends to take out other components down the line, especially FETs that are highly susceptible to ESD and surges of any kind.

As for tonal differences, I've never noticed a difference, no matter what caps I've chosen and my customers have never complained about the choices of caps I've used. IC caps are not my first choice, but I've had to use them on many occasions and not had any issues. Again, the key is to make sure you properly select your voltage rating. Many manufacturers, especially from years ago, didn't allow for any headroom (or only allowed very little headroom) and this ultimately shortens the life of the capacitor, as does heat ratings. Like others have said, even if the temperature won't ever get up to 105C, it's still a good idea to use higher temperature rated caps simply for their longevity.

On another note, most major distributors will carry top brands at very reasonable prices. Do yourself a favor and don't buy caps from eBay/Amazon, unless it's an absolute last resort. You don't know how old those caps are or what state they're in. Buy from a legitimate distributor, because they'll be guaranteed. You might still get some bad caps here and there, but they'll be completely backed up and the company will replace them at no charge and no hassle. PLUS, you know you won't be getting any fakes that can open up a whole other can of worms.

 

[Guitar-Rocker]

Ok I'll bite. I've built a few hundred amps so I got to be crazy. I prefer Vishay MKT's 1813 for clarity. Note I did not say for clean. If you don't understand the difference between clarity and clean, then quit reading. To me they are far more soulful / toneful. Yeah I said I'm crazy.

I feel original mustards are very smooth sounding, but always a bit darker. Mallorys display more grit /sizzle tones. Am NOT a fan of Sozos at all, yeah even broken in.

I have not had good experiences with JJ cap cans, noisy has been my take. I use F/T cap cans.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

I must admit I'm suspicious of SoZo caps. Anyone who just took the logo of a certain Mr. J. Page of London W1 and messed it about... well, it might fool some of the people all of the time, etc., etc.

I'm also very suspicious of "NOS" stuff.

A lot of the rest seems to come down to your individual preferences, and I'm not sure my hearing is still good enough (I blame being in the audience at 80s Motorhead etc. gigs and motorcycling) to appreciate any difference.

I'm going to try some Vishay coupling caps, but beyond that...

Thanks anyway.

 

[Derrick111]

Regarding if caps actually make any difference, a few thoughts. First, I think that @NickKUK really gave great info on this... there is both sound and function. It's not just working/not working, and he gives great food for thought on that.

Secondly, the application, the actual individual circuit itself, and the way an operator uses the piece of equipment can really affect the way they "hear" a cap (or not). I have had people tell me Mustard caps are stupid wastes of money because they can't hear any difference. It's the age old, "if I can hear it, nobody can" without taking the above into account.

I see a lot of people claim bias hearing what you want to hear too. I will make this example... last year, I restored a JCM800 so I could sell it and make some room. It had the typical 80s/90s mods including replacing all of the signal caps with something "better". First I tried some Vishay caps as used in reissues, and they sounded good. I did like them better than the caps that were in there when I got it. Then I found original Philips block caps as used in late 70s though mid 80s for the resto and popped them in. I didn't make any other changes but the caps. When I tested the amp after installing the Philips metalized polyester caps, there was quite a noticeable change. In fact, a night and day change so great that I decided to keep the amp for myself. I was not biased, I just wanted to restore and make nice for the future owner. This amp with just the cap change alone is now one of the best sounding JCM800 I've ever owned/heard. So much so, I sold off two factory stock examples that instantly became redundant. So why is that? Re-read the post from @NickKUK above. Caps can make a difference, even if they don't always.

 

[racerxrated]

Regarding Filter(can) caps, most will say brand doesn’t matter but I can actually hear a difference in F&T vs ARS for example. Had a Jubilee 2555 that had F&T, the gain seemed kind of choppy or grainy. Changed to ARS and it sounded like it should. Same thing with an 82 2204….changed to ARS and no more grainy-ness to the decay of the gain when I played the amp. So I stick with ARS if I need to replace the filter caps since they sound and look like the old LCRs.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I'd be willing to do that experiment, pull the F&Ts and put ARS caps in their place. And I know just the amp to do that experiment in.

I actually spent a little bit of time trying to persuade Kemet, the current owner of the Daly capacitor brand name and intellectual property, to relaunch Daly caps, but just as they started to get a little bit of movement on that project, everything came to a halt when Kemet was acquired by Yageo. Which of course adds another layer of delay to everything. I still think it's worth doing. It's not like people are scrapping very many older Marshall amps. They'll stick around and eventually get recapped again.

 

[PelliX]

Derrick touched on the function and that's important. Are you going to hear a difference if you replace every single cap in the signal path in a JCM? Yes, well possible. Tolerances, specs, characteristics, etc. Then there are those who claim they can hear the difference between tone caps (of equal value) in a guitar. Yeah, uhm, sure.

Regarding Filter(can) caps, most will say brand doesn’t matter but I can actually hear a difference in F&T vs ARS for example. Had a Jubilee 2555 that had F&T, the gain seemed kind of choppy or grainy. Changed to ARS and it sounded like it should. Same thing with an 82 2204….changed to ARS and no more grainy-ness to the decay of the gain when I played the amp. So I stick with ARS if I need to replace the filter caps since they sound and look like the old LCRs.

The filter cans are not in the signal path, really. Of course anything that impacts the HT can be very noticeable in the sound. If you're getting ripple or the cap is discharging too much, that will be visible on a scope. Did you run any tests on these caps?

 

[Ricky610]

Yeah, I know, jumping down a HUGE rabbit hole here...

I'm currently using nothing special caps bought on eBay, mostly marked MPT brand (whatever that is) for basic caps, JJ for the big can caps and pretty much whatever I can get for the smaller dielectrics. Generally the regular caps are 630 volt, the big dielectrics 500 volts and the smaller dielectrics 150/250/500 volt rated, at or slightly above the values shown on the schematics.

They seem to do the job but I'm chasing down hum, "motor-boating" (popping), and hiss.

Questions are:

1. Is there any real point in using a different modestly priced brand or are we going down the rabbit hole already?
2. What modestly priced brand(s) are recommended? I'm not into boutique, Vintage NOS, or crazy priced items. These are homebuilt DIY kits, not vintage Marshalls, let alone ones once played by [insert name of legendary rock God here].
3. Which caps would you prioritize for "better" ones?
4. What would the effects be, if any, on tonality or noise reduction?

Thanks

"Buggs Bunny"

I Would have to agree tolerance and heat rating are important to keep the amp right.

 

[nortiks]

Regarding alleged tonal differences of coupling caps...yes...and it will manifest more so in high impedance circuits. This is because no cap is ideal; its also part resistor (which is usually different over frequency and that difference may or may not be linear), and its also part inductor (which again may or may not be linear). A healthy cap keeps the non-ideal characteristics to a minimum, but none are absolute zero. And it follows that different manufacturers have different design, materials, and processes to make equivalent parts, which are "equivalent" and not "identical".

So its easily explained and not automatically "snake oil". Personally, I'm of the school that pretty much any tone can be used creatively for something, and its just a matter of what you want the "default" tone to be, which of course is a personal subjective opinion. The snake oil aspect only enters in when someone wants to sell you a 50 year old cap and they swear you will sound exactly like your hero if you just pay them $100 for said cap, LOL.

 

[mark simpson]

Panasonic 105C Electrolytics from Mouser are good and not expensive. I get all my caps and other components from Mouser. I'm in the same Zone and get them next day at Ground prices.

 

[nortiks]

Panasonic 105C Electrolytics from Mouser are good and not expensive. I get all my caps and other components from Mouser. I'm in the same Zone and get them next day at Ground prices.

Panasonic like all the others, offers a wide range of small electrolytics. LOL I had to go down the rabbit hole of what/why the differences of all those different models a few years ago when I recapped some of my ASIO hardware....I had to do spreadsheets for the different parts being pulled and mapped to the correct Panasonic replacements. After getting my head wrapped around the differences, I can safely say that project would have not ended well at all had I not done this...there is a reason they offer all those different models. Of course for something like a guitar amp those differences are much less critical and rated temp / rated lifespan are usually all you need to be concerned with...

 

[Frank Araneo]

I can only speak for caps in the guitar. I did major testing and I heard differences between brands. I politely ignore those who say otherwise.

This might be a video you'll want not to politely ignore. It's also relevant to note that in guitar tone circuits the signal passing through the cap is going to ground, i.e., it's no longer in the signal chain.

 

[Cpt Adama]

Stick with Nichicon, Rubycon, Panasonic, Vishay, Sprague for anything meaningful. If you're just shotgunning the filter caps on your pedal power supply I wouldn't worry too much - it depends on the application. Don't be mislead by buying 'rebrand' capacitors that claim to be more than they are like "TAD" (who've never made a cap in their existence) or the Sozo labeled stuff. That's where the rabbit hole starts.

I think you forgot to add the German made F&T caps (Fischer & Tausche), primarily know for their large filter caps, have been making premium caps since the 40’s.

 

[racerxrated]

Derrick touched on the function and that's important. Are you going to hear a difference if you replace every single cap in the signal path in a JCM? Yes, well possible. Tolerances, specs, characteristics, etc. Then there are those who claim they can hear the difference between tone caps (of equal value) in a guitar. Yeah, uhm, sure.



The filter cans are not in the signal path, really. Of course anything that impacts the HT can be very noticeable in the sound. If you're getting ripple or the cap is discharging too much, that will be visible on a scope. Did you run any tests on these caps?

Tests? Other than what my ears tell me, no. I know, many don’t believe there’s a noticeable difference with filter cap brands but with 2 amps that had newer F&Ts, the same grainy/choppy decay to the note/chord was present in both…after changing to ARS it was gone. We all hear things differently..I’m not the only one who’s noticed a difference between F&T and ARS. I have friends who feel a DSL or a 900 is as good as a 2203/4….I feel the 2203/4 is a good bit better than either.