In search of authentic plexi tones at practical volumes and setups

[WellBurnTheSky]

Playing a100watt plexi unattenuated in a small room/bar, might be fine when you're 20, play in a punkband in front of your friends and noone gives a fuxx. But when you try to attract a crowd who never heard of you, who thinks live music should sound like the record, you need to sound good as a band...I love a100watter and two side by side 4x12 as much as the next guy, but unless is a stadium stage, that's a dinosaur. A remnant of the past... try it in any decent size bar and once your friends stop showing up, you'll be playing for empty floors... those of us here, at 45-plus and still gigging, have all been there and learned, Or we wouldn't get any more gigs. No bar owner wants a band that doesnt attract a crowd. Saying "fuxx off if you don't like it" is a sure way never getting return gigs...

Even on bigger stages tbh. Also, being painfully loud on stage is a surefire way to piss off your bandmates and your sound guy, both not very smart ideas if you're actually trying to go anywhere beyond the local dive (or even get out of the garage).
Not talking about the silent stage thing either (seriously, I hate these, they're a complete buzzkill), but again, there's a middle point...which in this day and age unsurprisingly is both the smartest and most effective way, unless you're only playing stadiums and arenas as the main act (but let's not kid ourselves, who here does ? thought so).

 

[tallcoolone]

try it in any decent size bar

I’d be willing to bet that none of the folks you are addressing have been on a stage in the past decade, if ever.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Even on bigger stages tbh. Also, being painfully loud on stage is a surefire way to piss off your bandmates and your sound guy, both not very smart ideas if you're actually trying to go anywhere beyond the local dive (or even get out of the garage).
Not talking about the silent stage thing either (seriously, I hate these, they're a complete buzzkill), but again, there's a middle point...which in this day and age unsurprisingly is both the smartest and most effective way, unless you're only playing stadiums and arenas as the main act (but let's not kid ourselves, who here does ? thought so).

&... it's a way to make the band look bad & undesirable to see live...

I've told this story before...

I once mixed a show, at an amphitheater/bowl & the headlining band was setting up for soundcheck. The guitarist had 2 JCM800 100w full stacks. He dimed everything. Right after he turned on, he yelled;

"Make sure the guitars are turned up loud, that's all this band's got!"

The bass player, who seemed real nice, came up to me & asked if I could work w/ him a bit, because his amp was having issues & he didn't want to crank it too hard, so, he asked if If give him some help/re-enforcement. To that, I had no problem...

In the little amphitheater/bowl, I couldn't dial the guitar out & he was already blaring over everything else, probably 10db louder, w/ the band up at full volume...

During the show, the singer, kept saying "more monitors", "more vocals in the monitors", etc. The guitar drowned him out, no matter how loud I had him in the monitors. It finally got to the point, where the singer was restricted to sitting on the drum riser, or else he'd feedback...

We tried to tell the guitarist to simply turn down & everybody's life would be easier, but, he insisted that he needed more guitar, not less. The rest of the band would not stand up to him, so, they signed their own fate.

The guitar was too loud, uncomfortably loud - in your face. Vocals weren't heard very well, & the vocalists, throat gave out after 1 song, because he was screaming at the top of his lungs, only not to be heard, by monitors that were turned up so loud, that he could not take 1 step from the drum riser, or everyone would be subject to the loudest squeal...

Why people get so big headed & do not want to work w/ their band, or the soundguy is beyond me...

I mean, there is no way, the guitarist heard the drummer, bass, or vocals, as he stood right in front of 2 full stacks on 10, when nobody else in the band could hear themselves...



I posted a video clip of the band, w/ the guitarist saying something about, "all you've got to do is crank everything on 10, & it doesn't matter if you can play or not!"...

I've had similar guitar stories of mixing bands, where I've had people in the audience tell me (or ask) to turn the guitars down, because they are just way too loud. I tell them, I can't, I have no control over the guitars, that's all them onstage, they are off, in the system...

Oh well, what can you do?

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Oh God, I've seen that play out so many times...

Actually happened on a bill I was on not too long ago. The guy in the band just before us had a 30th Anni head and 4x12 and was so stupid LOUD that he was drowning everything out. It actually was painful to stand in front of the stage. As a result, the band sounded like shit, monitors were on the brink of constant squealing (and sounded godawful) and balance was totally off.
While my SV20H and EVH 2x12 was sitting just behind his halfstack, and my bass player, soundguy and I were joking about how that looked ("Honey, I shrunk the guitar rig !"), to which our soundguy laughed and told me "yeah, well, you'll be sounding WAY better".
And guess what, as soon and we came in, audience flooded towards the stage, people were super into it, and at the end of the show, they all were like "man, you guys sounded SO good, you sound like a record", "man, you had such an INCREDIBLE tone". We got a few more gigs booked as a result.
And I was loud enough to hear myself perfectly over the drums and get controlled feedback without even trying. Just not crazy loud.

So yeah, thanks to these guys for making us look so good in comparison, I guess...

 

[Benny2112]

As much as I hate to say it, I was "that guy" back in the day. Plexi on 10 and wouldn't turn down. Mic in front of my cabinet, but it's not even on and I'm still drowning everyone out.

Thankfully I've learned a thing or two since then. That was why getting some control over the volume of my SV20H was so important to me. I needed to be able to make volume adjustments for different venues/situations. Like our gig last Saturday night. The soundman asked me to turn down and I was able to oblige, and my tone and the band sounded fantastic.

 

[Brett336]

Sorry. JHS Little Black Amp Box. Passive volume control that goes in the effects loop.

Nice cheap option to drop volume. But it also substantially drops the signal (drive) to the phase inverter tube. That is where most of the magic occurs in the plexi sound that people speak of.

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Nice cheap option to drop volume. But it also substantially drops the signal (drive) to the phase inverter tube. That is where most of the magic occurs in the plexi sound that people speak of.

That's why it works fine for a gigging player that wants to drop a few dBs to adjust for the room, not so much for an at-home player that wants to bring the amp to TV levels.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

in my buddy's modded metal face JMP, his is modded for high (real high) gain, but, the guy that modded it, dropped the signal going into the PI, then boosted it afterward, so that you get less PI compression & more big bottle sound.

Not to say that, w/ the high gain pre-amp, it's not driving the PI good, but, his amp is unique, in that it is such a fire breather, but not very compressed, like most high gain amp's, even though this thing probably has 5 x's the gain of the JVM...

 

[marshallmellowed]

I think there's 2 scenarios that can apply to the OP's original post, one is for live use, and the other, for personal enjoyment. I play through my big amps at home for personal enjoyment, and as a benchmark for the "ultimate" guitar tone and playing experience (IMO). For live playing, these days, you don't even need an amp, or a guitar cab for that matter. Running everything direct through a PA is the only way to go live (IMO). I play through an Axe Fx live, and hear my guitar and vocals through a 12" powered coaxial monitor, and it's all that's needed (and sounds great). No need to worry about stage volumes from an amp & cab, or a sound guy telling you you're too loud, and you can have your guitar blasting right in your face as loud as you'd ever want it. So, it amuses me to keep reading these posts about how you don't need a 100w amp for gigs these days, when the reality is, you don't need a 20w amp, or an amp at all. The Axe FX, live through a PA, sounds every bit as good as a real tube amp (or I wouldn't be using it), and is far more flexible than a pedalboard>amp>cab in a live setting. At home, I play what I enjoy most, and for me, that's usually a 100 Marshall, or the Axe Fx (for practice purposes).

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I know a night club owner who's got a sense of humor. I should ask him to book a band that likes to play LOUD and advertise for them as "STUPID LOUD LIVE MUSIC NIGHT. Bring your earplugs. Forget small talk." on their LED marquee. See if in fact loud music is an attractor or if it repels crowds...when it's known in advance. My belief is that lots of people want to hear it cranked up. But they're not the same people who want to engage in small talk over a mousy quiet little 3 piece band off in the corner.

 

[marshallmellowed]

I know a night club owner who's got a sense of humor. I should ask him to book a band that likes to play LOUD and advertise for them as "STUPID LOUD LIVE MUSIC NIGHT. Bring your earplugs. Forget small talk." on their LED marquee. See if in fact loud music is an attractor or if it repels crowds...when it's known in advance. My belief is that lots of people want to hear it cranked up. But they're not the same people who want to engage in small talk over a mousy quiet little 3 piece band off in the corner.

I agree, that would be interesting, but I think it would have to be an outdoor gig. Nobody wants loud inside most venues these days, most are just too small.

 

[Benny2112]

I think there's 2 scenarios that can apply to the OP's original post, one is for live use, and the other, for personal enjoyment. I play through my big amps at home for personal enjoyment, and as a benchmark for the "ultimate" guitar tone and playing experience (IMO). For live playing, these days, you don't even need an amp, or a guitar cab for that matter. Running everything direct through a PA is the only way to go live (IMO). I play through an Axe Fx live, and hear my guitar and vocals through a 12" powered coaxial monitor, and it's all that's needed (and sounds great). No need to worry about stage volumes from an amp & cab, or a sound guy telling you you're too loud, and you can have your guitar blasting right in your face as loud as you'd ever want it. So, it amuses me to keep reading these posts about how you don't need a 100w amp for gigs these days, when the reality is, you don't need a 20w amp, or an amp at all. The Axe FX, live through a PA, sounds every bit as good as a real tube amp (or I wouldn't be using it), and is far more flexible than a pedalboard>amp>cab in a live setting. At home, I play what I enjoy most, and for me, that's usually a 100 Marshall, or the Axe Fx (for practice purposes).

I know what you mean here. I have a lot of friends that have gone that route (or similar) for live rigs and they love them. Though most of them are playing covers. I'm playing all originals though and have worked hard to craft my own sound. I'm not sure I would still be able to achieve that using modelers. I don't need a ton of flexibility either, as I'm not trying to cover different tones for different songs. Plus I'm pretty happy with my current setup.

 

[ichocobo]

I think there's 2 scenarios that can apply to the OP's original post, one is for live use, and the other, for personal enjoyment. I play through my big amps at home for personal enjoyment, and as a benchmark for the "ultimate" guitar tone and playing experience (IMO). For live playing, these days, you don't even need an amp, or a guitar cab for that matter. Running everything direct through a PA is the only way to go live (IMO). I play through an Axe Fx live, and hear my guitar and vocals through a 12" powered coaxial monitor, and it's all that's needed (and sounds great). No need to worry about stage volumes from an amp & cab, or a sound guy telling you you're too loud, and you can have your guitar blasting right in your face as loud as you'd ever want it. So, it amuses me to keep reading these posts about how you don't need a 100w amp for gigs these days, when the reality is, you don't need a 20w amp, or an amp at all. The Axe FX, live through a PA, sounds every bit as good as a real tube amp (or I wouldn't be using it), and is far more flexible than a pedalboard>amp>cab in a live setting. At home, I play what I enjoy most, and for me, that's usually a 100 Marshall, or the Axe Fx (for practice purposes).

I'm not gig monster by any means, so take my opinion with a grain of salt
, but there's a middle ground that I find interesting.
You could hook your amp to a torpedo captor x and use same monitors as with the axe fx. And you have your amp and pedals to tinker instead of the axe fx panel... You could do both things in fact, use the captor to go to PA and hook a real cab to monitor yourself.
Best of both worlds IMO!

 

[FutureProf88]

When working with sound guys, I've had it go both ways. I've dealt with FOH engineers who basically wanted conversational volume onstage, where the drums were the loudest thing there. At that point I'm like this is how it is - you're the engineer so work with it.

I've also had guys come up when they see me rolling the 412 onstage and ask how or if I want it mic'd. As a 3 piece we can get away with a lot that larger bands can't, and I've had FOH guys tell me if you want to set the volume and go unmic'd I can work everything off of that, but if they show that they want to work with me I'm more than willing to show them that I'm attenuating the rig and that the cabinet is really just for visuals and to be my monitor. I tell them that we can run the line out from the attenuator or mic the cab, and however they need that cabinet angled to keep it out of the rest of their mic traffic to just let me know.

Bottom line is if FOH wants to work with us I definitely want to work with them. We can make each other's night really great or we can make it really difficult. What FOH guys do need to remember is that the musicians in that band are the musicians. Whether they play or not, that's not what they are doing that evening. They are mixing. The musicians onstage need to remember that the FOH guy is the engineer. Even if they are familiar with sound engineering, that's not what they are doing that evening. By far my band's best sounding shows have been when we have a good working relationship with the engineer we're working with that night, where he asks us what we want from him, and we ask him what he needs from us.

 

[marshallmellowed]

I know what you mean here. I have a lot of friends that have gone that route (or similar) for live rigs and they love them. Though most of them are playing covers. I'm playing all originals though and have worked hard to craft my own sound. I'm not sure I would still be able to achieve that using modelers. I don't need a ton of flexibility either, as I'm not trying to cover different tones for different songs. Plus I'm pretty happy with my current setup.

If you're happy with your rig, and it does everything you need, you're there. Our cover band is all over the place, song-wise, and I need a lot of different sounds (think going from Ringo Star, to Judas Priest, to early Van Halen, to Metallica). With the Axe Fx, I have a preset for each song, and several "sounds" within each preset (Clean, Clean+Chorus, Drive, Lead 1, Lead 2, Lead +Harmonizer...). As much as I love my tube amps, I have no desire to try that with an amp and pedalboard.

 

[marshallmellowed]

I'm not gig monster by any means, so take my opinion with a grain of salt
, but there's a middle ground that I find interesting.
You could hook your amp to a torpedo captor x and use same monitors as with the axe fx. And you have your amp and pedals to tinker instead of the axe fx panel... You could do both things in fact, use the captor to go to PA and hook a real cab to monitor yourself.
Best of both worlds IMO!

You could definitely do all of that, lots of options.

 

[marshallmellowed]

When working with sound guys, I've had it go both ways. I've dealt with FOH engineers who basically wanted conversational volume onstage, where the drums were the loudest thing there. At that point I'm like this is how it is - you're the engineer so work with it.

I've also had guys come up when they see me rolling the 412 onstage and ask how or if I want it mic'd. As a 3 piece we can get away with a lot that larger bands can't, and I've had FOH guys tell me if you want to set the volume and go unmic'd I can work everything off of that, but if they show that they want to work with me I'm more than willing to show them that I'm attenuating the rig and that the cabinet is really just for visuals and to be my monitor. I tell them that we can run the line out from the attenuator or mic the cab, and however they need that cabinet angled to keep it out of the rest of their mic traffic to just let me know.

Bottom line is if FOH wants to work with us I definitely want to work with them. We can make each other's night really great or we can make it really difficult. What FOH guys do need to remember is that the musicians in that band are the musicians. Whether they play or not, that's not what they are doing that evening. They are mixing. The musicians onstage need to remember that the FOH guy is the engineer. Even if they are familiar with sound engineering, that's not what they are doing that evening. By far my band's best sounding shows have been when we have a good working relationship with the engineer we're working with that night, where he asks us what we want from him, and we ask him what he needs from us.

We run our own sound for 95% of our gigs (I'm our "sound guy"), so we typically don't have to deal with a sound guy. Most venues in our area don't want to pay for a dedicated sound guy, and we don't need to pay someone to get good sound. Last time we played at a venue that had a dedicated sound guy, he was good, and just walked up to me and said "here's the XLR for your Axe Fx", and it was smooth sailing all night. It was definitely a lot less work for me, as all I had to worry about was setting up my guitar rig.

 

[Benny2112]

If you're happy with your rig, and it does everything you need, you're there. Our cover band is all over the place, song-wise, and I need a lot of different sounds (think going from Ringo Star, to Judas Priest, to early Van Halen, to Metallica). With the Axe Fx, I have a preset for each song, and several "sounds" within each preset (Clean, Clean+Chorus, Drive, Lead 1, Lead 2, Lead +Harmonizer...). As much as I love my tube amps, I have no desire to try that with an amp and pedalboard.

Yes, I don't think I've ever been happier with my setup. I have the SV20H, a small 2x12 cab and small pedalboard. It's a small stage footprint, easy to haul, easy to set up/tear down and gives me huge, fantastic tone. The JHS LBAB also gives me volume flexibility for different venues.

We're in different situations. I can definitely see where covering all that ground would be much easier with the rig you described and a lot of my friends in cover bands are using a similar setup. For me everything is variations of a theme and I can make my sound adjustments on the fly via pedals, guitar volume, pickup selection and pick attack.

 

[marshallmellowed]

Yes, I don't think I've ever been happier with my setup. I have the SV20H, a small 2x12 cab and small pedalboard. It's a small stage footprint, easy to haul, easy to set up/tear down and gives me huge, fantastic tone. The JHS LBAB also gives me volume flexibility for different venues.

We're in different situations. I can definitely see where covering all that ground would be much easier with the rig you described and a lot of my friends in cover bands are using a similar setup. For me everything is variations of a theme and I can make my sound adjustments on the fly via pedals, guitar volume, pickup selection and pick attack.

Yeah, I'd need a huge pedalboard, and be tap dancing on multiple pedals all night, where I can do it all with one button press using the Axe Fx, it's the cleanest approach. Funny thing is, even if I was playing the same type of songs (tribute band...) all night, I'd probably still use the Axe Fx.

 

[MullardFillmore]

Budda Twinmaster + Weber Mass attenuator