Love vintage Marshalls, not into the newer amps

[6StringMoFo]

You are “sure Jimmy Page was getting slammed by the traditionalist when he changed the way we use amps, as did EVH, Hendrix, and Jim Marshall himself when he created the first Marshall.” What traditionalist where? Some of these people are the pioneers of rock music, they didn’t break tradition any where. They didn’t take the guitar amp and do laundry in it, they played guitar through them!

Then you come off with the cork sniffing crap, yet you are touting the virtues of your DSL; who’s doing the cork sniffing? And I’d like to compare my 1968 Model 1987 50watt to your Green channel and see who produces the “Classic Marshall Sound”? Then after everyone on forum votes who has the “Classic Marshall Sound”, then we’ll put to vote on which amp the members of the forum would want to own. And on this forum the DSL seem to be the most issue prone amp in the (Workbench) section?

“Epic albums” What you mentioned were amps mostly made after 1983, what there were no Epic Albums before that? And you negated to mention the Marshalls that changed it all in the beginning: JTM 45, The Bluesbreaker, Model 1959 Superlead. So I guess John Mayall’s Blues Breakers (with Eric Clapton), Cream Disraeli Gears, The Jimi Hendrix Experience (Are you experienced) aren’t Epic Albums?

Tell you what if you offered me 10 DSL’s in trade for my Model 1987 50 watt I’d tell you “no” faster then shit goes through a goose.

Oh and that’s my two cents worth!

There you have it, I'm not allowed to think my DSL is a good Marshall. Try reading post without colouring it with your own opinions mate.

Anyone who doesn't keep the status quote gets slammed. You think all those blues guys looked at Hendrix with the same aww we do?

Every pioneer gets looked at as a Kook until their dream is realised and accepted.

As for the reliability issue on DSL's, maybe that's cause there are more DSL's in service than any other Marshall amp.

As I mention before. Good for you that you found an amp that sings the sounds u hear and feel inside. Don't diss me cause my voice sounds like a DSL.

Why the hell does everyone get so butt hurt?

 

[janarn]

You're right. There's a lot of DSL owners.
And also a lot of DSL owners that knows that their amps are as good as a Plexi.
But they have never owned a Plexi.

 

[Ken]

You're right. There's a lot of DSL owners.
And also a lot of DSL owners that knows that their amps are as good as a Plexi.
But they have never owned a Plexi.

I don't own a plexi; I've played through a Super Lead.

The DSL is just as good but way different. The SL sounded best when cranked and using the guitar volume gave a great amount of control over the distrotion. This is similar to the DSL green channel except the distortion is of a different quality. It's hard to put into words but it's the preamp tubes vs. power amp tubes. I will say the DSL gets closer to the SL than a SL can get to a DSL though. The DSL gain on tap is huge.

The worst way to play a DSL is like a SL: turn up the volume to 10 and use the gain as the volume. Unless you play the amp full out, it's not as pleasing a sound as putting the gain at least half way up and using the volume knob. The DSL needs the gain dialed in at least to 5 for its best tone; this is on both channels.

On the SL however, everything at 10 sounded magic. Driving its power tubes is that Marshall signature sound the 70's metal bands got. One's style of music is really what's "best"... I wish I had a plexi for jamming, but it would be frustrating for me to use for my band's music. Just not enough gain.

Ken

 

[6StringMoFo]

anyone wanna put their 2 cents in on the 800, and 900? I don't have either but I'd love to get an 800

 

[MajorNut1967]

I don't own a plexi; I've played through a Super Lead.

The DSL is just as good but way different. The SL sounded best when cranked and using the guitar volume gave a great amount of control over the distrotion. This is similar to the DSL green channel except the distortion is of a different quality. It's hard to put into words but it's the preamp tubes vs. power amp tubes. I will say the DSL gets closer to the SL than a SL can get to a DSL though. The DSL gain on tap is huge.

The worst way to play a DSL is like a SL: turn up the volume to 10 and use the gain as the volume. Unless you play the amp full out, it's not as pleasing a sound as putting the gain at least half way up and using the volume knob. The DSL needs the gain dialed in at least to 5 for its best tone; this is on both channels.

On the SL however, everything at 10 sounded magic. Driving its power tubes is that Marshall signature sound the 70's metal bands got. One's style of music is really what's "best"... I wish I had a plexi for jamming, but it would be frustrating for me to use for my band's music. Just not enough gain.

Ken

Ok Ken you’ve spoken on the attributes of the so called “Plexi” era Marshall SL. And you’ve expounded on DSL and that you like you r DSL. And here we have more kudus on the green channel being similar to the Plexi sound.

Ok you know that I am old fart about the newer Marshall Amps, but last night
I went got the DSL schematic and looked it over. This amps is transistor & IC laden what you have is basically is a hybrid tube amp with a few distortion pedals built in. So you have all the tons of gain you could want. Now you said,” except the distortion is of a different quality. It's hard to put into words,,,” I believe this is why, “The more fragile harmonics tend to survive in a vacuum tube, where as they seem to get squashed in the crystalline Solid State devices. Electrons survive better in free-space vacuum, then in the harsh semi conducting Solid State device. It boils down to basic physics. So maybe this is why you and a lot of the other DSL guys have trouble explaining the difference in tone, it is the fact that the amp is or may sound very solid state like. Wilder describes to me that the DSL sounds, “Muddy, farty, fizzy...”

That being the case then why not just put a couple of stomp boxes in front of your Plexi or Plexi reissue and have the all the walls of gain you need, but yet still have the availability of pure tube harmonics also? And if you need a FX loop have Wilder can put one in.

 

[Ken]

Ok Ken you’ve spoken on the attributes of the so called “Plexi” era Marshall SL. And you’ve expounded on DSL and that you like you r DSL. And here we have more kudus on the green channel being similar to the Plexi sound.

Ok you know that I am old fart about the newer Marshall Amps, but last night
I went got the DSL schematic and looked it over. This amps is transistor & IC laden what you have is basically is a hybrid tube amp with a few distortion pedals built in. So you have all the tons of gain you could want. Now you said,” except the distortion is of a different quality. It's hard to put into words,,,” I believe this is why, “The more fragile harmonics tend to survive in a vacuum tube, where as they seem to get squashed in the crystalline Solid State devices. Electrons survive better in free-space vacuum, then in the harsh semi conducting Solid State device. It boils down to basic physics. So maybe this is why you and a lot of the other DSL guys have trouble explaining the difference in tone, it is the fact that the amp is or may sound very solid state like. Wilder describes to me that the DSL sounds, “Muddy, farty, fizzy...”

That being the case then why not just put a couple of stomp boxes in front of your Plexi or Plexi reissue and have the all the walls of gain you need, but yet still have the availability of pure tube harmonics also? And if you need a FX loop have Wilder can put one in.

Wilder is not a fan of the DSL's like I'm not a fan of the 900 DR's. I can make the DSL fizzy too; just push that button on the red channel. The problem with the DSL is it has so much variety you can make it sound crappy as well as brilliant. I can make a 900 DR sound okay too. Just not as nice as a DSL.

As for the schematic of the DSL, it's a tube path with lots of SS for the features. 6100's have clipping diodes yet people love them, as with the 900 DR and later 800's. I play with my ears, and to me the DSL sounds great, regardless of how it's done.

No, it's not a plexi. It's not supposed to be. Yes, put a box on a plexi and maybe it's better than a DSL, but you can put a box on a DSL too and it won't be "fizzy".

Ken

 

[jcmjmp]

...but last night
I went got the DSL schematic and looked it over. This amps is transistor & IC laden what you have is basically is a hybrid tube amp with a few distortion pedals built in. So you have all the tons of gain you could want. Now you said,” except the distortion is of a different quality.

Major, please have a better look at the DSL schematics.

When the reverb and effects loop are not engaged, the DSL's signal path is ALL TUBE. Not 1 single solid state device in the way. Have a close look at how the relays engage/dis-engage the loop and reverb.

The distortion is of a different quality because it comes mainly from the preamp in a master volume amplifier.

Wilder describes to me that the DSL sounds, “Muddy, farty, fizzy...”

That being the case then why not just put a couple of stomp boxes in front of your Plexi or Plexi reissue and have the all the walls of gain you need, but yet still have the availability of pure tube harmonics also? And if you need a FX loop have Wilder can put one in.

You know, I'm with Ken on this one. Depending on the settings and speakers, I can make any amp fizzy, muddy, farty. I don't know why Wilder says this but if that's the way he hears it, then that's the way it is. Of course, I could say the same thing of a JTM45.

Have you ever heard Jeff Beck through a DSL? Or Gary Moore? Great tone IMO and nowhere near Wilder's description.

In terms of harmonics, solid state clipping diodes will actually give you more of them. Just sayin'...

 

[MajorNut1967]

Major, please have a better look at the DSL schematics.

When the reverb and effects loop are not engaged, the DSL's signal path is ALL TUBE. Not 1 single solid state device in the way. Have a close look at how the relays engage/dis-engage the loop and reverb.

The distortion is of a different quality because it comes mainly from the preamp in a master volume amplifier.



You know, I'm with Ken on this one. Depending on the settings and speakers, I can make any amp fizzy, muddy, farty. I don't know why Wilder says this but if that's the way he hears it, then that's the way it is. Of course, I could say the same thing of a JTM45.

Have you ever heard Jeff Beck through a DSL? Or Gary Moore? Great tone IMO and nowhere near Wilder's description.

In terms of harmonics, solid state clipping diodes will actually give you more of them. Just sayin'...

Ok are you looking for a taunting? What I would like you to do is take your DSL remove all the transistors, ICs, LDR’s and the Clipping Diodes. Then plug into your amp turn it on, disengage the FX & Reverb and tell me if it produces any sound?

Ok so now you are adding in variables to why your amp sounds fizzy, muddy, and farty. Wilder said what he said in general, he didn’t go twisting knobs to purposely make the amp sound like shit; more over he was trying to get it to sound its best and said that. And of course you tit a JTM 45 is going to sound flubby & mushy, it’s got a tube rectifier and low value filter cap and is basically a copy of a 1959 Bassman.

I’ve seen Jeff Beck 9 times in my life and none of those did I see him with a DSL. It was either 50 or 100 watt four holers. I’ve only seen Gary Moore twice and once on DVD and he was using a 4 holer, a 2203 and a VM.

Ok you explain to me and everyone else how a Diode adds Harmonics, do you truly know what a harmonic is? Young man a Diode is a Semiconductor do you know what that term means?

 

[jcmjmp]

Ok are you looking for a taunting? ....
The distortion is different because your amp uses clipper diodes, just like a Fender M-80 SS amp.

Nope - I hate to say it, but you're wrong! A DSL does not use diodes to generate more distortion. I repeat - a DSL does not use diodes to generate more distortion.

The LDRs are in fact part of the signal path, but only the resistive portion is. You could remove the opamps and still have sound and remove power to the LDRs and still have sound. Like I said, the opamps (ICs) are part of the effect loop and reverb driver. The transistors you see are part of the channel switching and they're used as switches.

I am now prepare for the wrath of the MajorNut!

And no - I am NOT looking for a taunting. I'd like to keep things respectful, courteous and maybe a little facetious. Cool?

Ok so now you are adding in variables to why your amp sounds fizzy, muddy, and farty. Wilder said what he said in general, he didn’t go twisting knobs to purposely make the amp sound like shit; more over he was trying to get it to sound its best and said that.

Meh, whatever. We won't agree on this, that's all. Wilder said this... Wilder said that... Are you his fanboy?

I’ve seen Jeff Beck 9 times in my life and none of those did I see him with a DSL. It was either 50 or 100 watt four holers. I’ve only seen Gary Moore twice and once on DVD and he was using a 4 holer, a 2203 and a VM.

Cool. I only saw Jeff Beck once. Great guitarist, great show, great tone. He was playing a 4 holer when I saw him (2009)

Ok you explain to me and everyone else how a Diode adds Harmonics, do you truly know what a harmonic is? Young man a Diode is a Semiconductor do you know what that term means?

A squared off wave has more harmonics. Its math and it can be measured with a spectrum analyser. Do you know what a spectrum analyzer is?

A tube won't chop off a sine wave like a diode does. You can see that on an oscilloscope. Do you know what an oscilloscope is?

Hope this helps!

 

[MajorNut1967]

Nope - I hate to say it, but you're wrong! A DSL does not use diodes to generate more distortion. I repeat - a DSL does not use diodes to generate more distortion.

The LDRs are in fact part of the signal path, but only the resistive portion is. You could remove the opamps and still have sound and remove power to the LDRs and still have sound. Like I said, the opamps (ICs) are part of the effect loop and reverb driver. The transistors you see are part of the channel switching and they're used as switches.

I am now prepare for the wrath of the MajorNut!

And no - I am NOT looking for a taunting. I'd like to keep things respectful, courteous and maybe a little facetious. Cool?

Meh, whatever. We won't agree on this, that's all. Wilder said this... Wilder said that... Are you his fanboy?

Cool. I only saw Jeff Beck once. Great guitarist, great show, great tone. He was playing a 4 holer when I saw him (2009)

A squared off wave has more harmonics. Its math and it can be measured with a spectrum analyser. Do you know what a spectrum analyzer is?

A tube won't chop off a sine wave like a diode does. You can see that on an oscilloscope. Do you know what an oscilloscope is?

Hope this helps!

I know the DSL doesn't have clippers I was just waiting for you to go bonkers about it, but that was maybe going to far so retracted it, didn't want any DSL feelings getting hurt comparing it to a Fender M-80.

Sounds like you are a little envious of Wilder? I'm not particularly a fanboy, But he is a good kid, respectful and willing to learn and also doesn't think he knows it all. But here the reality, it could have been Joey or Marty that I talked to about the DSL, but it happened to Wilder. Boy now you really look envious of Wilder.

I notice you tend to inset foot in mouth quite a bit! Remember you went on about Beck & Moore using DSL's, yet you confess that times you saw them they weren't using DSL's?

Umm and yes thank you for the help but you always forget that I am the one who has the bachelors in Electronic Engineering and yes I do know what a Oscilloscope is and an audio spectral analyzer is. And you always forget that I am almost 50 and they were still teaching tube theory in school when I was there.

Oh please don't prepare for my wrath, I'm hurt I thought you would feel sorry for me! See my pet monkey died of Dengue fever last Sunday and I have no one to slap around temporarily and you are the next best thing. Can ya feel the love?

Oh heres a little one for you: at 25 HZ what are the Harmonics of the freq?

 

[Viking62]

Yeah, I'm new to this forum. I recently acquired a '79 JMP modded by Todd Langner in the '90s and it's become an irreplaceable part of my sound. Ridiculous amounts of gain, but still perfect definition, totally tight and nothing fizzy/buzzy about it at all (I'm a fairly eclectic musician, playing progressive death metal, punk rock, blues, pshych and more ... at that's just on guitar. I also play tenor saxophone, blues harp, drums, bass and I sing). Anyhow, I use the same amp for every style I play, although I do rotate in my Mesa Rectoverb once in a while, ironically for lower gain stuff and cleans.

I've owned other Marshall amps, including a stock JMP and a JCM 900 that I biased for El34s and was very happy with the tones I got. But I've got to say ... I've played just about every modern Marshall amp (DSL and TSL, Vintage Modern, Haze 40, JVM) and I'm not a fan. Seriously. If I had to play a modern tube amp, Marshall would probably be my last choice right now. Of course after 20 years of playing I realize that tone is more in the fingers than in the instrument and other gear). Does anybody else here feel the same about newer Marshalls?

Well done with the JMP, great hear someone rave about this amp, I had one and stupidly sold it, kicking myself ever since

 

[Viking62]

Aside from the technical 'dick measuring' going on between JCMJMP and MajorNut.
The thing is, its such a personal and open ended discussion when it comes to preferrable sounds and obviously hugely dependent on the individuals ear and what he/she wants to achieve.
Personally I do prefer the older amps and can certainly understand where the propheticality named 'AnyLaughs' who started the thread is coming from.
ps Was most interesting reading technical sparring going on with those two..

 

[andylaughs]

Well done with the JMP, great hear someone rave about this amp, I had one and stupidly sold it, kicking myself ever since

Just got back from the practice studio playing cranked through my full stack ... fuck, I don't EVER get tired of this amp! It's definitely not going anywhere. My long-term plan is to find a second JMP/early JCM 800 (practically identical circuitry) and have Skip Simmons analyze and copy the design of the mod, then keep one head at home in case the other ever gets ripped off. It'll cost me a fortune, but will be well worth the long-term investment.

 

[jcmjmp]

I know the DSL doesn't have clippers I was just waiting for you to go bonkers about it

Are you dissapointed?

Oh please don't prepare for my wrath, I'm hurt I thought you would feel sorry for me! See my pet monkey died of Dengue fever last Sunday and I have no one to slap around temporarily and you are the next best thing. Can ya feel the love?

LOL! Sorry to hear about your monkey. I'm the next best thing to your monkey? Hmmm. Not sure I see that as a good thing... but I think you mean well.

Oh heres a little one for you: at 25 HZ what are the Harmonics of the freq?

You're always trying to test me, aren't you?

Its like I have to build my cred with you.

Harmonics happen at multiples of the base frequency but the number & amplitude of them will differ depending on the type of input signal. The 2nd harmonic is always at 2x the base frequency (aka fundamental). This is something we learned when analyzing FM and AM multiplexing.

Anything else you want to test me on?


Back on topic - I played my '83 JCM800 yesterday. It was fun. Great tones and I love the bass. I went back and forth between it and the DSL50. The DSL50 is more polite. That's the only way I can put it.

 

[custom53]

Yeah, I'm new to this forum. I recently acquired a '79 JMP modded by Todd Langner in the '90s and it's become an irreplaceable part of my sound. Ridiculous amounts of gain, but still perfect definition, totally tight and nothing fizzy/buzzy about it at all (I'm a fairly eclectic musician, playing progressive death metal, punk rock, blues, pshych and more ... at that's just on guitar. I also play tenor saxophone, blues harp, drums, bass and I sing).

What...!?!?!?! No xylophone....!?!?!?

JMP's are the tits....

 

[6StringMoFo]

talk talk Put up some vids,

FTR I dont care how or why beer taste good, I just appreciate that it does
So does my DSL

 

[MajorNut1967]

Are you dissapointed?
LOL! Sorry to hear about your monkey. I'm the next best thing to your monkey? Hmmm. Not sure I see that as a good thing... but I think you mean well. You're always trying to test me, aren't you?Its like I have to build my cred with you. Harmonics happen at multiples of the base frequency but the number & amplitude of them will differ depending on the type of input signal. The 2nd harmonic is always at 2x the base frequency (aka fundamental). This is something we learned when analyzing FM and AM multiplexing.Anything else you want to test me on?


Back on topic - I played my '83 JCM800 yesterday. It was fun. Great tones and I love the bass. I went back and forth between it and the DSL50. The DSL50 is more polite. That's the only way I can put it.

Oh I'm not disappointed in you. And hey you better take any sort of kudos from me you can. You don't build and credit with me. What you can't add by 25's? You did good young man, now Mum wants you to clean your room.

Ain't the 83's some mean bastards, they sound great! They'll leave your trouser flapping in the wind. The DSL is more polite, I'm not much into polite; have you noticed?

 

[jcmjmp]

What you can't add by 25's?

Ain't the 83's some mean bastards, they sound great! They'll leave your trouser flapping in the wind. The DSL is more polite, I'm not much into polite; have you noticed?

25Hz harmonics are 50, 75, 100, 125, 150, 175 and so on. Multiples of the base. Add, mulitply.... its all the same.

1983 was a great year, not only for JCM800s. Some classic albums came out that year. Albums I still listen to. Def Leppard - Pyromania, Motley Crue - Shout At the devil, Van Halen - 1984, Triumph - Never Surrender.

 

[MajorNut1967]

25Hz harmonics are 50, 75, 100, 125, 150, 175 and so on. Multiples of the base. Add, mulitply.... its all the same.

1983 was a great year, not only for JCM800s. Some classic albums came out that year. Albums I still listen to. Def Leppard - Pyromania, Motley Crue - Shout At the devil, Van Halen - 1984, Triumph - Never Surrender.

A+ bro! See just help the other lads learn.

Oh and too old, was never into those bands or songs. I'm from a different era.

 

[6StringMoFo]

Willy!