Marshall 1936, vintage VS new

[maltone]

I know this has been discussed here:
http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=66011 but it's buried in that thread. I want to know more about the dimensions of the older 1936's vs the current production ones.

The new ones are:
Height: 23.62"
Width: 29.53"
Depth: 12.2"

But what dimensions were the vintage "thinner" ones. I can't find the info anywhere online. There a more than a few people who think the thinner ones sounded better, tighter, less bassy. What size were they?

Thanks.

 

[Blueslicks]

http://www.marshallforum.com/showthread.php?t=53722

Infos in the link.

I've tried both and I prefer the bigger size with my plexis.

Here's one of mine.

80's JCM800 modified with levant tolex, S&P grill, Ply back panel and Creamback 65's...

 

[johnfv]

I have owned both and prefer the deeper one, not only because of the better low end but also the side handles.

 

[Adrian R]

80's JCM800 modified with levant tolex, S&P grill, Ply back panel and Creamback 65's...[/QUOTE]

This is a good idea. The newer Marshall cabs...like those made post 1980< have MDF and or particle board rear panels. As a result, and of course imo do NOT sound as good.

My 2005 1960 slant cab was put together in a hastened fashion...poor back brace, and a particle board rear panel. Last year a friend of mine helped me not only fix the brace, but constructed an entirely new rear panel with 5/8" baltic birch. The difference in performance was significant. The cab just sounded tighter with better response across the entire frequency spectrum.

I compared it to my 1986 JCM 800 4x12 slant cab with the SAME speakers. The difference is obvious. I like the sound of my 05' cab WAY better...although the stock 800 cab still sounds good. The 800 cab has an MDF rear panel.

This weekend I will be doing the same thing with my 800 cab...that is making a new rear panel with baltic birch.

It definitely makes a difference.

Notice the attachments...before paint and after paint..new back..LOVE IT!!

 

[maltone]

Much thanks guys. I appreciate the info. I went to that link, and found this post:

My 1982 800 series 1936 is the same cab dimensions.
It was the last year they made that design.
It is exactly 23" High, 29" Wide, 9" Deep

Please bare with me, but I need some serious help to nail this down, and it's somewhat involved for me.

I have a MESA 2X12 Rectifer with V30's from the early 90's.
The cab is on indefinite loan to me, and I can buy it anytime I want.
I've grown accustomed to the V30's hyper mid expressive tone
- that almost cocked wah tone. I actually call it the cat YEOWL, as I have here before.
And I LOVE that honky sound.

My only gripe about the V30, is that the low end is too extended,
boomy at times, puffy, not crisp enough.
I've discovered I love super crisp, detailed, razor sharp mid/upper mids.
I always considered changing out the speakers for my own.
So, I made the plunge a week ago, spoke with Jim Seavall at Scumback,
and he recommended the Scumback M75-PVC's, rated at 65W each, 35 oz magnet.

I put them in a few days ago, and was astonished at the clarity,
the pop of notes in the strings, the ability to hear every note in a chord.
However, they're a bit too vintage for my taste. I found that the mids
were a bit spongy - compared the V30's hard hitting "PEEEOWNG" kind of mid tone,
and that upper mid nasal bite that I love wasn't there.

I figure you can always dial mids back a bit, but it they're not there to begin with,
good luck trying to put them into the signal.
The speaker plays a huge role i've realized in that chain,
as does the pickup, and strings etc..

To make a long story shorter, Jim said that the MESA
recto cabs are actually darker than say a "vintage"
sized cabinet like a 1936, constructed the same way.
It's just so hard for a basement hack like me to
differentiate between what's causing what in the tone,
the speakers? The cabinet?
I don't have another cab to load anything into, so I can't figure it out.

So that brought me back here. In a perfect world, what I want is the mid, upper mid cut and zing of the V30, but with a tighter, more precise, less WOOFY low end - if that's possible. Keep in mind, I do have a 2006 DSL-100, Joey Mods were done to the letter,
and a new ClassicTone OT, and 3H choke - that helped clarity and punch IMMENSELY.

But, maybe it's that DEEP switch resonance control - I always have it on,
but turn the bass down to about 3-4 usually, treble up to 7, mids up the 7, and the presence usually at half or a bit less.

So I either hold onto these Scumbacks which are great, but not quite mean enough sounding for me, sell them, or return them to Jim with a restocking fee - I'll just have to deal with that. Take my chances on another speaker, or just simply wait to get my hands on a 1936 baltic cab, with whatever dimensions you guys think will stiffen up the low end of the V30's,
and make the mids even more crisp. And that's about where I am with this.

I LOVE the V30 in certain places, but not others. Maybe it's a trade-off that a hack like me hasn't had enough experience to realize.
They're the only speakers I've ever had experience with.

I LOVE the Burstbucker 3 in the bridge of my SG. VERY mid honk, upper mid accentuated, and through my amp, with the V30's, it's stellar. Still, when I put new strings on, I'm always looking for more mid/upper mid cut, so I end up leaving the mids at noon, and turning up the treble to about 7, bass at half or sometimes less.

So, basically, will a shallower cab, baltic ply stiffen up those lows? Would it create more crispness, tightness in the mids? Please help!​

 

[soundboy57]

Much thanks guys. I appreciate the info. I went to that link, and found this post:


Please bare with me, but I need some serious help to nail this down, and it's somewhat involved for me.

I have a MESA 2X12 Rectifer with V30's from the early 90's.
The cab is on indefinite loan to me, and I can buy it anytime I want.
I've grown accustomed to the V30's hyper mid expressive tone
- that almost cocked wah tone. I actually call it the cat YEOWL, as I have here before.
And I LOVE that honky sound.

My only gripe about the V30, is that the low end is too extended,
boomy at times, puffy, not crisp enough.
I've discovered I love super crisp, detailed, razor sharp mid/upper mids.
I always considered changing out the speakers for my own.
So, I made the plunge a week ago, spoke with Jim Seavall at Scumback,
and he recommended the Scumback M75-PVC's, rated at 65W each, 35 oz magnet.

I put them in a few days ago, and was astonished at the clarity,
the pop of notes in the strings, the ability to hear every note in a chord.
However, they're a bit too vintage for my taste. I found that the mids
were a bit spongy - compared the V30's hard hitting "PEEEOWNG" kind of mid tone,
and that upper mid nasal bite that I love wasn't there.

I figure you can always dial mids back a bit, but it they're not there to begin with,
good luck trying to put them into the signal.
The speaker plays a huge role i've realized in that chain,
as does the pickup, and strings etc..

To make a long story shorter, Jim said that the MESA
recto cabs are actually darker than say a "vintage"
sized cabinet like a 1936, constructed the same way.
It's just so hard for a basement hack like me to
differentiate between what's causing what in the tone,
the speakers? The cabinet?
I don't have another cab to load anything into, so I can't figure it out.

So that brought me back here. In a perfect world, what I want is the mid, upper mid cut and zing of the V30, but with a tighter, more precise, less WOOFY low end - if that's possible. Keep in mind, I do have a 2006 DSL-100, Joey Mods were done to the letter,
and a new ClassicTone OT, and 3H choke - that helped clarity and punch IMMENSELY.

But, maybe it's that DEEP switch resonance control - I always have it on,
but turn the bass down to about 3-4 usually, treble up to 7, mids up the 7, and the presence usually at half or a bit less.

So I either hold onto these Scumbacks which are great, but not quite mean enough sounding for me, sell them, or return them to Jim with a restocking fee - I'll just have to deal with that. Take my chances on another speaker, or just simply wait to get my hands on a 1936 baltic cab, with whatever dimensions you guys think will stiffen up the low end of the V30's,
and make the mids even more crisp. And that's about where I am with this.

I LOVE the V30 in certain places, but not others. Maybe it's a trade-off that a hack like me hasn't had enough experience to realize.
They're the only speakers I've ever had experience with.

I LOVE the Burstbucker 3 in the bridge of my SG. VERY mid honk, upper mid accentuated, and through my amp, with the V30's, it's stellar. Still, when I put new strings on, I'm always looking for more mid/upper mid cut, so I end up leaving the mids at noon, and turning up the treble to about 7, bass at half or sometimes less.

So, basically, will a shallower cab, baltic ply stiffen up those lows? Would it create more crispness, tightness in the mids? Please help!​

Replace one of the V30's with a G12H anniversary.
I don't like either speaker by itself, but together the are a perfect marriage, so to speak.
I used them in 2x12 rehearsal cabs and live cabs for many years.
It gives the full spectrum better, and then you can use your tone controls.

Spend $80 on a used G12H and try it...you can always get your money back, but I bet you will love it​

 

[maltone]

Soundboy I might try something like that.
I'm really interested in all this stuff, but
There's so much info out there, varying
Opinions etc.

Because I play at a fairly moderate volume,
Wouldn't power handling be an issue?
The 2 - 60 watt V30's (120 watts total)
seem to hold up just fine with the DSL 100,
but the G12H & the V30 would only be
60 watts combined - are you sure it's safe
to run 100 watts through them?
with those 2 speakers

 

[johnfv]

Those Rectifier cabs are boomy because they are so deep. There were definitely going for extended low end in a 2x12 cab. The deep 1936 has a hint of that big low end, you might prefer the older (thinner) style 1936, it was a good sounding cab but very mid focused. Bottom line, the depth does very much impact the low end response - all other things being equal a thinner cab will generally be thinner in tone

Having a cab in the corner or on the floor will make it more boomy also, IMO the rectifier cabs sound best raised up. It's not like the V30 is particularly a boomy speaker.

I like my 1936 raised up off the floor also:

 

[maltone]

Johnny, those older 1936 cabs you're talking about... 9 to 10" depth to keep it middier correct? I don't want ditch all the base, I just want it tighter, stiffer, less extended.

I don't want to buy a "new" 1936 either. There's a guy in Ontario, a few hours from me, who builds cabs himself, just like a Marshall 1936, or a Mesa, whatever you want. He says his cabs

are built with 5/8" Baltic Birch ply for the cab, and 1/2" Baltic Birch for the baffle and back panel.

As far as size goes, the dimensions of his over-sized 2X12:

2x12 - Empty Oversize - 28"W x 22"H x 12"D

I absolutely want even MORE mid/upper mid focus, tighter, snappier. Hear this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmM5zELacqw
From 0:22 to 0:35, it's only 13 seconds.

It's really honky, snappy, there's no woof, any hint of the rounder low end is from the Greenbacks in that cab (I asked him). I think his JMP 2204 is snappier, brighter than the 1987 too. The 2204 is a bit thinner & brighter than the 87', but it cuts & honks better, I really dig that.

So, when I do order the cab from this guy, what depth is enough to keep the mid-range very forward, and just enough bass to keep the low end tighter, stiffer?

I even thought of sticking memory foam inside this Mesa Recto cab, thinking maybe it'll act like a noise gate in behind the cones? I have no idea, I'm grasping here.

 

[soundboy57]

Johnny, those older 1936 cabs you're talking about... 9 to 10" depth to keep it middier correct? I don't want ditch all the base, I just want it tighter, stiffer, less extended.

I don't want to buy a "new" 1936 either. There's a guy in Ontario, a few hours from me, who builds cabs himself, just like a Marshall 1936, or a Mesa, whatever you want. He says his cabs

As far as size goes, the dimensions of his over-sized 2X12:


I absolutely want even MORE mid/upper mid focus, tighter, snappier. Hear this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmM5zELacqw
From 0:22 to 0:35, it's only 13 seconds.

It's really honky, snappy, there's no woof, any hint of the rounder low end is from the Greenbacks in that cab (I asked him). I think his JMP 2204 is snappier, brighter than the 1987 too. The 2204 is a bit thinner & brighter than the 87', but it cuts & honks better, I really dig that.

So, when I do order the cab from this guy, what depth is enough to keep the mid-range very forward, and just enough bass to keep the low end tighter, stiffer?

I even thought of sticking memory foam inside this Mesa Recto cab, thinking maybe it'll act like a noise gate in behind the cones? I have no idea, I'm grasping here.

The only way to find out is to try different things. Then, after decades of using a lot of gear, and spending money, you can post on here and have people disagree with everything you have found.

The shallower early 1936 cabs from the early 80's are the same dimensions as the 70's 2045....9" deep. I own them both.
They are somewhat punchier and tighter than the larger current size. Some think they lack bass, and they do somewhat....but I thought the larger cab was a bit woofy in the low end.
They can both sound great, depending on the speaker used.

One of the best 2x12 cabs I have heard was an early 80's 9" deep cab, with G12 65's that had 2" fibreglass on the bottom and one side.
Sweet, defined, and tight sounding...

My two cents

 

[maltone]

Soundboy, maybe i can split the difference, and settle on a 10" depth for the cab?
If i had to separate my likes and dislikes about the V30 on a piece of paper, the likes come in at about 90% - so that's a good thing.

Question dude, are G12-65's anything like the V30?

I always repeat myself, because it's the sonic signature of the V30 - that quack, or "EEOWNK" honky mid/upper mid thing. It's kind of pre-rola greenback, sort of, only much more accentuated, and tighter.

 

[soundboy57]

People either like the V30 mid spike, or they don't.

Some mix them with other speakers to balance it out, with great results.

The 65 is more balanced in the mids and smoother.

 

[paul-e-mann]

Much thanks guys. I appreciate the info. I went to that link, and found this post:


Please bare with me, but I need some serious help to nail this down, and it's somewhat involved for me.

I have a MESA 2X12 Rectifer with V30's from the early 90's.
The cab is on indefinite loan to me, and I can buy it anytime I want.
I've grown accustomed to the V30's hyper mid expressive tone
- that almost cocked wah tone. I actually call it the cat YEOWL, as I have here before.
And I LOVE that honky sound.

My only gripe about the V30, is that the low end is too extended,
boomy at times, puffy, not crisp enough.
I've discovered I love super crisp, detailed, razor sharp mid/upper mids.
I always considered changing out the speakers for my own.
So, I made the plunge a week ago, spoke with Jim Seavall at Scumback,
and he recommended the Scumback M75-PVC's, rated at 65W each, 35 oz magnet.

I put them in a few days ago, and was astonished at the clarity,
the pop of notes in the strings, the ability to hear every note in a chord.
However, they're a bit too vintage for my taste. I found that the mids
were a bit spongy - compared the V30's hard hitting "PEEEOWNG" kind of mid tone,
and that upper mid nasal bite that I love wasn't there.

I figure you can always dial mids back a bit, but it they're not there to begin with,
good luck trying to put them into the signal.
The speaker plays a huge role i've realized in that chain,
as does the pickup, and strings etc..

To make a long story shorter, Jim said that the MESA
recto cabs are actually darker than say a "vintage"
sized cabinet like a 1936, constructed the same way.
It's just so hard for a basement hack like me to
differentiate between what's causing what in the tone,
the speakers? The cabinet?
I don't have another cab to load anything into, so I can't figure it out.

So that brought me back here. In a perfect world, what I want is the mid, upper mid cut and zing of the V30, but with a tighter, more precise, less WOOFY low end - if that's possible. Keep in mind, I do have a 2006 DSL-100, Joey Mods were done to the letter,
and a new ClassicTone OT, and 3H choke - that helped clarity and punch IMMENSELY.

But, maybe it's that DEEP switch resonance control - I always have it on,
but turn the bass down to about 3-4 usually, treble up to 7, mids up the 7, and the presence usually at half or a bit less.

So I either hold onto these Scumbacks which are great, but not quite mean enough sounding for me, sell them, or return them to Jim with a restocking fee - I'll just have to deal with that. Take my chances on another speaker, or just simply wait to get my hands on a 1936 baltic cab, with whatever dimensions you guys think will stiffen up the low end of the V30's,
and make the mids even more crisp. And that's about where I am with this.

I LOVE the V30 in certain places, but not others. Maybe it's a trade-off that a hack like me hasn't had enough experience to realize.
They're the only speakers I've ever had experience with.

I LOVE the Burstbucker 3 in the bridge of my SG. VERY mid honk, upper mid accentuated, and through my amp, with the V30's, it's stellar. Still, when I put new strings on, I'm always looking for more mid/upper mid cut, so I end up leaving the mids at noon, and turning up the treble to about 7, bass at half or sometimes less.

So, basically, will a shallower cab, baltic ply stiffen up those lows? Would it create more crispness, tightness in the mids? Please help!​

Can I suggest putting a panel inside your cab to create less room in the speaker compartment? Less room, less boomy. ​

 

[maltone]

Funny you say that pedecamp...
I had the back panel off today,
and stuffed a memory foam pillow
inside, then closed the back up again...

It did dick! I looked at the inside and
thought of putting in another piece
of solid birch to shorten the distance
in between the baffle and the rear cover.

But the issue is how to fasten it to
The corner braces and top & bottom of the cab?
unless I can build them up somehow, then I'd have
To add bracing to the roof & floor of the
cab too

 

[johnfv]

...The shallower early 1936 cabs from the early 80's are the same dimensions as the 70's 2045....9" deep. I own them both.
They are somewhat punchier and tighter than the larger current size. Some think they lack bass, and they do somewhat....but I thought the larger cab was a bit woofy in the low end.
They can both sound great, depending on the speaker used...

The main reason I sold my old (shallow) cab was the top handle, it was always getting in the way of the heads I put on there. I did prefer the extended low end of the deeper cab but I understand how some people might consider it too much. I did finally take the stock G12T-75 speakers out and replace with WGS. My cousin still has the old (shallow) cab, maybe I should try to get it back

...maybe i can split the difference, and settle on a 10" depth for the cab?...

I think 10" deep would be a good compromise.

IMO, the V30 is fine but greenbacks and the 65s are great also. G12-80 is another great speaker, perhaps my favorite. Like I said, I'm a fan of WGS too...

 

[paul-e-mann]

Funny you say that pedecamp...
I had the back panel off today,
and stuffed a memory foam pillow
inside, then closed the back up again...

It did dick! I looked at the inside and
thought of putting in another piece
of solid birch to shorten the distance
in between the baffle and the rear cover.

But the issue is how to fasten it to
The corner braces and top & bottom of the cab?
unless I can build them up somehow, then I'd have
To add bracing to the roof & floor of the
cab too

Try it, cut some wood strips and screw them in then screw in a wood panel. Give the cab maybe a 10" deep dimension inside. No harm done as long as you don't glue anything and get the right length screws.

 

[Trapland]

One of the best 2x12 cabs I have heard was an early 80's 9" deep cab, with G12 65's that had 2" fibreglass on the bottom and one side.
Sweet, defined, and tight sounding...

My two cents

That 2¢ents is the best you'll ever spend. The shallow marshall 2x12 made from plywood filled with G12-65s is one of the best sounding cabs of ANY configuration. Not perfect for drop tuned metal, but amazing for most other rock and hair metal.

I also like those speakers in a 4x12 and even though I own bottom cabs, I like the slant top cabs for the tighter bass. But if I could only have one cab it would be the 2x12 with 65s.

 

[maltone]

Johnfv: regarding the WGS speakers… What are you currently using? I'd love to know more from someone who actually owns them.

Pedecamp: I might just try in a weekend or 2, I think I'm getting sick.

Trapland: I've heard that about 65's, but EVERY single demo I've ever heard on you tube of the 65's sound muffled. Like the EQ shifted or something. Who knows why. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avwZ4OEF25g and all you have to do is listen from the beginning to the 0:45 second mark. THIS is the kind of SH*T that makes me uncertain of speakers. To me, that 65 is muffled, buzzy, and it doesn't have that snarly, cocked wah tone of the V30. There's a presence or CUT that's missing. That video makes me think, "really? Do I want G12-65's???

Bad Segue here, but a great example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOrtpbiPvtg And all you have to do is listen from 1:10 — 1:30. I think of Skynyrd's tone. But here's the tiny detail in this clip…

RIGHT at 1:25-1:26, he plays this 1 second ascending rock n' roll riff that starts on the A chord - it's only 4 notes. If you play it over a few times, and really listen, when he picks the A chord at the beginning of the riff, that A has this spanky, clear, snappy thing, but it growls a little bit. A big part of that "grrr" is how his pick rakes over the strings, digging in a bit harder - I play that way all the time, - picking on the strings almost directly over the bridge pickup, very bright, very snarly. Now I know he's playing a Z Wreck, and he's got a really spanky PAF (Love that snappy tone) —*Now marry that cleanish, snarly, snappy thing, with a slightly overdriven Marshall, not clean, but not saturated. What speakers would best express that snap and honk he's got going on? Sometimes it's like I want that Fender Tele snap/spank, COMBINED with Marshall overdriven midrange - to keep things tight and snarly. It's a tight-rope I think.

Maybe really clean sounding Fender type speakers? I have no F'ING clue.

 

[Trapland]

I listened to the clips. The first one is a terrible example of how to compare speakers.

I find the best way to compare is to make damn sure all speaks being compared are used in the same cab, preferably a similar cab to what you plan to use.

To my ears, vintage 30s have a huge spike in the 1.5-3kHz range that makes them a one trick pony. Easy to hear in a mix but rather one dimensional. G12-65 seem to still provide a nice upper mid bump but less peaky.

At least with a 65 the amount of bass is directly affected by the cabinet choice. Highs are what they are, but listening to an unspecified signal chain is NOT the way to decide if a speaker is for you. The guy in the first video gives detail about his mics but nothing about his Tele, its pickups, how its EQed, and nothing about his marshall, is it a JMP or a JVM? Does he have the presence up or down, treble? No way to know.

How I knew I liked 65s was to compare them in the same cab style WITH MY BAND to see if I could hear them well in the stage mix and listen to how they recorded in the overall mix. I compared greenbacks, blackbacks V30 and 65s. I like greenbacks better for personal practice, but LOVE 65s in a band mix. Listen to them all how you intend to use them. And for the money of the new ones, find some nice 1980 era G12-65s. Or at least well broken in speakers of your choice. It matters a lot.

One last thing, many speakers are "typecast" as being best at one thing. It can make finding good examples on line difficult. To many, V30s modern are metal speakers, 65s are hair metal, greenbacks are classic rock. Don't get locked in to one genre's idea of how much distortion and how they think they should be EQed. V30 s can sound amazing clean with the mids cut a bit.

 

[maltone]

Trapland....

I know, i've discovered that a few times by accident - an amp that shouldn't really do "cleans" well, but how you set the amp, what pickup etc. Yeah, you're right.

I'm doing this thing to death, and I'm tired of blabbering. I really love the spike of the V30, and although it's not a dark sounding speaker, it's resonant peak (the actual speakers I have) seem very low. I just think they're really worked in because they're from the early 90's, or mid 90's, can't remember. And I don't want to replace them with something that misses that mid hump "EEOWNK" thing - I love that.

When I tapped the inside of the cone on the M75-PVC, it had a higher pitch, almost somewhere around A flat, maybe a bit lower. The V30's pitch was actually in the K of the low E string - to the letter. WOW. So maybe that's part of the boominess I hear.

Another friend is telling me to ditch my DSL - as great as it is, and buy a used older JCM 800. You're pulled in so many directions, and the b*tch of it is, it costs money to try this stuff out.

I need to meet someone with a few older cabs, with different speakers, and A/B my DSL through THEIR cabs, then back to my own MESA, just to see what happens.