Real Amps vs. Modelling

[Denis St Guinefort]

So I've had a bit of a history with amp modelling. I started with real amps, went to modelling, and have since gone back to real amps. At the risk of invoking Law and Order...this is my story.

DUN DUN.

However, I hope I'm raising some different arguments in regards to amp modelling. Namely I don't think modelling is the issue. My issues are to do with IRs and the Industry.

However, it's been a hot minute since this topic was beaten like a dead horse again, so I thought I'd kick this hornets nest and see what we all thought? Where are we at with modelling vs amps these days?

In my opinion, there are two types of modelling amps: the first type is the typical Line 6 style with a variety of amps simulators; the second is a much more traditional one offered by a specific company to reproduce their own basic unique sound, such as the Orange Crushes. More companies have fairly recently ventured into this field, for instance Fender with their transistor Twin, Super Reverb, and more. In these cases, less is more. I use mainly a Marshall Origin 20C. When it comes to bedroom levels, my Blackstar Debut 10E works much better without disturbing the neighbours.

It seems to me an amp offering multi amp-simulations isn't as good soundwise than the ones aimed at simulating a single one. The latter have become truly close to the tube amp simulated. For instance, my Orange Crush Mini through a good cab got very close to my OR15H with similar cabinets. And the Mini is the cheapest amp from the same manufacturer with a speaker out to a cab, which the other transistors in the Crush series do not have. I found it a better fit than even the Crush35RT combo.

Where and when remains a crucial fact. For low volume at home, (in my case), I find a transistor amp without bells and whistles, extremely satisfactory. Since I prefer a very specific sound (a vintage classic rock) simply having such an amp does the trick IF it reproduces an excellent facsimile at lower volume. With tube amps, pushing hard the power amp tubes AND the speaker are crucial. It isn't the case with the former.

 

[losrack]

I tend to think that people that like Sims better, may be are not that good or have the experience and or gear to make an amp sound well ... and mic it well, which is not that easy.

 

[Derek S]

Most experienced guitarists with excellent hearing could not listen to a professionally recorded track and reliably tell if it was a tube amp or modeler. I won't say none, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was none. Take away the visual cues, record it and then play back through whatever your preferred listening device is and a lot of "experts" would be humbled fast. Not would be, have been. This test has been done.

Bingo. Agree. I was going to make the same point. Not knocking the purists or tube amp snobs, hell, for a long time I was one of them lol, but yeah, it's totally an ego thing for many "experts". Joe 6 pack playing his vintage amp in his living room knocking out some chords can sound amazing...but then here comes a guy with his new fangled modeler and puts up a clip that is on par tone wise or dare I say it, even one ups him in terms of tone, playing, mix, etc and here comes the butt hurt excuses ("well it took him an engineering degree and forever to dial in that tone", "it probably didn't feel right", "well that's not really rock and roll", "bet he can't play a real amp that well", blah blah.

 

[Plein Campagne]

Having worked in IT all my life when it comes to amps I just love the simplicity. So no busman's holiday for me. I use a SLO 100, Tone King Imperial, Dr Z Therapy and Z-Wreck Junior and an AC15HW1. No menus to navigate through. All the adjustments are there in front of you. Just a single level "menu".

 

[saxon68]

Lead guitarist in my previous gigging band built amps also, hates digital.

He did a bias on my 5150, and for the next 3 weeks went on and on in rehearsal about how much better it sounded since he biased it. 4th week he sees a little power amp and says aww looks cute, sounds like sh/t. I then told him I’d been using the Helix floor into that power amp for the last month. He wasn’t happy. I didn’t rub it in his face. He knew.

If it sounds good in a band mix it sounds good, I don’t care what you use to get it, I don’t care if it sounds like the model name or not, as long as it sounds good. Tubes, pedals, modeler, whatever. It all puts electricity to speakers.

 

[Cal Nevari]

Hey everyone. Interesting thread! Just an FYI that I saw Crowded House last night in Mesa, AZ and both Neil and his son Liam were playing through mic'd up Magnatones. Liam also had a Roland Jazz Chorus mic'd up. Fantastic show, btw, and they sounded great. Unclear if they were using any modelers, but I doubt it. Liam uses a looper, though, and he is amazing. If you get a chance to see them, try to do so!

 

[Derek S]

If it sounds good in a band mix it sounds good, I don’t care what you use to get it, I don’t care if it sounds like the model name or not, as long as it sounds good. Tubes, pedals, modeler, whatever. It all puts electricity to speakers.

This is what it's all about for me too. End results more than bragging rights or interweb peer pressure, etc. I'm in a stretch right now where I have to use the quiet option (taking care of my retired, 80 yr old father, simply can't crank my babies up so enter the modeler and tv volume jamming) and the ironic thing is, I'm so happy with the tones the volume thing got tossed right out the window lol, it just sounds friggin' amazing - I'd be using it if Pops wasn't here haha!

I'm in the minority I'm sure, but from day one with the Fractal I never was too concerned about authenticity, I simply wanted a device that gave me a collection of pro level recorded tones, from light break up to face melting gain, going direct that I can tailor to taste, blend, etc, along with state of the art effects. I don't mind if the lead tone on track x, y or z actually sounds like a Splawn, Marshall or Dumble, etc...as long as I'm getting killer tones in my music I'm content! Funnier still, some amp models are BETTER than their real life inspiration. Yeah. I said that. I owned a Quick Rod for years, always fought the stiffness vibe it had, very sterile feeling amp IME. LOVE the amp model in the Fractal because it has the same core tone but with much greater touch sensitivity! Go figure but why argue, I'm just recording it baby!

 

[tallcoolone]

I tend to think that people that like Sims better, may be are not that good or have the experience and or gear to make an amp sound well ... and mic it well, which is not that easy.

Lol!

If it sounds good in a band mix it sounds good, I don’t care what you use to get it, I don’t care if it sounds like the model name or not, as long as it sounds good. Tubes, pedals, modeler, whatever. It all puts electricity to speakers.

For many this hobby is more about shopping and collecting and there isn’t a damn thing wrong with that. But, again, no one wants to read a “let‘s see your modeler pics” thread

I owned a Quick Rod for years, always fought the stiffness vibe it had, very sterile feeling amp IME. LOVE the amp model in the Fractal because it has the same core tone but with much greater touch sensitivity! Go figure but why argue, I'm just recording it baby!

So true—I’ve said the same thing for years! The Fractal Splawn QR was MUCH easier to play than the real one I had.

 

[Jamil Ecrire]

Never see anyone trying to mimic that modeling tone, but tubes on the other hand...

I have no issues with modeling but there's a reason we're not trying to mimic them in my experience. So if a model can mimic the real thing, that's great, but the real thing is just doing what it was made to do.

 

[losrack]

All legendary tones are done with real amps ... that's why they get modelled and chased after.
If some one gets better results with modelling .. well ... that one's amp wasn't set up or interacted with properly.
I don't mind using modelling sounds, it is just sad and a lotta laze... or in the better case .. saving your lower back health which I can understand completely.

 

[jeffb]

Riverdogs (look ‘em up)

Hey! So you are one of the 5 people besides myself who bought that album BITD.

I have not heard it in over 30 years.

 

[MachineTrout069]

For me, they're both usable, just for different purposes. Modelers have come a VERY long way since i first ran into them in the late 90s, and i DO like them for one thing: Recorded tone.

By spending a few ducats on the right software (i use Amplitube and Bias, but others are just as good), i have access to amps, cabs, speakers, mics, and rooms that would cost tens of thousands of dollars or more to get "The Real Thing". Now, as rad as it would be to have a pro-level studio with all the amps and cabs i could ever wish for, the reality is that i was born in 1979, so my hopes of ever owning so much as a home are negligible. But with modeling software, at least i can have an approximation of just about any amp i can imagine on tape (OK, hard-disk, whatever - now you can model the tape, too ), and it will sound at least as good as what i could get in real life. Better, usually. Even the tiny little iRig HD with Bias FX on my phone puts out killer tones.

BUT.

There is at least one thing that can't be modeled, and that is the FEEL of a real amp pushing a real speaker, there in the room with me. Anyone who's played a real amp loud enough knows exactly what i'm talkin about: the interaction between the guitar, amp, speakers, and the air. It's literal feedback; the whole system is the instrument, and you can't model the feel of the speaker pushing back at you. It affects the way i play, to the point that i HATE playing through a modeler without a real amp. i tried for years after i moved into this apartment, and it just doesn't work for me. i absolutely have to have an amp.

So, these days i literally split the difference, courtesy of the humble Boss TU-3 tuner's dual outputs. The "main" output (the one that mutes when you engage the tuner) goes to whatever amp i feel like playing right then, and the "bypass" output goes straight into the audio interface as a DI. This way i get the best of both: modeled tones of whatever amps/pedals/speakers/whatever on the recording, and the inspiration of a real amp in the room so the performance feels good. Mic up the cab if i like, combine to taste - good enough for the likes of me!

 

[Antmax]

Most experienced guitarists with excellent hearing could not listen to a professionally recorded track and reliably tell if it was a tube amp or modeler. I won't say none, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was none. Take away the visual cues, record it and then play back through whatever your preferred listening device is and a lot of "experts" would be humbled fast. Not would be, have been. This test has been done.

That's the thing. Digital modelers sound like a good recording. Which is fine if you are recording. Unless it's a bad modeler with that awful digital falloff when there is any crunch in the tone. Otherwise you won't tell. But live in the room, the difference is much more tangible, even more so if you are playing in a quiet room at home and can feel as well as hear all the subtleties. Sound wise, in a busy venue with a lot of ambient noise, I don't think you are going to be able to tell the difference.

 

[Alter]

I know many musicians (me included) that use modelers, but no one that actually prefers them to real amps. Invaluable tool though.

 

[Purgasound]

I've been buying vintage tube amps and speaker cabinets for 20 years and have never sold any except for two SL-X's (not quite vintage). If I sold them all I could pay off my house, not to mention never have to buy tubes again.

That being said, here's my take on modelers...

If there was a $2K product that could replace all my tube amps I would buy it and sell my collection in a heart beat. That product doesn't exist.

I'm not saying they are't a useful tool because they quite certainly are. It's just something different. I can't stand the way digital distortion sounds so I don't own one. I bought an AXEFX II for a tour maybe 8 years ago or so and I gave it away mid-tour and went back to my old rig. It's not for me.

 

[mojodelic]

I guess I'm the exception - I do both. When the bandleader started booking Friday gigs I got a Helix so I could go straight from work to the gig with one guitar and the HX. Didn't take long however to realize that I needed (A) an amp (feedback, stage vol) & (B) more guitars (tuned to open G and E). The amp I use is an SV20C - the most common preset - Jumped Plexi!! So I go to FOH with a Plexi sim and 1/4" out to my Plexi amp (jumped). I'm not saying it works for everyone but we get really nice gigs & I'm happy. I think my tone is good, YMMV.

Peace.

 

[Dirty-D]

you know, they make silicone tubes that pulsate and knead and vibrate, all that but l don't know why when there are still pleanty of real women around. I feel the same way about amplifiers. NOTHING compares to the real thing in my experience.Tone involves more than just frequencies interacting with each other.Volume, response, 60 cycle hum, the physical electricity flowing through your body to the guitar through the air to the equipment.It all creates a feel and a tangeabe connection to what you're playing. To put it simply, Jimi Hendrix used a real amp, so did Thin Lizzy.Good enough for them and they're better than any of us so. . .

 

[saxon68]

I still have to laugh when I see someone say wont use modelers because they don’t wanna tweak or mess with settings, then in another thread you see them taking about different speaker swaps, another thread about tube rolling, then another about modding. Just saying, we all get our geek on one way or another

 

[chocol8]

That's the thing. Digital modelers sound like a good recording. Which is fine if you are recording. Unless it's a bad modeler with that awful digital falloff when there is any crunch in the tone. Otherwise you won't tell. But live in the room, the difference is much more tangible, even more so if you are playing in a quiet room at home and can feel as well as hear all the subtleties. Sound wise, in a busy venue with a lot of ambient noise, I don't think you are going to be able to tell the difference.

As someone who builds, repairs and mods tube amps, and also has owned and continues to buy modelers for over 2 decades now, I think much of the "in room" gap has closed. Not completely yet, but with cab sims off, running a modeler(profiler) into the same cab as the amps, it is getting much harder to tell unless you know the quirks to listen for.

I happen to have enough space and income to own both, and I can't imagine giving either up. I think anyone who is one or the other is missing out.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

A modeller or other SS amp through a cabinet, it has to be for me, that sounds good does the trick same as a tube amp.

Tube amps are generically listed in this thread as if they are all the same too. A cheap PV tube amp doesn't sound like a 2203 or a Mesa. Just like modellers can sound different.
I don't care what makes the tone as long as it sounds amd feels good and I like it.
As mentioned above, more time spent playing than arguing about amp types probably wouldn't hurt any of us