Reverb in front of SV20 v Origin 20

[Mark Collier]

I have almost always been an MFX in front of a Tube Amp guy (i.e effects only, no modeling/cab emulation). Pod 1 and 2, Digitech RP 350, 500, 1000 and now Helix LT.

So effects loops have never really been my thing. But I find myself suddenly considering it.

I have noticed and wonder why putting reverb in front of the SV20 sounds terrible but fine through the Origin 20.

Even when I match the crunch levels between amps, the reverb gets amplified and distorted on the SV but not (or not noticeably so) with the Origin 20.

I end up having to turn the mix down to 2-3% when using the SV to try and tame it and pretty much anywhere 10-30% (i.e. normal) when using the Origin and most of my other amps in the past.

Does anyone understand why or what the SV does differently to the Origin to cause this?

 

[fitz]

Put it in the loop.

 

[Sir Don]

I can't really answer your question, I'm sure others here will be able to.

However, the effects loop is your friend.

 

[Georgiatec]

Use the loop or go old school and put it in your jumper....Guitar to top left, bottom left to reverb, reverb to top/bottom right input. The normal channel volume give a seperate control of the effect which doesn't have as much gain as the bright channel.
Some of us old timers used this method with four hole Marshalls when chorus, reverb and delay pedals first came out.

 

[junk notes]

Yes, put the reverb in the loop as others have suggested. Use it.

reverb in front of the SV20 sounds terrible but fine through the Origin 20.

Interesting, although, different circuits.

 

[junk notes]

Use the loop or go old school and put it in your jumper....Guitar to top left, bottom left to reverb, reverb to top/bottom right input. The normal channel volume give a seperate control of the effect which doesn't have as much gain as the bright channel.
Some of us old timers used this method with four hole Marshalls when chorus, reverb and delay pedals first came out.

I had posted this diagram in another thread, that hopefully should help.
(sub reverb pedal instead of delay pedal, or any pedal.)

 

[dro]

Don't play an Origin anymore.
But I'm a plug it in the front guy.
Loop may be fine for studio use. But live, too much crap. Just plug it in and go.
I use Reverb so seldom anymore, thinking of taking it off my board all together.

 

[ken361]

Use a delay like I do with a slight echo the Keeley Dark Side sounds great gives it a bigger fuller sound up front it has a slight volume boost. Sometimes I think the loop kills the tone on these studios i play loud and can hear it.

 

[Mark Collier]

Thanks guys, appreciate the responses and suggestions. Especially the 4 hole method, that it is a new one to me.

Just to clarify. I know I can (and have) used the effects loop, but with the extra cables and different power supply for the pedals in the loop making it all a bit of a mess, I'm not so keen on that but will do whats necessary

However, I'm more intrigued as to how or why it does this.

How common this might be across different models etc. I'd like to understand from the clever folks here who know about the circuits, in layman's terms, the how and why it is so different is all.

 

[Mark Collier]

Use a delay like I do with a slight echo the Keeley Dark Side sounds great gives it a bigger fuller sound up front it has a slight volume boost. Sometimes I think the loop kills the tone on these studios i play loud and can hear it.

That's a good idea, I'll try that. Thanks.

 

[ken361]

loop button off playing loud seems more fuller sounding on my studio amps

 

[scozz]

Probably because these two amps have different circuits, no?

I mean there are lots of pedals that sound better in certain amps than other amps, I’m thinking this pedal is no different.

Maybe one of the tech guys here have a better, (correct), answer.

 

[Biff Maloy]

A bucket brigade delay or an Echoplex type is going to work much better in front of the SV for ambience. I don't use reverb but if i did I'd have it in the loop. The loop is a good option included but I go all out front with a pretty basic setup much like most late 60s early 70s players would have done. Doesn't mean that's all you can do with one but reverb in front of most any amp overdriven is tough to get right. The SV also distorts more and different to the Origin. The SV gets loud quick so you could shoot for a cleaner sound and still have volume. Those volumes are more like gain knobs than just a linear loudness control. I had a 20H. I'd recommend the same thing with it although it does have more headroom. I liked it overdriven but it was designed and voiced more as a background to paint with effects.

 

[Mark Collier]

Okay, I have mostly resolved the issue.

It turns out I had my Helix "Line Out" set to Line Level and not Instrument Level.

I was checking global settings this morning and discovered that. What a dumb ass.

A very quick test with some heavy reverb and it sounds pretty damn good all of a sudden!!!

Weird how the Origin coped but the SV didn't.

 

[Buzzard]

I had posted this diagram in another thread, that hopefully should help.
(sub reverb pedal instead of delay pedal, or any pedal.)

Holy cow how have I never seen this before? Thank you!

 

[WellBurnTheSky]

Just to clarify. I know I can (and have) used the effects loop, but with the extra cables and different power supply for the pedals in the loop making it all a bit of a mess, I'm not so keen on that but will do whats necessary

You don't need a different power supply for the loop pedals, you need a good, isolated power supply for all your pedals. Don't skimp on your power supply, a good one makes a world of difference (and solves most of the annoyances people encounter with inferior products).
And yeah, a short BBD or tape echo is great in front of a Plexi-style amp, but it doesn't really work for most verbs or longer delays...most of the time.
And yeah, careful about levels when using processors such as the Helix, you can easily overpower (ie distort) you FX return. It (probably) won't damage anything, but will sound bad.

 

[ampeq]

Okay, I have mostly resolved the issue.

It turns out I had my Helix "Line Out" set to Line Level and not Instrument Level.

I was checking global settings this morning and discovered that. What a dumb ass.

A very quick test with some heavy reverb and it sounds pretty damn good all of a sudden!!!

Weird how the Origin coped but the SV didn't.

I'm glad you found that, I was going to ask if you had looked. I would also recommend the 4 cable method with the LT. I use the HX Effects now, similar but no amps, and the 4cm is the way to go. I really like it in my 2202 combo because I mark all the wires and stuff them in the back. (Super quick to set up.) I can switch it off if not in use. Drives in front, time stuff in loop, always works better for me.

 

[ColonelForbin]

I have almost always been an MFX in front of a Tube Amp guy (i.e effects only, no modeling/cab emulation). Pod 1 and 2, Digitech RP 350, 500, 1000 and now Helix LT.

So effects loops have never really been my thing. But I find myself suddenly considering it.

I have noticed and wonder why putting reverb in front of the SV20 sounds terrible but fine through the Origin 20.

Even when I match the crunch levels between amps, the reverb gets amplified and distorted on the SV but not (or not noticeably so) with the Origin 20.

I end up having to turn the mix down to 2-3% when using the SV to try and tame it and pretty much anywhere 10-30% (i.e. normal) when using the Origin and most of my other amps in the past.

Does anyone understand why or what the SV does differently to the Origin to cause this?

Put it in the loop.

Yes; this ^. With the Origin too; put digital modulation, reverb and delay in the fx loop.
Put analog delay in front of the amp.

Also, with Helix, use 4 cable method (4CM). This allows you to make use of the Helix noise gate at the input stage (IE, amp fx loop send to Helix input). And I've found the Helix compressor model LA Studio comp sounds great as the first block in the fx loop chain. Then modulation, delay and reverb. Then stick the Helix model of the Boogie 5 band EQ at the end of the Helix chain as a boost. Boost in Origin FX loop is VERY effective. I use an HX Stomp XL with an Origin 50 head and 1x12 cab, so I use regular pedals in front of amp, then amp fx loop send to volume pedal to HX stomp.

 

[JAC]

Effects loop might help you out. It is good for flanger, phase, delay, reverb, and other non distortion/OD effects.

 

[SkyMonkey]

FX loop 4CM all the way for me since I got rid of my parallel loop DSL401.
Both your amps are series loops, so your TBE's should be OK if you decide to go that way.