Srill no Marshall modeler? (and the death of the amp?)

[Johnny Triton]

I'd like to straighten out the OP and a few others. Many of you don't have good enough ears to evaluate Code amps. None of you have ever noticed Marshall engineers have even replicated the transformer hum and gain hiss particular to each amp model throughout their history. Try that at home, geniuses. If you hadn't noticed that you have no business critiquing any modeling anything. Leave it to musicians.

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

Maybe you’re onto something there. A few in this thread have mentioned “simplicity” of the user interface. All Marshall would need to do is put 7 knobs (presence, bass, mid, treble, Vol I, Vol II, master), one rotary switch, and maybe 3 or 4 buttons for channels on the front panel, and include a handful of excellent models (JTM, JMP, Master Lead, SJ, maybe a JCM900 model, maybe JVM OD1 and OD2). No menus, no LED screen.

But then again you just described the JVM. It can do pretty much 100% the sounds of the JMP (ch1) and the 800 as well as 2000 series. In fact the channels/tube configs are exactly the same as in those mentioned - all you need is to pair it with a suitable cab and it's so close it's really unbelievable. Especially if you do a few simple mods to the amp.

But, yeah, as great as the JVM is, it's HUGE and heavy and has to be played loud too, and it's speaker emulation output is far from perfect.

But if they could squeeze the JVM into like 2 rack spaces, maybe partially tube partially SS and add proper IR options...offer the power amp as separate rack unit maybe...or even into a mini head size....it'd be simply awesome. Simple, real actual preamp configs of the classics, and modifiable IR options.

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

I use both the old and the new together, so , for me, bring em both on and just enjoy ripping either, wtf? Whatever has the sound that inspires at the time, either a bro or babe in the audience, or the red light is on in the studio, be open to others advice and your own. Mix it all in a big pot and it will work great.

Well said.

I love playing loud, and I love tube amps... sometimes it's great to fire up our Plexi or crank the JVM when there's nobody around ...but I use modelers when ever they work better for the situation at hand. Today it's almost everything but playing for fun.

And it's not ONLY modelers but almost invariably I mix them with a real tube amp as a monitor, or at least real guitar speakers as monitors, when I play live.

Best to enjoy the best of both worlds!

 

[marshallmellowed]

Wow, Im 65 and still lug my 100 watt heads and 412's to gigs because to me there is no substitute for the power and feel of it. Ive been hooked since I was 18 with my 50 watt Marshall and 410 cab.

I refuse to become too lazy both physically and mentally to not take my gear to a gig. The 2 full stack days are long gone sure but there is always someone to help an old guy move his equipment Ive found.

Hell our bass player is even older and he helps me and everyone in the band setup and teardown.

Maybe Im lucky to still be able to do it at my age. I still do repairs and maintenance on my 60's 70's cars and trucks.

Our old drummer always said never surrender and lived that way till he met his end sadly.

Its sad that the next generations will be lugging a guitar and a Boss Amp&Cabinet pedal to gigs complaining about that being too much lol.

To clarify, I'm in good health and perfectly capable of hauling a 100w amp and 4x12 to gigs. When I say I'm getting too old for that, it's because with age, comes experience, and I've found "smarter" ways to get the sound I need live. The live sound I get from the Fractal is every bit as good as if I mic'd one of my Marshalls, but soo much easier to transport and setup. For those that have not discovered how to streamline their live rigs, I say, keep hauling those amps, or whatever it takes to get the sound that inspires one to play.

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

To clarify, I'm in good health and perfectly capable of hauling a 100w amp and 4x12 to gigs. When I say I'm getting too old for that, it's because with age, comes experience, and I've found "smarter" ways to get the sound I need live. The live sound I get from the Fractal, is every bit as good as if I mic'd one of my Marshalls, but soo much easier to transport and setup. For those that have not discovered how to accomplish that, I say, keep hauling those amps, or whatever it takes to get the sound that inspires one to play.

Same....and the audience will thank you as well. A big tube amp roaring on stage is great, but every single bar etc I've been to in years has a FOH volume maximum of 93dB or even less sometimes. You just can't crank a big tube amp loud enough to fit the mix at all.

 

[marshallmellowed]

Same....and the audience will thank you as well. A big tube amp roaring on stage is great, but every single bar etc I've been to in years has a FOH volume maximum of 93dB or even less sometimes. You just can't crank a big tube amp loud enough to fit the mix at all.

I just got home from a 4 hr. gig at a local club. We got nothing but compliments on our sound, and both myself and the other guitarist use modelers straight into a digital mixer and then powered mains. The club owner was telling us about the band that played the week before, and how they were tripping breakers every 3 or 4 songs. I can only assume they were using traditional amps, which, if tube amps, would definitely draw more current than our setup. Not that band's fault the club didn't have adequate power, but club owners just see it as a problem with the band, especially when we show up a week later and play with no power issues. Good for us, not so good for the other band.

 

[Caffeinated]

My impression of the CODE series was that someone decided to position it as a journeyman product, too expensive for kids but not properly specified for pro use. And that's why it failed.

The digital market has fragmented and matured. What works well at home recording may work well in a big studio too if well designed enough but is going to be klunky to use on a stage and almost certainly too fragile for rehearsals - racks all over again. The big split is around the rehearsal/road stuff; both form and function.

Fender has got this one right. They have the Mustangs pitched just right at kids and home. Will cope with rehearsals and light gigging, couple of hundred top model. Tonemasters; good enough for Pearl Jam. Probably don't sound exactly like your DR, TR, SR, PR etc but do sound pretty good once setup. Behave like amps, feel familiar. The new floor unit is a different thing and targets the people who wanted patches and control. They have a dedicated team.

The tech has gone from capturing sound to reproduce with non amplike control to building systems designed to behave like amps on a good day to having enough learning and processing power to build affordable systems that can behave like amps on a bad day - which is important because most of the great sounds are amps not behaving the way a radio engineer of old would have wanted. The tech is getting better all the time and the processing power and storage is getting tougher and cheaper more importantly too.

Real amps will always be a thing as long as there are valves to power them, but digital stuff is getting so good that valves are becoming the super premium option. Add to that the trend towards silent stages and Marshall really has dropped the ball here.

 

[PelliX]

Show me a modeler that can really nail an old Fender Bassman and a cranked Twin Reverb (at room levels) and I'm interested. Fractal are out of the question because I'm not going to pay a few thousand for the privilege of 'finding out'. I would be open to solutions that I can try before buy. This would something purely for the studio, no hauling and gigging. What would you guys suggest?

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

Show me a modeler that can really nail an old Fender Bassman and a cranked Twin Reverb (at room levels) and I'm interested. Fractal are out of the question because I'm not going to pay a few thousand for the privilege of 'finding out'. I would be open to solutions that I can try before buy. This would something purely for the studio, no hauling and gigging. What would you guys suggest?

They won't ever sound quite like a tube amp, not in a live room context, especially if you're running them thru PA / frfr speakers. With normal speakers and some adjustment, very close however.

But on recording, sure. For those semi clean Fender sounds I find Amplitube / Tonex to be the best. Tonex can also be bought as a pedal, typically around 250 used, and it's IMO even better than those expensive ones exactly for those Fender etc sounds.

They might not always feel like 'this is gonna be great' when you record the sounds, but the end product sitting in the mix will be better than recording a real amp like over 90% of time.

That's not because the sounds would be innately any better, but because you seldom have a chance to record your amp with like several different speakers and good mics in a good room....if you have that luxury I'm sure you can get even better sounds with real amps.

But considering the ease and that you can change amps and cabs and rooms and everything endlessly and right up to the final mix master stage more than covers for that.

Every now and then - and I've been doing this for well over a decade now - I will spend a few extra hours and record my latest best sounding amp at our band room with a 57 and condenser and every time I'm sure this is stunning, and I'll def use this track for the final version....and almost every time I end up using a modeled track instead, either because I want to replay something and can't be bothered to redo all the miking hassle, or most often, simply because I want to tweak the sound in the mix more than is possible with the recorded track.

Both Amplitube and Tonex have free to use plugins that contain a few amps, so it's easy to try them out.

But bear in mind, you also have to get a good steady signal going into those plugs, so a good HiZ interface for the guitar and paying attention to input levels is crucial. If you have a weak signal going in, they will sound terrible.

It's not like it's always easy to get there, but I promise that if you invest in finding out how to use them, they are so good and so convenient that it's a rare occasion indeed that I even bother to record a real amp.

Basically I only do that when I want to record like a super emotional very forefront bluesy solo bit in low gain...there the interaction with the amp and the feeling while playing gets so important, it's quite hard to achieve with modelers/plugins.

 

[Plexitim]

Count me in as Old School. Or maybe just difficult to cure.

To some of the earlier posts, yes I am seeing a market slowdown in gear I have listed for sale also on both Reverb and Ebay. Seems like more time and more flexibility on pricing or shipping help.

But no interest in modelers of any sort including from Marshall. Claiming they "almost" nail the Marshall tone tells me all I need to know. "Almost" the real thing is not the real thing.

I've played these a long time, I know tube supply is more dicey now than before, and the classic Marshall heads and cabs are heavy and difficult to move around.

But so what?

Respectful Opinion: If you want the legit Marshall sound you use a legit tube powered Marshall. And deal with all that comes with it. Full stop.

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

Count me in as Old School. Or maybe just difficult to cure.

Respectful Opinion: If you want the legit Marshall sound you use a legit tube powered Marshall. And deal with all that comes with it. Full stop.

I agree, in that if you want to hear how *your* Marshall sounds in a room, definitely, play the real amp.

But, if you want to *record* with sounds like those found on your favorite records, use a modeler. You'll never get anywhere as good sounds with a limited selection of amps and cabs and without a pro studio setting.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

Gonna say it again, one more time. YES, today's modellers, if set up properly, will fool ANY of you into thinking you're hearing the real deal tweed Bassman or whatever your favorite amp poison is. Even in a side by side comparison, you won't know with ANY degree of confidence which is which. As long as you don't use your eyes to see which one you're using.

The catch is, the setup has to be right. And that is where it becomes a bit involved.
I don't believe you'll ever get the live responsive feel of an amp out of any FRFR speaker cabinet and IR. Particularly if you use controlled (or uncontrolled!! feedback as part of your sound. I believe you need proper guitar speakers and a proper cabinet, of the appropriate type. And the power amp must be either correctly modelled, or use a real tube power amp.

Within those constraints, I believe a modeller has the capacity to fool any of you. Or me.

There's nothing a tube amp can do that can't be understood and modelled mathematically. If one takes the time to explore all of its capabilities and characteristics.

 

[PelliX]

But, if you want to *record* with sounds like those found on your favorite records, use a modeler. You'll never get anywhere as good sounds with a limited selection of amps and cabs and without a pro studio setting.

I'd say that depends. If you're trying to nail "that one tone from this album back in 196x that's only on one single record", then yes. If you just want a "ballpark" shot at the exact tone but want a 'good sound' a 57, 906 and a cab go a long way. Long enough for just about everyone for decades.

But on recording, sure. For those semi clean Fender sounds I find Amplitube / Tonex to be the best. Tonex can also be bought as a pedal, typically around 250 used, and it's IMO even better than those expensive ones exactly for those Fender etc sounds.

I'd prefer to avoid anything PC based like Amplitube. It's not that I don't appreciate how awesome it may be, but I'd just prefer a 'unit' like the Tonex, for example. We all know a Bassman or a Twin Reverb have a wonderful sound that they only release when turned way up (actually contrary to a fair few Marshall amps IMHO, but that's another discussion). If you (or someone else) has actual experience doing this; how close is it? I mean, I can buy a Bassman for just over a K, I can get a Twin Reverb for probably a bit more. If a Tonex (or whatnot) can get *almost* there, I'm happy. If it's more like "well, two thirds of the way", then I'd rather go a different route. What I'm looking for are for example some Keef tones and so on. Not very clean, not overly dirty. Simple signal chain, letting the glory of the guitar and amp do the work.

 

[TheChris]

I find it sort of curious Marshall doesn't seem to have plans to release proper digital versions of their amps, while many other makers obviously offer plenty of Marshall models. Even Fender now has their own modeler out. Do you think people would not be interested in a modeler by Marshall? They used to be so in the forefront with rack/DI gear back in the day with stuff like the JMP-1 and others...and now nothing.

It really seems to me that the tube amp is dying - or maybe not dying, but becoming a niche market of old geezers mostly, while everyone else seems to be going strongly to modelers/DI gear. It's been very apparent of late. I mean, I've been buying and selling amps on and off for over a decade as a hobby, and to facilitate testing different amps, but lately it seems you can't move any tube amps any more. Like just this week I've offered my Marshall JVM at a ridiculously low price for trade for guitars and whatnot, to many sellers, and almost invariably the answer is something alomg the lines 'nah man I've gone all digtal' amd so on. Seems to me the only people who still use real, big tube amps, are the guys who have that halfstack in their living room. Those who gig and play in bands seem to be going digital very strongly.

I mean, the JVM is like brand new mint condition, retails for what, 1300;- and I asked the local music store what would they give me for it and they said 400;- in exchange for a guitar. I've been selling it for months for 700;- and zero enquiries. I've offred to trade it for 400;- partscasters and no takers.

It's been slower and slower all the time. Even my 1959 Plexi which were like well north of 1000;- used a while back, I had to sell for 650;- and considered myself lucky I got rid of it.

So the market for a modeler under Marshall brand name certainly is there. And they could make it truly desirable by using the looks and style of Marshall, I mean, like make a super liight 'amp head' that kinda looks like a small tube amp, but actually is a modeler...and an FRFR speaker with the piping and the logo and looking kinda like a classic Marshall...

Yeah they have the solid state line, but they're not really like proper modelers with completely software based systems only, and they're cheap as well. I just think they COULD develop an all new modeler-based, top-quality, upgradeable, IR-based, customizable system with great FRFR speakers - they have the tech from their BT speakers even and so on...so why not?

If there was a Marshall head with completely digital, programmable and upgradeable system instead of a normal amp...I'd buy one, if it was on par with the other makiers and I don't see why could it not be,

My old pal Antti I don't think anybody is jonesing for a Digital modeler. There are JMP-1's out there, and I just re-bought my DRP-1. That's all one needs to play live or record. ONE good sound!!

 

[peterplexi]

I find it sort of curious Marshall doesn't seem to have plans to release proper digital versions of their amps, while many other makers obviously offer plenty of Marshall models. Even Fender now has their own modeler out. Do you think people would not be interested in a modeler by Marshall? They used to be so in the forefront with rack/DI gear back in the day with stuff like the JMP-1 and others...and now nothing.

It really seems to me that the tube amp is dying - or maybe not dying, but becoming a niche market of old geezers mostly, while everyone else seems to be going strongly to modelers/DI gear. It's been very apparent of late. I mean, I've been buying and selling amps on and off for over a decade as a hobby, and to facilitate testing different amps, but lately it seems you can't move any tube amps any more. Like just this week I've offered my Marshall JVM at a ridiculously low price for trade for guitars and whatnot, to many sellers, and almost invariably the answer is something alomg the lines 'nah man I've gone all digtal' amd so on. Seems to me the only people who still use real, big tube amps, are the guys who have that halfstack in their living room. Those who gig and play in bands seem to be going digital very strongly.

I mean, the JVM is like brand new mint condition, retails for what, 1300;- and I asked the local music store what would they give me for it and they said 400;- in exchange for a guitar. I've been selling it for months for 700;- and zero enquiries. I've offred to trade it for 400;- partscasters and no takers.

It's been slower and slower all the time. Even my 1959 Plexi which were like well north of 1000;- used a while back, I had to sell for 650;- and considered myself lucky I got rid of it.

So the market for a modeler under Marshall brand name certainly is there. And they could make it truly desirable by using the looks and style of Marshall, I mean, like make a super liight 'amp head' that kinda looks like a small tube amp, but actually is a modeler...and an FRFR speaker with the piping and the logo and looking kinda like a classic Marshall...

Yeah they have the solid state line, but they're not really like proper modelers with completely software based systems only, and they're cheap as well. I just think they COULD develop an all new modeler-based, top-quality, upgradeable, IR-based, customizable system with great FRFR speakers - they have the tech from their BT speakers even and so on...so why not?

If there was a Marshall head with completely digital, programmable and upgradeable system instead of a normal amp...I'd buy one, if it was on par with the other makiers and I don't see why could it not be,

I would rather see a Marshall JMP-2 with I.r. technology. Can be used with a power amp or just direct. Time to get away from stupidly large and expensive pedalboards.

 

[doc mckenna]

I have a 100 watt Marshall modeller. Though power section is tube. JDM 1 great variety of Marshall tones. Why do a modeller when you are only after Marshall tones?? Modelers are more for getting 5 or more distinct sounds, not variety's on a more singular voice. That being said kids don't want an amp, daw and a PC is all they really want, and really it's more economical. I have bought dozens of amps and rarely made money on them. So just go spend 2000 on a quality modeller or skip it, get a great daw and good software.

I don't think I will change as I love how my amps interact with the guitar and all the fiddly bits of tone tweaking with cabs and electronics. But I am on the back half of my life and no one cares that gen x even exists, caught between boomers and zoomers

 

[peterplexi]

What I've been wanting to see for years, is a programmable "all tube" signal path amp (or preamp). That would be quite a feat of engineering. I'm not talking about a design like the JVM, but beyond that. It would basically be a modeler that used "real" tubes for the preamp section, FX would still be digital. Diezel has a new amp that really intrigues me, but it's hard to tell what's really going on, circuit-wise, but they claim it's "all tube" for the core sound. As cool as it is, the price (nearly 5K) makes it impractical for most guitar players. I'd love to see a Marshall version of this amp, but without the price tag. Maybe a preamp only version, a JMP-1 on steroids.

My answer to this middle ground is the Hughes & Kettner Grandmeister Deluxe 40. Can be used as an amp or as an amazing sounding direct injection option. The feel and the tone just sounds better to me than digital. Bread and butter effects, instantaneous switching and super light to carry. If you like effects, then line out into an effect processor then stereo out to f.o.h.Their next amp will likely have I.r. tech so Bob's your uncle. It just feels and sounds better imo..sorry.

 

[LoudStroud]

Digital modelers have established their usefulness, but it doesn’t eliminate its main pitfall….They simply do not react or respond like a REAL guitar amplifier. I don’t care how you parse it. It sounds as flat as looking at a one-dimensional picture on the wall.

Stand in front of a 100 watt Marshall halfstack and your pants legs will be flapping.

Stand in front of the digital modeler at the same DB level and it’ll sound like a Marshall thru a PA. No air movement, just a loud noise behind you.

That’s fine if it’s all you need to get your gig done, but if you want to actually feel and physically be a part of your guitar and what you’re playing, remain analog.

There is something inherently unnatural about digital, at least when it comes to physics of sound. Not sure that part can ever be replicated.

In our live stage performance, we have figured out ways of controlling stage volume without having to resort to amps off-stage or using digital modelers. In my case, the SV20 certainly has helped and have even resorted to the lower 5W setting on occasion with excellent results.

Two things that have ruined the live rock show experience… Modelers/amps offstage and plexiglass in front of drums. Part of the live music experience is not just what you hear through the PA, but also the sound coming off the stage.

Maybe a third thing that began the ruin of the live rock show experience… FOH sound engineers telling you to turn down so low to where they have total control. 9 times out of 10 in a club scenario at least, you’re putting all of those hours of hard work in the studio and rehearsal room into the hands of somebody you just met at load in. But I digress.

 

[anitoli]

Damn, must be a bitch to move something around with wheels under it......................................

 

[Antti Heikkinen]

Damn, must be a bitch to move something around with wheels under it......................................

View attachment 141873

Heh, yeah...but when your band room is on the third floor and there's only a spiral staircase there and often you're there alone and still need to haul gear....

I got me a 4x10" Marshall and modified it until I got as big a sound as with a 4x12"....took me a while, and in the end I made it so that it's split in half so that lower section has two punchy modern Eminences, and the upper half is partially open to the back, and has the original Celestions.

The cab weighs like a quarter a full size cab does, easily carried alone - actually lighter than my 1936 2x12" - and has casters to boot. Never gonna go back to bigger cabs, this is perfect. Here under my Origin 50 which is also nicely light compared to bigger heads, but a terrific pedal platform nevertheless.

As much as I use modelers, I doubt I'll ever sell this rig. Unless someone offers an obscene price for it, obviously, but I doubt that. Yet, in band context, it's a better rig IMO in every way than the huge Plexi halfstack across the room.