The Great Debate: 50 watt vs. 100 watt

[solarburn]

I'll take a 50 watt just for less powertubes to replace. He he.

 

[RachelMorgan]

I'll take a 50 watt just for less powertubes to replace. He he.

True.

 

[pinto79]

I used to bury my whole band with the volume from my 2204.

I wonder what would happen now if I got those guys in the same rooma again with me and my 2203 and 1959RR in Stereo...

I like both and have used both. To me it comes down to MV. The Rhoads is uncontrolable without an attenuator, but absolutely slays.

 

[alerich]

I used to bury my whole band with the volume from my 2204. I wonder what would happen now if I got those guys in the same room again with me and my 2203 and 1959RR in Stereo.

You'd still bury them but the difference into a similar speaker setup would be only barely discernible. Many people don't realize that the lowest perceived volume increase that the average human ear can detect requires a doubling of power. That means a healthy Marshall 2203 is only barely louder than a healthy Marshall 2204 into the same speakers. It's amazing how many people think a 100 watt amp is twice as loud as a 50 watt amp.

 

[steelhorse]

+1 alerich

 

[Unknown3]

I always thought those 100W were better for larger avenues and/or for more headroom. I think most products have cooler names in their 100W versions (like JCM 2203, 1959 SLP, DSL 100) but 50W is more than enough for me, even coming from a single 12" speaker.

Now, what I DON'T get is the whole "tube-wattage"/"solid state wattage".

 

[BeëlzeM]

I think 50 watts is PLENTY for most people. It isn't that much less loud than a 100 watt amp. And when you even need more volume than 50 watts the venue is probably big enough to have a PA system.

 

[steelhorse]

I think 50 watts is PLENTY for most people. It isn't that much less loud than a 100 watt amp. And when you even need more volume than 50 watts the venue is probably big enough to have a PA system.

Exactly.

I have only 1 50watt head, my Vintage Modern, but I can tell you that this amp is every bit as loud as my 100 & 100+ watt heads.

 

[Eag]

I always thought those 100W were better for larger avenues and/or for more headroom. I think most products have cooler names in their 100W versions (like JCM 2203, 1959 SLP, DSL 100) but 50W is more than enough for me, even coming from a single 12" speaker.

Now, what I DON'T get is the whole "tube-wattage"/"solid state wattage".

A 50 watter and 100 watter of the same design have sonic characteristics unique to themselves and from one another in addition to the 100 watt amp being a little louder.

The 100 will have more clean headroom, therefore
The 50 will saturate at lower levels
The 100 will have slightly bigger and more stable lows
The 100 will have slightly crisper note definition at a given equal level.

None of these things is bad or good from an objective standpoint...it's a matter of taste.

As to the SS vs. tube wattage thing: Say a tube amp and SS amp are both rated at 100 watts RMS at 1% THD. The SS amp will not make more power without clipping and when it clips it will be unmusical and hideous, unusable. The tube amp can go to 4, 8, even 10% THD and be making up to 170 watts or more at that level of distortion.

If I'm wrong, at least it sounds convincing in the meantime.

 

[Unknown3]

Unfortunately, I didn't understand. Maybe because I don't know what RMS and THD stand for or mean.

 

[steelhorse]

root means square @ total harmonic distortion

 

[steelhorse]

Simply put the tube amp generates more power than a solid state of the same wattage rating

 

[Eag]

RMS is used to describe how much power an amp can maintain on a continuing basis.

PEAK is used to describe how much power an amp can make in little spikes.

THD is total harmonic distortion, or HOW MUCH DISTORTION the amp is making at a given power level.

It's pretty simple really, the idea behind power ratings for SS vs Tube amps.

Here's a tidbit for you: most modern tube amps are not all-tube at all, but hybrids with solid state power supplies.

 

[steelhorse]

Let's not muddy the water here Eag, I respectfully disagree that most tube amps are hybrids.

Hybrids are hybrids and are identified as such or called modeling amps etc.

Tube amps are just that, all tube. If they have a rectifier or diode clipping stage it hardly matters, they're still a tube amp.

Hybrids often only use 1 pre amp tube as part of their circuitry. Tube amps have pre amp stage, a power stage, transformers, etc. none of which 99.9% of all hybrids have.

 

[Eag]

Re-wax, Steelhorse!

I'm not saying that our Marshall amps are "hybrids" in the way that hybrids are represented and advertised. Simply pointing out that any amp with a solid state rectifier is, in all realtiy, the very definition of the term "hybrid" in its most strict sense. I still think of amps with ss rectos as "tube amps" as most of us do.

 

[DragonSarc]

sorry to wake this thread but I know it will only be 3db louder, will the 100 watt DSL have more gain than the 50 Watt DSL/ VM 2466 - 2266 /JVM 210h - 205h due to more watts or it should be the same? thanks

 

[jdog1]

I always find these threads and debates sort of funny. I mean, I don't know where everyone else is playing but I've been playing in bar bands for 20 years and have always had at least a 50 watt amp (tube and SS), always 4x12's or at the minimum 2x12, and have never been able to turn the volume up past 3 on the dial. I've played in large clubs and tiny corner dives and it's always the same. The loudest I ever get is at an outdoor gig on a large stage and then it doesn't get past 4. In fact, I wouldn't want to turn up any louder for fear my hearing would be destroyed instantly! With my JMP 50/4x12 I'm at 2, 2.5 max and more than enough to kill a small animal and keep up with any drummer. So the answer to this question for me is, either amp will work because I'm fairly certain I've never come close to reaching the wattage potential on any of my amps live.

 

[solarburn]

sorry to wake this thread but I know it will only be 3db louder, will the 100 watt DSL have more gain than the 50 Watt DSL/ VM 2466 - 2266 /JVM 210h - 205h due to more watts or it should be the same? thanks

There will be a bit more oomph(bottom)and head room with the 100 watter. No it won't have more gain because of wattage.

 

[DragonSarc]

I always find these threads and debates sort of funny. I mean, I don't know where everyone else is playing but I've been playing in bar bands for 20 years and have always had at least a 50 watt amp (tube and SS), always 4x12's or at the minimum 2x12, and have never been able to turn the volume up past 3 on the dial. I've played in large clubs and tiny corner dives and it's always the same. The loudest I ever get is at an outdoor gig on a large stage and then it doesn't get past 4. In fact, I wouldn't want to turn up any louder for fear my hearing would be destroyed instantly! With my JMP 50/4x12 I'm at 2, 2.5 max and more than enough to kill a small animal and keep up with any drummer. So the answer to this question for me is, either amp will work because I'm fairly certain I've never come close to reaching the wattage potential on any of my amps live.

True

There will be a bit more oomph(bottom)and head room with the 100 watter. No it won't have more gain because of wattage.

thanks man

 

[Ken]

I mean, I don't know where everyone else is playing but I've been playing in bar bands for 20 years and have always had at least a 50 watt amp (tube and SS), always 4x12's or at the minimum 2x12, and have never been able to turn the volume up past 3 on the dial. .

Yeah, I hear you. But that's not the point. The difference between a 50 and a 100 isn't how loud you can get at the maximum settings, it's about what the amp sounds like in between, as far as the clean headroom goes.

I purposly bought a 50 watter because at the time I was thinking I could crank it more to put the power tubes more in play; this is coming off using a JCM 900 4100 that sucked unless all 100 watts were there pumping air. And that was WAY too loud.

I didn't know at the time that the DR has a SS distortion component for the preamp, nor that the DSL gets all its tone from the all tube preamp. I was clinging to the thought that I wanted power tube distortion.

What I have learned since is I was right about the DR: the preamp sucks and so you need to play it full out. But a DSL really doesn't use the power tubes for much more than volume so I didn't need to think cranking a 50 was going to better than a 100 at a lower volume. A 100 is louder at the extreme but I never play full out anyway.

The 100 watt amps have more clean headroom, and THAT is the point. If you're playing Cheap Trick, AC/DC etc. get the 100. But if you're into more overdriven tones, the 50 is just fine (as is the 100 with appropriate gain settings). And both amps are equal if you go through the PA on stage most of the time.

I love my 50 but I'm sure a 100 would not be an issue.

Ken