Tube Misconception

[rockinr0ll]

A lot of people, including myself, seem to think that a re-tubing will fix the problems on their amp. I believe that it obviously can get you better break up but nobody ever talks about caps, transistors, transformers, or pot mods. Changing a transformer, I believe, would be a huge change on how the amp would sound. I just wanted to see a discussion on this topic. What do you think? Do you think that the tube hype is a little over exaggerated and we could start finding other ways to change the sounds on are amps to much higher standards?

 

[spacerocker]

It is the unique way that an over-driven valve (or tube if you must...) distorts that gives valve amps their sound.

The peripheral components are there to set the gain values, apply bias, and convert a high voltage signal to a managable music level. I can't see any of these components (as long as they are not broken/out of spec, etc) affecting the sound as much as the valves themselves.....

 

[riffdrive]

You bring up a good point. One thing I've noticed is that whenever someone has any kind of problem with an amp, the first solution seems to be "all new tubes".

I agree that tubes definitely do the most to change an amp's character and tone, but other parts shouldn't be overlooked.

I have a '66 Fender Dual Showman that sounded great, but I was unhappy with the mid pot - it didn't seem to do as much as I thought it should. I have a guy here locally who is a wizard when it comes to PTP tube amps. He put some kind of hotter mid pot in, and the difference was like night and day. I'm not sure what he did, and it may just be my imagination, but now it seems like when I crank the mids to around 6 or 7, not only do I get a fuller sound, but I get more gain as well. So I know for a fact that something as simple as changing a pot can have a dramatic effect, even when the original pot was working just like it was supposed to.

 

[Fixr1984]

I think the Valve Jr is the perfect example of what you are saying. Stock it's not very good. IMHO. Tubes have been said to change the sound for the better but changing the OT seems to make the biggest difference. I have yet to change my OT but just change other value resisters and caps made it better.

 

[Eag]

A lot of people, including myself, seem to think that a re-tubing will fix the problems on their amp. I believe that it obviously can get you better break up but nobody ever talks about caps, transistors, transformers, or pot mods. Changing a transformer, I believe, would be a huge change on how the amp would sound. I just wanted to see a discussion on this topic. What do you think? Do you think that the tube hype is a little over exaggerated and we could start finding other ways to change the sounds on are amps to much higher standards?

Good topic.

I think the main reason tube swapping is the most popular thing to try as a remedy or tone upgrade is simply because it's the one thing that most people can do for themselves and it's quick, easy and harmless (usually) to see if tubes will or won't address a certain issue. Another reason is that some people want to experiment but are not willing to go so far as to mod their amps especially if they they are rare or valuable.

To those who want to try any and everything to see what it will sound like, or to those who are chasing a sound in their heads, I say !cheers!, and post your results when you find something that sounds cool!

I love the rigs I play, they give me incredible tones of all kinds, yet I still love to experiment and tweak, trade a few tubes and overdrives here and there, try different cabs and speakers....I guess I am a middle-of-the-road tone head, that is I like to play around with it all at the guitar/pickup, overdrive/boost, tube swap and speaker/cab level...I just don't usually have to get way off into caps and pots, trannies, resistor value changes, etc. in order to get a rig to bring some beautiful stuff I can take off with....but I wouldn't be against it if I found I needed to do some heavy modding on a certain amp somewhere along the line. I choose an amp based on whether its sound is close to something I want anyway, so I'll maybe tweak a little something or maybe not, then off we go till some little whim hits me again.

 

[spacerocker]

I guess it's kinda strange for me. I'm known for modding just about everything, from my guitar (custom pick-ups, and home-made active circuit) to my pedals and motorcycle.

However, when it comes to my Marshall Amps, I have always left well alone. Partly, I think this is because I like the way they sound, and I think partly because I have been using the same 2203 since 1985, and it has never let me down, despite being on original valves!

This year, I have switched to a JVM410, and am still loving the flexibility it brings.

 

[Brett Blackmore]

Hi,

changing tubes has the greatest tolerance to changing the sound as even same makes differ according to age & usage - then come the rest of the electronic parts etc. Changing the transformer with the same model has the least affect on the sound as they are produced with stringent Q&A tests and are identical.

Even differences between different transistor manufacturers is possibly over exaggerated as they are produced to deliver exact values - however I can understand there might be a tonal difference between very expensive transistors and cheap ones.

Cheers Brett

 

[Adwex]

<snip> One thing I've noticed is that whenever someone has any kind of problem with an amp, the first solution seems to be "all new tubes". <snip>

....

That' usually the first stab at fixing a problem for three reasons...

1-It's easy. (preamp tubes moreso than power tubes)
2-It's cheap. (again, preamp tubes moreso)
3-They are the most likely culprit for many amp problems.

 

[MKB]

For some reason many guitarists feel the need to modify their equipment. Not many seem to have a definite result in mind like riffdrive's post mentioned, they just want to do SOMETHING. I'm of the opinion that if you want your Fender to sound like a Marshall, then sell the Fender and buy the Marshall you want. The amp mods have gotten a bit out of hand lately (but maybe not as bad as in the eighties when Lee Jackson ruled). The good thing about tube swaps is that it is very simple to do and nondestructive, and can have a big effect on the tone. There's not much you can do to change the tone of a solid state amp.

In many amps, old stock US or British manufacture tubes just simply sound better than Chinese or Russian manufacture tubes, most likely because the materials were much better back then and they could use whatever noxious chemicals and radioactive materials they needed for the manufacturing processes. The build quality and quality control as well as reliability was much better as well.

Transformers were simply of higher quality in years past because the laminations available were of higher quality and you could get many different types. Even if you could build transformers exactly like in the past, you still have the problem of getting the proper steel laminations, which are expensive. The only way you can tell you are getting the good audio grade stuff is to perform extensive metallurgy. I'd think the Mercury Magnetics and other high quality transformer manufacturers have sourced the good stuff though, and it's reflected in their prices. It's doubtful if Fender and Marshall (not to mention Peavey) are using the expensive stuff in their standard line products.

Probably the most extreme change you can make to the sound of an amp (other than tubes) is swapping speakers. This may make even more of a difference than tubes.

 

[rockinr0ll]

I changed my tubes, speakers, pickups and got a new rack system. I loved that! It was like getting a new guitar rig hehe..

 

[Eag]

"Probably the most extreme change you can make to the sound of an amp (other than tubes) is swapping speakers. This may make even more of a difference than tubes."

Without question!

The two things that change my sound the most, by far:

1) Change speakers and/or cab
2) Change guitars

IME tube rolling does offer many tonal differences and often improvements, however the differences are subtle compared to the above except in rare instances. Sometimes I can't tell one tube from another, sometimes a cheap tube sounds better. Once in a long while a tube - or tubes - will work miracles in an amp. It's why I still roll 'em when I got 'em.

 

[steelhorse]

That' usually the first stab at fixing a problem for three reasons...

1-It's easy. (preamp tubes moreso than power tubes)
2-It's cheap. (again, preamp tubes moreso)
3-They are the most likely culprit for many amp problems.

+1

Whenever amp owners have problems it should all start with the tubes for all of the above reasons, then one can decide whether to move on to plan B but experience has taught most long time tube amp owners that tube amp issues originate with tube issues a majority of the time which is exactly why it's recommended 'so much'.

 

[jcmjmp]

Some people will change all the caps on their boards for Mustards or Sozos in the search of better tone.

Is it all hype? Maybe, but some say they can definitely hear a difference.

Some people even say that they can hear the difference between F&T & JJ Filter caps.

Personally, I can barely hear the difference (at reasonable volumes) between a solid state rectifier and a tube rectifier. I would challenge anyone in a blind test to hear the difference.

Tubes will make an audible difference for sure but it can be subtle. There are more drastic ways to change your tone.

 

[spacerocker]

Some people will change all the caps on their boards for Mustards or Sozos in the search of better tone.

Is it all hype? Maybe, but some say they can definitely hear a difference.

Some people even say that they can hear the difference between F&T & JJ Filter caps.

Personally, I can barely hear the difference (at reasonable volumes) between a solid state rectifier and a tube rectifier. I would challenge anyone in a blind test to hear the difference.

Tubes will make an audible difference for sure but it can be subtle. There are more drastic ways to change your tone.

I would like to see some of the guys who think they can tell the difference between a tube rectifier and solid state prove it, with a "double blind" test!

As an Electrical Engineer, as well as a musician, I can see absolutely no reason why some of these components should affect tone.

It's a bit like the hi-fi guys saying that their stuff sounds better with gold-plated mains plugs! (which some of them claim!)

 

[amplifier]

soooo where's the misconception?

 

[jcmjmp]

I would like to see some of the guys who think they can tell the difference between a tube rectifier and solid state prove it, with a "double blind" test!

You'd only hear the difference when pushing the amp. The amp becomes spongier, meaning that the attack becomes softer. That's not so good for playing fast licks and solos.

Its like the difference between something like a G12T-75 or G12-65 and a G12M in terms of attack. Tone wise, the amp pretty much remains the same.

 

[mmorse]

You'd only hear the difference when pushing the amp. The amp becomes spongier, meaning that the attack becomes softer. That's not so good for playing fast licks and solos.

Its like the difference between something like a G12T-75 or G12-65 and a G12M in terms of attack. Tone wise, the amp pretty much remains the same.

I had a little marshall clone that could take either a solid state or tube rectifier. I could definitely hear a difference between the two. I MUCH preferred a ss rectifier. More aggressive and heavier sounding with more gain than with a tube.

 

[lemansfanatic]

Everyone knows the best way to change your tone is by changing types of picks! I use medium to get that creamy tone, and thick gauge for death metal!!!

 

[rockinr0ll]

lol I use the death metal picks..

 

[Dmann]

If I notice a problem with my sound, first thing I do is check the battery for my EMG pickups. Then the pre amp tubes in my ADA MP2 rack pre amp unit. If the issue persists, I do a swap out on the tubes on my Marshall last.

In 20+ years using the same Marshall (1978 Mk2 Master Model 100w Lead) I've never blown a tube, and any problems I've had are always my other gear and never the marshall.

I guess they sure don't make them like they used to.