Tube rolling report: new JJ E83CC and other ECC83/12AX7s in ‘72 1987

[FleshOnGear]

Last night I rolled preamp tubes in my 1987 for the first time since I bought it. I had picked up a pair of the more recent JJ offering, the frame grid E83CC, and I wanted to see how they stacked up.

I rolled these tubes mainly in V2, since this position is where the preamp distortion starts happening. I wanted to hear how they clipped. Amp settings were P10, B10, M10, T6, Vol I 10, Vol II 2.5.

My benchmark was the “International” labeled I63 Mullard I’ve had in V2 since buying the amp. This tube is warm and crunchy, with just the right amount of harmonics and articulation for hard rock. Before I tried the E83CC, I compared the I63 to a Shuguang 7025 and a Mullard long plate f92. The Shuguang was very similar to the I63, but maybe a bit less grunt and more sizzling harmonic activity. Overall an excellency sounding tube, but not quite as warm as the old Mullard. The f92 is warmer than the I63, with more relaxed harmonic distortion that seems to let the fundamental note come through a bit more clearly. It sounds like it has less gain, but I think it’s just not clipping as hard.

Finally, I plugged in the JJ E83CC. The distortion of this tube sounds stiff and blunt. It has an interesting grunt, but sounds choked in the treble. It sounds very different from the Mullards and the Shuguang, and I was not pleased. When I rolled off my guitar volume, it didn’t sound any darker than the other tubes, so I think it’s just the way this tube clips. I think this tube would be a good choice for an amp that sounds too bright and cutting.

Out of curiosity, I decided roll the JJ E83CC into V3. I’ve long been a fan of the original Tesla E83CC in the phase inverter position, because it has a very wide frequency response and a nice round clipping quality that doesn’t add a lot of fizz. I put a Tesla in my 1987 as soon as I got it. The JJ is supposed to be based on this Tesla. I put the f92 into V2, and the JJ into V3. Again, there was that blunt, choked tone.

I am very disappointed in these JJ E83CC tubes. They are nothing like the original frame grid Tesla they’re supposed to copy.

 

[Calebz]

I ran into a similar situation using JJs in a soldano, then the same JJs in a Jet city. In both cases, it sounded like a blanket had been thrown over the cab.

Those two amps are the ones that seem to have the biggest change. In my SC20, I've rolled through a handful of tubes and the differences have been much less extreme.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I have a box full of loose Sovtek and JJ preamp tubes at home. I should compare the JJ E83CC to the standard ECC83.

 

[Ken Bob]

I have a box full of loose Sovtek and JJ preamp tubes at home. I should compare the JJ E83CC to the standard ECC83.

I'd be interested to hear the results of this. You already have a good sense of how the JJ E83CC sounds in both V2 and V3 positions, in an amp you're super familiar with. Take it a step further and give us a real world data point on whether there's really a sonic difference between the E83CC and the standard JJ ECC83. I, for one, am skeptical there would be. Every JJ 12AX7 I've tried is instant blanket-over-the-amp. In some amps, more like instant fuzzy-afghan-over-the-amp.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I'd be interested to hear the results of this. You already have a good sense of how the JJ E83CC sounds in both V2 and V3 positions, in an amp you're super familiar with. Take it a step further and give us a real world data point on whether there's really a sonic difference between the E83CC and the standard JJ ECC83. I, for one, am skeptical there would be. Every JJ 12AX7 I've tried is instant blanket-over-the-amp. In some amps, more like instant fuzzy-afghan-over-the-amp.

I’ll do this tonight. I was mainly interested in hearing if these tubes didn’t have that signature woolliness (they do), and whether or not they compared favorably to the old Tesla version (they don’t). But, it’s certainly more useful to most people to know how they compare to the standard JJ ECC83.

 

[matttornado]

I'd be interested to hear the results of this. You already have a good sense of how the JJ E83CC sounds in both V2 and V3 positions, in an amp you're super familiar with. Take it a step further and give us a real world data point on whether there's really a sonic difference between the E83CC and the standard JJ ECC83. I, for one, am skeptical there would be. Every JJ 12AX7 I've tried is instant blanket-over-the-amp. In some amps, more like instant fuzzy-afghan-over-the-amp.

Is this why my DSL 40CR loaded with JJECC803s High performance (long plate) 12Ax7s sounds so dark and bassy / boomy?

 

[FleshOnGear]

Is this why my DSL 40CR loaded with JJECC803s High performance (long plate) 12Ax7s sounds so dark and bassy / boomy?

I had ECC803s in my JCM2000 around the year 2007, and I stopped using them because I thought they sounded kinda thin. That was a long time ago, though. I might not be remembering well. And it’s possible that JJ changed something in their construction since then.

Long plates don’t automatically equal fat tone. The old Amperex Bugle Boys were known to be very clear sounding, and they had long plates.

 

[Ken Bob]

Is this why my DSL 40CR loaded with JJECC803s High performance (long plate) 12Ax7s sounds so dark and bassy / boomy?

It might contribute, but I doubt that's the only culprit. I'd bet it's the circuit first, and the JJ's are just dull/dark sounding 12AX7's on top of it. I've never tried the JJ 803s long plate, but I do have experience with the Sovtek long plate and the Mullard RI long plate 12AX7. Neither sounds fatter or bassier than a short plate 12AX7 to me. In fact, neither sounds that different compared to any other 12AX7 in such a way where I'd go, "ahhh, there's that smoothness/clarity/bite/bass/whatever that the long plates give..." Nahhh.

In fact, the internet just raves about what a fantastic phase inverter the Sovtek LPS is. I've gotten to the point where I can really tell when the PI tube is something I don't like, and I definitely don't like that one at all. It sounds freaking harsh and too strident to me, like right away. The Mullard RI long plate, on the other hand, I really, really like in the PI spot, and that's what I've put in PI all my amps at present. I even prefer the plain old JJ ECC83 over the Sovtek LPS as a PI, and I'm no big fan of those. I think it's the tube, not whether it's long vs short plate.

FWIW, I have a DSL100HR, and it'll shake the house with bass if you want to. Very unlike my vintage Marshalls. What it lacks is the authoritative midrange balls the old ones have.

 

[FleshOnGear]

I'd be interested to hear the results of this. You already have a good sense of how the JJ E83CC sounds in both V2 and V3 positions, in an amp you're super familiar with. Take it a step further and give us a real world data point on whether there's really a sonic difference between the E83CC and the standard JJ ECC83. I, for one, am skeptical there would be. Every JJ 12AX7 I've tried is instant blanket-over-the-amp. In some amps, more like instant fuzzy-afghan-over-the-amp.

I went back and forth between the standard JJ ECC83 and the E83CC. If there’s a difference, it was so small that I could confuse it for my imagination. Maybe the E83CC has a slight extension in the highs, but the distortion has the same flubby, blunted signature. It’s definitely not worth the extra money, and whatever they changed in the design wasn’t enough to differentiate this tube from the ECC83.

 

[Ken Bob]

I went back and forth between the standard JJ ECC83 and the E83CC. If there’s a difference, it was so small that I could confuse it for my imagination. Maybe the E83CC has a slight extension in the highs, but the distortion has the same flubby, blunted signature. It’s definitely not worth the extra money, and whatever they changed in the design wasn’t enough to differentiate this tube from the ECC83.

I suspected as much!! @FleshOnGear, thanks for trying it and posting your result!

 

[FleshOnGear]

Last night I played an interesting combination of tubes. I put a Sylvania (long sideways plates) in V1, a Mullard mC1 in V2, and a Tesla E83CC in V3. The Sylvanias have a ton of gain, but i find their distortion tone to be too loose and fuzzy. By putting it in V1, I get the gain, but I get more of the clipping from the Mullard in V2. It’s a cool sound, though I had to turn down the normal volume a bit because of the bassiness of the Sylvania. The amp originally had a GE in V1, so I’m going to try an I63 Mullard in V1 next. That might focus the distortion a bit more.

I also tested out my smooth plate Telefunken in V2 and V3. It’s distortion is pretty smooth and creamy. I like the texture of the Mullard better. It was too smooth in V3. In that position it made the amp sound noticeably darker on top, compared to clarity of the Tesla. I also tried an Amperex Bugle Boy in V1, hoping it would focus the tone a bit pre-distortion, but it ended up sounding kinda hollow. The pick attack was missing something.

I have a few more old vintage tubes to try. More to come…

 

[svinyard]

Is this why my DSL 40CR loaded with JJECC803s High performance (long plate) 12Ax7s sounds so dark and bassy / boomy?

That’s a combination of the circuit and the combo. I have this. The overly bassy circuit is lame imo.

I will say that running it with my 1965 cab and certainly with my SG 61…the bass gets super tamed down and more usable. Those are two mid focused items that control it. If I’m running my Strat humbucker is hard to control it dry.

So…I think for more mellow blues stuff etc that bass is thick and fun and can be controlled (especially with the SG).

When playing heavier stuff, an SD-1 or Tubesceamer make a big difference simply because they natively cut the bass and boost the mids (TS more so). So while a normal Marshall will then have that classic but not fat tone with those pedals…the DSL comes back to normal with color of those cool pedals. Hence the SD-1 waza with less bass cut…tho it doesn’t sound as classic and good imo

It’s an imperfect amp imo. I like my buddies TSL JCM2000 tone wise much better…but it’s unreliable.

Sometimes I wonder if putting the BrightCap back in (it’s got none) would make it sing…but then you’d have to dial it into the brightcaps volume range for it to work and the DSL’s beauty is it’s low volume use.

I do wonder about replacing the preamp tubes like done here. 5751s are apparently nice in v1 and v2 (it has a lot of gain already in most every channel outside of the clean). Those tubes reduce it and apparently sweeten the tone but I dunno.

I don’t like throwing money at an amp that doesn’t have an ideal circuit foundation. I’m no expert tho so maybe there’s a better way without wholesale surgery

 

[Zado]

Thanks, I was about buying one.