Using modern NC lacquer to make celluloid veneer

[ELS]

I am aware that celluloid has camphor added as a plasticizer, but modern nitro lacquers have tons of other plasticizers added anyway so could I just pour some in a mold and wait for it to dry? it will probably shrink to like 1rd of the thickness but besides that, has anyone tried this?

also, I know that you are told to use pigment based "dyes" instead of dye based ... dyes for lacquer, but would a pigment still work good enough for a plastic? I was thinking of using carbon black dye.

 

[ELS]

Hopefully wont start to leak
well it looks really good rn, we'll see if it dries ok and doesnt turn to dust or something.
it was like idk... 80ml of lacquer and like maybe 2 table spoons of ground up carbon.|

the mold is just a piece of stainless, with clay borders. I greased the plate so the lacquer hopefully doesn't stick to the plate

 

[ELS]

well it started leaking slightly, the clay border split apart in one place.
it's still very wet. probably will only be dry after like 2 days.

 

[ELS]

the celluloid plate
let the hate comments roll hehe

here's the result, it was BARELY large enough to fit on the headstock, since my mold wasnt level enough and it was thinner at one end, and at that end it dried quicker. (the plate was actually glossy and nice, it was just covered with clay in the picture)
I removed it around 18 hours after I poured it, it was left in a warm room, around 80F, 25C. the plate was around 2mm thick in the thick part, the thin part dried brittle and it would crack and would be impossible to remove, so don't let it dry completely.
then I just coated it with lacquer thinner, put it on the headstock, when it stuck I used a razor to cut the outside.
then I sanded it with 80 - 180 - 400 - 1000 and the result is what you see in the 2nd pic.

things to note:
soap on the plate didn't help much with the lacquer not sticking to it.
if you use clay for the borders of the mold, take a lot of care molding it, my border split apart from the vapor pressure of the lacquer and started to leak.
the lacquer soaks trough the clay and then the clay is bonded to the plate strong.
carbon black works amazing for this

 

[kaludjerko]

Very interesting approach and thinking outside of the box.
May i ask what is your reason to choose celluloid as material vs. other plastics?

 

[ELS]

Very interesting approach and thinking outside of the box.
May i ask what is your reason to choose celluloid as material vs. other plastics?

1. its what would be used in the 50s
2. I like crappy materials that yellow, crack, shrink and age.
3. I like materials that dont sound like crap when I knock on them, even tho for a headstock vener it wouldnt matter really.
m

also with this I can make it any color I want, while I cant get liquid plastic of any other kind that I could put dyes in

 

[EJstrat&JVM]

Well, to me if you wanted the headstock that way you are doing fine.

 

[ELS]

Well, to me if you wanted the headstock that way you are doing fine

doesn't Gibson do the same thing? use a celluloid veneer on the headstock?
or today it's probably polyurethane or something.

 

[RLW59]

doesn't Gibson do the same thing? use a celluloid veneer on the headstock?
or today it's probably polyurethane or something.

In the '50s and '60s (and many reissues), Gibson used a holly veneer stained black (super fine grain that requires no filling, just a few coats of clear nitro) as the headstock overlay. On cheaper models they just filled the mahogany grain and sprayed the headstock face with black nitro.

Their modern overlays are some sort of vulcanized fiber.

Never celluloid sheet.
-------------------------------
The problem with reinventing the wheel is that you're likely to encounter the same problems the inventors did. Early celluloid (up until the '50s) was prone to decomposition. As it aged and lost plasticizers, it would break down into cellulose and nitric acid and destroy your guitar's metal parts as it crumbled away. It took 40 years of research and experimentation to come up with the right mix of plasicizers to give long stability.

The plasicizers for nitro films may not be the same as for celluloid sheets. And the longer drying time may have let the evaporating solvents carry off more plasticizers than normal.

It could be fine forever. It could be very brittle and crack off in large chunks. 5, 10, 20 years from now it could suddenly decompose.

Not trying to discourage you. It's an interesting project, and you seem energetic enough to be willing to deal with anything that might eventually happen.

And who knows? Sometimes reinventing things leads to revolution.

 

[kaludjerko]

1. its what would be used in the 50s
2. I like crappy materials that yellow, crack, shrink and age.
3. I like materials that dont sound like crap when I knock on them, even tho for a headstock vener it wouldnt matter really.
m

also with this I can make it any color I want, while I cant get liquid plastic of any other kind that I could put dyes in

Well fair enough.
Good luck.

Didn't know about Gibsons headstock, always assumed it was laquer or black veneer or both.