After playing my JCM800, I sold my Kemper

[ShatteredVitreous]

Thank you all for your replies, relevant and irrelevant LOL

@Ramo

"I said to him its like a getting doll when you can have real woman....both get the job done but one feels better than other."

That's the thing with these devices, yes you get a better feel with a real women and you don't have to listen to them nag you to death afterwards. but if you want the real experience the nagging comes with the woman. It is very much horses for courses and that's why I have not said anything negative about the device. Its great, I see its worth, it just doesn't sit well with my interpretation of what I would like to achieve.

There are a few points raised that almost, and I mean this with the upmost respect, make no sense.

"I am to old to carry large amps"

After purchasing the Kemper I bought a DXR10, foot pedal, Freqout to generate some artificial feedback, a rack case to store it in. The DXR route had no mojo for hard rock so I purchased a 4x12. There is really no loss of weight or shoe tread saved as you end up making more trips to the car. The reason I don't really buy into the "weight" reason is because for a fraction of the cost I can buy a Marshall Studio and have an authentic and responsive sound. Hell I can buy the entire range for not much more on the used market. Also as I used it to record I would have to pack it up and take it home after every rehearsal!

"Its great for recording, especially silent"
I think this is snakeoil when purchasing a Kemper. I have the JCM800, into a Two Notes Reload then using IRs I can record silently. Is it better than miking an amp? No, neither is the Kemper but for silent recording this setup absolutely annihilates the Kemper for tone in my opinion.

The ones that do make sense are studios where they need a variety of amps to record, cover bands who are unable to afford or are will to take 15 amps to every gig to sound authentic.

@Deep Purple fan

I agree going all in to get the experience is essential. Running 1 ethernet cable to the back of the room for power was really convenient, why they never built in the ability to run the guitar signal that way was baffling. In regard to profiles, The commercial side is where it is at but to be honest I bought from all the big names and apart from Choptones and Deadlight I was baffled at how the rest had such a great reputation and to be honest, Choptones and Deadlight did have issues too for example when you mute after playing their would be this strange bass fizzly that would ring out for a few seconds....ok live, bad when recording.

The one thing I did for a few months was profile my amps to see if that would give me a tonal pallet I liked. Now with the JCM800 there is a bite to the sound and when you palm mute there is this bass that just entices you in, almost like a Fump Fump kind of sound. When I profiled my amps (JCM800, JVM410h before I sold it, Silver Jubilee) all that expressiveness disappeared, the mid solo note palm mutes that jump out, just disappeared, the gain was all over the place and there were bass frequencies introduced I just couldn't get rid off.

Profiling my amps did make me understand one thing. When I first purchased the Kemper I sold my JVM and bought JVM patches so I would have some continuity with older recordings. When I loaded them up I realised they where a lot more distorted and had a lot more gain than I could ever achieve. I thought it was my inability to dial in that type of sound until I profiled my amps. I created hundred of profiles across all gain stages across all 3 amps. All sounded like a boost pedal was turned on, for example on the JCM800 with Master at 4 and Preamp at 4 it sounded very close to the profiles where the Master was 8 and the preamp was 8!

This is what made me sell it as not only was the sound inferior to the real thing, it didn't even respond like the real thing.

@Sapient

I agree with that statement as no two amps sound the same. All I will say for myself I did not expect a like for like sound, I did not expect amp in the room, I expected someone else's representation of a well miked amp.....I just never found one that I liked.

@lonewolfsx

That was how I profiled my amps, all gain stages with all variations. But it does get a bit overwhelming at times for example if you want complete control over the Kemper as you do an amp and that control is to include all knobs. That would be:
Bass 1 -10,
Treble 1-10,
Mid 1-10,
Master 1-10
Preamp - 1-10
Presence 1-10
Resonance 1-10

That's 604800 permutation's (if this is wrong its just an example) you would have to create and scroll through LOL.......RSI anyone

 

[giblesp]

All

Well after 4 years of loving the Kemper and simultaneously being frustrated with the quality of the profiles on offer I finally sold it. I know we have some Kemper lovers on this board and I am certainly not mocking the product, its a fantastic digital device, but there were in the end too many things that annoyed me about it.



Mike

I'm a Kemper user and owner of a JVM, this is a very interesting post my man.

I FULLY and I mean FULLY understand your frustrations with the Kemper. After hours, weeks and months I combined a TopJimi head with a MixBerlin cab for my high gain. I use three variants of this, and thats it.

So far, I'm recording the best distorted tones I've got in 16 years of recording.

I tried a Marshall Studio and OX Box, I wasn't impressed. I've also tried a DSL 401 and Torpedo Reload and didn't like it. However, I'm considering giving other Torpedo products a go, plus the BOSS Waza with my JVM which I got this year.

If you have any clips of your new recording setup, that would be much appreciated.

 

[giblesp]

welcome back to the analog tribe...

Not to be an AH, but his Reload still has a digital element. It's more analog for sure. But analog would be miking the amp, and then still going to a digital interface. I doubt more than a very few people have a pure analog studio these days.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@giblesp

Totally agree, there is always something digital, pedal, soundcard etc. If I had a pure analog environment I wouldn't be knocking up demos in my garage conversion LOL

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@giblesp

I can get some examples up at some point. Just in the middle of a course at the moment so writing has slowed down.

 

[Ramo]

Thank you all for your replies, relevant and irrelevant LOL

@Ramo

"I said to him its like a getting doll when you can have real woman....both get the job done but one feels better than other."

That's the thing with these devices, yes you get a better feel with a real women and you don't have to listen to them nag you to death afterwards. but if you want the real experience the nagging comes with the woman. It is very much horses for courses and that's why I have not said anything negative about the device. Its great, I see its worth, it just doesn't sit well with my interpretation of what I would like to achieve.

There are a few points raised that almost, and I mean this with the upmost respect, make no sense.

"I am to old to carry large amps"

After purchasing the Kemper I bought a DXR10, foot pedal, Freqout to generate some artificial feedback, a rack case to store it in. The DXR route had no mojo for hard rock so I purchased a 4x12. There is really no loss of weight or shoe tread saved as you end up making more trips to the car. The reason I don't really buy into the "weight" reason is because for a fraction of the cost I can buy a Marshall Studio and have an authentic and responsive sound. Hell I can buy the entire range for not much more on the used market. Also as I used it to record I would have to pack it up and take it home after every rehearsal!

"Its great for recording, especially silent"
I think this is snakeoil when purchasing a Kemper. I have the JCM800, into a Two Notes Reload then using IRs I can record silently. Is it better than miking an amp? No, neither is the Kemper but for silent recording this setup absolutely annihilates the Kemper for tone in my opinion.

The ones that do make sense are studios where they need a variety of amps to record, cover bands who are unable to afford or are will to take 15 amps to every gig to sound authentic.

@Deep Purple fan

I agree going all in to get the experience is essential. Running 1 ethernet cable to the back of the room for power was really convenient, why they never built in the ability to run the guitar signal that way was baffling. In regard to profiles, The commercial side is where it is at but to be honest I bought from all the big names and apart from Choptones and Deadlight I was baffled at how the rest had such a great reputation and to be honest, Choptones and Deadlight did have issues too for example when you mute after playing their would be this strange bass fizzly that would ring out for a few seconds....ok live, bad when recording.

The one thing I did for a few months was profile my amps to see if that would give me a tonal pallet I liked. Now with the JCM800 there is a bite to the sound and when you palm mute there is this bass that just entices you in, almost like a Fump Fump kind of sound. When I profiled my amps (JCM800, JVM410h before I sold it, Silver Jubilee) all that expressiveness disappeared, the mid solo note palm mutes that jump out, just disappeared, the gain was all over the place and there were bass frequencies introduced I just couldn't get rid off.

Profiling my amps did make me understand one thing. When I first purchased the Kemper I sold my JVM and bought JVM patches so I would have some continuity with older recordings. When I loaded them up I realised they where a lot more distorted and had a lot more gain than I could ever achieve. I thought it was my inability to dial in that type of sound until I profiled my amps. I created hundred of profiles across all gain stages across all 3 amps. All sounded like a boost pedal was turned on, for example on the JCM800 with Master at 4 and Preamp at 4 it sounded very close to the profiles where the Master was 8 and the preamp was 8!

This is what made me sell it as not only was the sound inferior to the real thing, it didn't even respond like the real thing.

@Sapient

I agree with that statement as no two amps sound the same. All I will say for myself I did not expect a like for like sound, I did not expect amp in the room, I expected someone else's representation of a well miked amp.....I just never found one that I liked.

@lonewolfsx

That was how I profiled my amps, all gain stages with all variations. But it does get a bit overwhelming at times for example if you want complete control over the Kemper as you do an amp and that control is to include all knobs. That would be:
Bass 1 -10,
Treble 1-10,
Mid 1-10,
Master 1-10
Preamp - 1-10
Presence 1-10
Resonance 1-10

That's 604800 permutation's (if this is wrong its just an example) you would have to create and scroll through LOL.......RSI anyone

yes man, its great tool but you can get lost in it like you said. I mean Eric Piterson from Testament use it for his live sound and convenience to travel light between gigs and cost less in logistics.
I mean i have not used it, dose it sound good from what i hear... ?yes

can be useful too ? Yes

do I want one ... emm no

too many buttons for me, and im not analog freak i just like simple, for band practice i use boss sd1 in too Friedman be-od and in to Marshall MG and i home for practice and recording im going to get cab sim pedal so i can skip whole mic cab thing.

in conclusion, just use what works for you and let other have what works for them. Either or them is not wrong just different

cheers

Ramo

 

[marshallmellowed]

Using digital takes some discipline, for sure. No experience with a Kemper, but I love my Fractal. I treat my Fractal like the real thing, I find an amp and cab model (+FX chain) that works for what I need and stick with it. I don't care if there are hundreds of amp models, drives, delays..., if I don't need them, I don't use them. Funny thing, our other guitar player is in the process of doing the exact opposite, moving from his 5150 III to digital. I will say that, it depends largely on what you're doing. If you're playing gigs, and need lots of versatility in your sound, digital is the way to go (IMO). If you're a stay at home player, who plays for fun, I love my tube amps. Call me needy, but I gotta have both.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@Ramo @marshallmellowed

I agree totally use what's suitable. I am a singer in a band at the moment doing originals so have no need for any rig to be honest. I play mainly at home but in all my bands apart from this one I have been the guitarist/song writer.

Convenience for a lot of people just wins. If I join a band as a guitarist after covid, I'll probably take my 2525h, 2x12 cab and pedal board. If I played anywhere that I can justify the weight I'd take the JCM.

I am in the market for 1 more amp though, but that's another thread lol.

There is a level these devices will never compete, a wall of Kempers and FRFR will never be as cool as a wall of Marshalls lol.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@giblesp

When you used the Two Notes did you use the Wall of Sound software. If so I found the stock cabs terrible apart from the 4x12 V30 Slash as I ran my SJ into it so they are made for each other.

Find the speakers made for your amp or the speakers in a cab you use and use an IR of them. I found I opted for the SM57 in Wall of Sound but depending what's you are playing don't have the mic straight on at the cone, move it to one side and it will warm up a little. This I found worked great.

I personally love the GT75s as they are a great speaker along with the V30s, I tend not to stray into other areas.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@marshallmellowed

You are right about the discipline, you require the training of a Tibetan monk to not reach for that dial, or switch that profile.

You can't beat the Jcm800 for that:

"I need more bass!"
"oh that knob does nothing"
"I need more mids!"
"oh that knob does nothing"
"fuck it ill just play..... Oh that sounds awesome"

LOL

 

[Dogs of Doom]

There is a level these devices will never compete, a wall of Kempers and FRFR will never be as cool as a wall of Marshalls lol.

but, that's not your only options...

Like I say, I use Marshall power amp's into Marshall cab's, sounded by my Kemper, using a Marshall '71 Super Lead.

If all you saw was the Marshall cab's, how would you know what I was using?

Celestion makes the guitar oriented FRFL, or whatever it's called, that's supposed to give full range, but the guitar speaker type vibe.

It's hard to convince people that have never tried this, that it's pretty right on. You'll never have the options available, at the press of a footswitch, on a standard tube head. That doesn't mean that when you play out, you have to constantly flip through all 20K profiles, every song. You pick, the 3-4 sounds from the 20K & stick w/ them.

You could pick a Fender or Mesa for your clean-cleans. Then go Marshall from there, to get the dirt. Just depends on what you want.

If all you need is a 2204, like you say, so be it. I'd probably be more apt to choose a 1987, 1959, or JMP45 type amp for my go to, one amp. I'd probably hotrod it somehow, but, I like the mid voice of the 4 holer amp's better.

Everybody has their preferences, but, when it comes to Kemper, there's a lot of different ways to use it. If you've exhausted all those (which many haven't) & it still isn't for you, then you can move on.

Everything is a compromise. Even the 2204. It's finding the compromise that works best for you, w/ the most possible benefit vs drawbacks.

The problem I see most often w/ Kemper users, is, that it has a deep learning curve & they do not exhaust everything that could get them where they want it, so they give up. I have no experience w/ fractal, or other, but, I'd bet it's pretty much the same w/ them. Most of us are guitar players, not computer programmers.

 

[marshallmellowed]

@Ramo @marshallmellowed

There is a level these devices will never compete, a wall of Kempers and FRFR will never be as cool as a wall of Marshalls lol.

Wall of Marshall's, yeah I'd take that, if someone else was moving them for me, and I was playing anywhere to accommodate that setup. Reality time, I'm guessing you could count on half of one hand (probably less), how many Marshall forum members currently gig through a wall of Marshall's. Before the onslaught of photos of stacks in basements, that's "currently gig" and "Wall of Marshalls".

 

[Crikey]

Not to be an AH, but his Reload still has a digital element. It's more analog for sure. But analog would be miking the amp, and then still going to a digital interface. I doubt more than a very few people have a pure analog studio these days.

By analog i meant simplicity versus scrolling through a multitude of presets and modelers. Aint nothin like the real thang

 

[67mike]

I'm a Kemper user and owner of a JVM, this is a very interesting post my man.

I FULLY and I mean FULLY understand your frustrations with the Kemper. After hours, weeks and months I combined a TopJimi head with a MixBerlin cab for my high gain. I use three variants of this, and thats it.

So far, I'm recording the best distorted tones I've got in 16 years of recording.

I tried a Marshall Studio and OX Box, I wasn't impressed. I've also tried a DSL 401 and Torpedo Reload and didn't like it. However, I'm considering giving other Torpedo products a go, plus the BOSS Waza with my JVM which I got this year.

If you have any clips of your new recording setup, that would be much appreciated.

Try out a 2466 through the 425 cab on ldr mode with master volume at 10.......

 

[Kinkless Tetrode]

The thing is, I don't play out, I sit at home and jam, so I like to tweak a lot. I borrowed a friend's Kemper for a few days and quickly figured out I wouldn't be happy with it because of the limitations, and I don't see any way around them. For example, he would have profiles like - "JCM8 all 10" and "JCM8 g7 b8m5t4" and so on. So I thought - why wouldn't you just profile it and then use the EQ knobs on the Kemper? Then I tried to use them - and found out that they are not at all close to what frequencies they affect on the amp - especially interactive EQ's like most of our beloved Marshalls have. It's more like - a post EQ you can use to tweak to a room, than actually affecting anything in the preamp simulation.

Another thing I didn't particularly love was its sound through a speaker cab - as expected, since the profiles use the speakers and mics as they were originally profiled with. If an exactly perfect flat response speaker existed maybe that would make up for it, but all speakers have some kind of curve and peaks to them, even the really high end hi-fi stuff, so there's no way you could get a true-to-original speaker recording out of the Kemper.
The more I play, and the more speakers I collect, the more I realize just how much of an affect the speakers have on the sound. I used to think it was 90% amp, now I'm not so sure.

With that bit of information one really has to admire Softube's approach with the Marshall JMD:1. They modeled the topography of each amp, including each amp's tone stack, instead of profiling individual amps. The effect of the brite cap responds just like the real amp as you adjust the gain.

They also simplified the interaction of cabs and power amps by using a real tube power amp driving what ever cab you want.

 

[Crikey]

Not to be an AH, but his Reload still has a digital element. It's more analog for sure. But analog would be miking the amp, and then still going to a digital interface. I doubt more than a very few people have a pure analog studio these days.

To further clarify, sorry to rankle the Kemper mafia, but..... its like wanting a Ferrari but thinking you can tweak a vw turbo gti and it will do and sound alike. To each his own. I just dont think a modeller nails every tone. Some just like tweaking stuff, setting patameters and like having 300 delays to select and its ok. Something to be ssid for plugging straight into a marshall , turning a few eq knobs and playing. And ive never worried more about lifting amps than tone. But as they say in the car biz, there is an ass for every seat

 

[Dmann]

I'll happily use modeling with a tube amp / cab, all day long. Best of everything. Why limit yourself?

Then I'll use modeling with headphones all night long.

This whole must choose one or the other is beyond ridiculous, and y'all just missing out.

 

[lonewolfsx]

@lonewolfsx

That was how I profiled my amps, all gain stages with all variations. But it does get a bit overwhelming at times for example if you want complete control over the Kemper as you do an amp and that control is to include all knobs. That would be:
Bass 1 -10,
Treble 1-10,
Mid 1-10,
Master 1-10
Preamp - 1-10
Presence 1-10
Resonance 1-10

That's 604800 permutation's (if this is wrong its just an example) you would have to create and scroll through LOL.......RSI anyone

Yeah - that's an insane amount of possible variations for us - but for a computer not so bad. That's why I was.. complaining I guess... that after being out for 8+ years now I'm surprised that Kemper hasn't created some kind of firmware or even a new type of profiler that can take those multiples of the same amp, and intelligently connect the on-profiler EQ controls and such to transition between those, emulating the real amp. What I mean is - and it makes the time to create profiles insanely long - but give us like an advanced profiler setting that allows us to record the amp at different settings and then store that as one large profile, so when in "play" mode, the user only sees the one profile and the controls on the face respond more closely to the read amp.

If they ever did that, look out tube amps, or at the very least it'd be a lot closer and easier to use for studio tweakers like myself (and I imagine a good chunk of Kemper owners would like this too)

With that bit of information one really has to admire Softube's approach with the Marshall JMD:1. They modeled the topography of each amp, including each amp's tone stack, instead of profiling individual amps. The effect of the brite cap responds just like the real amp as you adjust the gain.

They also simplified the interaction of cabs and power amps by using a real tube power amp driving what ever cab you want.

Yes exactly! That's why I was so surprised that Kemper hasn't put that technology in the hands of end users. They totally could. I think Kempers sell well enough that they figure why rush it, they'll release that feature in Kemper 2 whenver sales of the Kemper Floorboard slow down.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

I borrowed a friend's Kemper for a few days and quickly figured out I wouldn't be happy with it because of the limitations, and I don't see any way around them. For example, he would have profiles like - "JCM8 all 10" and "JCM8 g7 b8m5t4" and so on. So I thought - why wouldn't you just profile it and then use the EQ knobs on the Kemper? Then I tried to use them - and found out that they are not at all close to what frequencies they affect on the amp - especially interactive EQ's like most of our beloved Marshalls have. It's more like - a post EQ you can use to tweak to a room, than actually affecting anything in the preamp simulation.

you simply can not "borrow" a Kemper for a couple days & know much anything about it...

For instance, there are a few things here, that, you don't seem to understand.

If you go into the Kemper editor, which is in Rig Manager, it has 4 stages of EQ. You can make it so that the EQ (dials), is like a post EQ, like on a mixing console, or... pre-amp, so it responds like your amp's tonestack. There's also a pre (like a pedal) EQ you can add, you can add one in the effects loop, or use a mixing board EQ, choosing through a bunch of EQ types.

Kemper is one of those devices that, hell, I've owned mine for a couple years & I don't even know ½ of what it can do. 2-3 days? Not to be insulting, but, that will make most owners laugh.

There's a lot to it, but, once you get the settings the way you want, it's simple as plug-n-play. But, you have to dig in 1st, to learn how to set the thing up correctly. In a few days, I doubt that you even scratched the surface...

 

[giblesp]

To further clarify, sorry to rankle the Kemper mafia, but..... its like wanting a Ferrari but thinking you can tweak a vw turbo gti and it will do and sound alike. To each his own. I just dont think a modeller nails every tone. Some just like tweaking stuff, setting patameters and like having 300 delays to select and its ok. Something to be ssid for plugging straight into a marshall , turning a few eq knobs and playing. And ive never worried more about lifting amps than tone. But as they say in the car biz, there is an ass for every seat

I'm certainly not the Kemper mafia. I always reach for my Marshall for practice, band practice, gig.

Not to rattle the digital mafia, but digital will never sound exactly like analog. But the convenience of digital, the fact that at the moment its the best recording solution I've found, means that its in my studio.

I can't mike cabs from home. I tried the Reload and OX Box, they didn't work for me. If I discover a load box that beat the Kemper for recording, I'll sell the Kemper. Hasn't happened yet.