After playing my JCM800, I sold my Kemper

[giblesp]

you simply can not "borrow" a Kemper for a couple days & know much anything about it...

For instance, there are a few things here, that, you don't seem to understand.

If you go into the Kemper editor, which is in Rig Manager, it has 4 stages of EQ. You can make it so that the EQ (dials), is like a post EQ, like on a mixing console, or... pre-amp, so it responds like your amp's tonestack. There's also a pre (like a pedal) EQ you can add, you can add one in the effects loop, or use a mixing board EQ, choosing through a bunch of EQ types.

Kemper is one of those devices that, hell, I've owned mine for a couple years & I don't even know ½ of what it can do. 2-3 days? Not to be insulting, but, that will make most owners laugh.

There's a lot to it, but, once you get the settings the way you want, it's simple as plug-n-play. But, you have to dig in 1st, to learn how to set the thing up correctly. In a few days, I doubt that you even scratched the surface...

People approach it like a modeler, and it isn't one. It has to be approached differently, and its a bit of gear that you can approach your own way.

But I'll add, I fully understand why someone may try it out, look at the price tag and get a used Torpedo Reload instead.

 

[lonewolfsx]

you simply can not "borrow" a Kemper for a couple days & know much anything about it...

For instance, there are a few things here, that, you don't seem to understand.

If you go into the Kemper editor, which is in Rig Manager, it has 4 stages of EQ. You can make it so that the EQ (dials), is like a post EQ, like on a mixing console, or... pre-amp, so it responds like your amp's tonestack. There's also a pre (like a pedal) EQ you can add, you can add one in the effects loop, or use a mixing board EQ, choosing through a bunch of EQ types.

Kemper is one of those devices that, hell, I've owned mine for a couple years & I don't even know ½ of what it can do. 2-3 days? Not to be insulting, but, that will make most owners laugh.

There's a lot to it, but, once you get the settings the way you want, it's simple as plug-n-play. But, you have to dig in 1st, to learn how to set the thing up correctly. In a few days, I doubt that you even scratched the surface...

Yeah, I didn't claim to know everything about it in detail and like I said, some of the profiles had some really fantastic tones. Like I said in an earlier post, I think the problem was more with the marketing team - the Kemper was never designed to replace a studio full of tube amps, but their marketing/copy writers wrote it as if it could essentially create digital duplicates of all your tube amps. It's not really set up for that, it's not emulating the circuit as a whole, only one specific setting of that circuit, which is why it's necessary to have multiple profiles of the same amp at different settings.

I know you can change what position the EQ is in the chain, but setting the EQ to be part of the preamp does NOT work like your tube amp's tonestack. It's an approximation that can be applied to the majority of guitar amps. I'm not saying that it isn't useful, I'm just saying that it doesn't work like a real tube amp's tonestack. If it did, people wouldn't be creating multiple profiles of the same amps.

Also, I only had it for a couple of days, but I'm a computer engineer, I don't need a year to figure out the interface or what its limitations are. At the same time, I've frequently said that even owning simple tube amps you really need to spend at least a couple of months with it to truly understand it and get the best out of it. I'm sure if I owned a Kemper I'd have refined some great tones over the years with all of the great features, profiles, effects and other techniques to make it sound better and better as I go, and I'd be very happy with it. I was only commenting that it's not going to create an identical replacement for a real tube amp, even if it subjectively sounds just as good, it's still different.

 

[marshallmellowed]

Yeah - that's an insane amount of possible variations for us - but for a computer not so bad. That's why I was.. complaining I guess... that after being out for 8+ years now I'm surprised that Kemper hasn't created some kind of firmware or even a new type of profiler that can take those multiples of the same amp, and intelligently connect the on-profiler EQ controls and such to transition between those, emulating the real amp. What I mean is - and it makes the time to create profiles insanely long - but give us like an advanced profiler setting that allows us to record the amp at different settings and then store that as one large profile, so when in "play" mode, the user only sees the one profile and the controls on the face respond more closely to the read amp.

If they ever did that, look out tube amps, or at the very least it'd be a lot closer and easier to use for studio tweakers like myself (and I imagine a good chunk of Kemper owners would like this too)




Yes exactly! That's why I was so surprised that Kemper hasn't put that technology in the hands of end users. They totally could. I think Kempers sell well enough that they figure why rush it, they'll release that feature in Kemper 2 whenver sales of the Kemper Floorboard slow down.

That's pretty much what a good modeler is, if you choose to use it that way. Run an Axe Fx through a tube power amp and guitar cab, and it's like a JMD:1 on steroids.

 

[Shane Stevenson]

I’m late to the party on this thread but to the OP, your opening statement was an interesting read for me and I can relate.

I’m with “silent stage” band right now and my tube amps just don’t work out too well with this particular band. I have used the Kemper but I like the Headrush Pedalboard better. I now own and use the HR on a daily basis and it’s doing fine with this band.

After having experience with good modelers and real amps I’ve concluded that real tube amps can never be replaced...even with the the technology of 2020-2021. Sure, modelers can get close I guess, but they just don’t feel completely right. There are folks here who can better articulate what I mean.

Whenever I get the chance to open up my SV with a conventional blues or rock band I have a GREAT time!!!

 

[anitoli]

I am staying out of this Kemper/Tube debate.
I just gonna read.

 

[solarburn]

If a Kemper can do this with a phone recording I'm in. I don't want it manageable by 1&0's. I want to be the Fuck up...by my fingersz.

Thor's Hammer. 2203 JMP

 

[solarburn]

Or if you're a boring player? Amp ain't gonna matter. Have fun. Shouldn't be this hard. I'm fine with One channel. Options are for after the set.

 

[uselessoldman]

I will second your choice/opinion and decision as I have both originals and IR/Simulators and I agree there not the same, not even close in truth. I bought some pro amplifiers, Crest Crown and QSC and I own a stack of cabs with all the main favs, V30s G12Ts G2Hs and no the IR does not really give you the same buzz, as for amp emulation, who needs all those amps? Like you, once you have the 800 u dont need anything else I also have the TSL and MG as I started on them and have upgraded as fund became available and I found what I wanted at the right price.

What I found with IR as against the originals especially the Vintage 30s was detail, the IR was missing a lot of fine detail that was present in the speakers, that was what put me off digital.

As for hiding all those cables? I use pipe insulation that stuff u use for insulating your central heating, works a dream and looks ok, certainly cleans up a rats nest

 

[giblesp]

I am staying out of this Kemper/Tube debate.
I just gonna read.

If this were the Kemper forum, toys would be thrown out of prams about now.

The grown ups are happy to appreciate both.

 

[Guitarpete]

All

Well after 4 years of loving the Kemper and simultaneously being frustrated with the quality of the profiles on offer I finally sold it. I know we have some Kemper lovers on this board and I am certainly not mocking the product, its a fantastic digital device, but there were in the end too many things that annoyed me about it.

My frustrations:

Variation in profilers was drastic so if you wanted continuity between recorded tracks you needed to stay within a very small offerings from various profilers who all profiled the same (mixing Deadlight with Choptones was fine, MBritt with Top Jimi was fine but mix any of them up and its night and day in terms of application)

Having to surgically eq every profile to remove the over hyped bass, fizz or with some profiles a flat and apparent lack of body, to only thin the sound out too much was frustrating.

Stacking profiles just turned the results to mush.

Rig Manager since the introduction of an editor became so unstable from one minute to the next you could not use it. Performance mode, which is what I used to organise my patches by song, just did not work since version 6.

i took stock and decided to really question if I liked it enough to slow down my workflow. After realising I only used the JCM800 and AFD100 profiles I decided to try the real thing.

Off I went and purchased a JCM800 2203x (£700), Two Notes Reload (£500), a Slash wah (£150) and a GTOD (£80) plus a Twin City (£80) so I could split my signal to the JCM800 and my SJ.

A few things I noticed which was immediately apparent:

The lack of options had a huge impact on workload. No longer was I scrolling through thousands of profiles to find what would fit.

What sounded good out of the speaker sounded good in the mix. The overhyped profiles sounded amazing in isolation, to much fighting when recorded.

No longer, beyond a simple low pass, did I need to surgically eq the guitars.

Stacking guitars just made the sound huge and using the eq to make space for certain frequencies was quick and easy.

Sound experimentation was zero. Want a different delay? well buy it and really think about if you want to spend the cash rather than scrolling for hours and never getting anything done because it is all freely avaliable.

Its not all amazing.

I now have a clutter of cables, the fizzy sound from the reload is annoying at times but its a much better work flow and.......well thats it. Tucked the cables under the rug, put my headphones on when writing and I am in tone heaven.

I can honestly say at this point in time, and don't take my word for it, I am done with the digital world. With only the Axe left for me to try I really don't see the attraction in having so much choice whilst having very little time.

Now I just need a modern voiced Marshall to compliment my JCM800 and SJ that is not a JVM.

Boring story I know but I thought I would be nervous or reluctant on the day to sell, definitely not the case.

You know whats better than convenience, the sound of a tube amp....don't compromise

Mike

Have to say that despite advancements in the digital world, a valve amp has the real mojo.

 

[malice95]

Used tube amps in the beginning, went Kemper thinking that's the future and sold my tube amps. Sounded great but was missing something. Could never get a good in the room feel out of it. Plus I was always tweaking the thing. Way to many options for my brain. Sold it, went fully back to Tube. Never again. I have an HX Stomp for late night practice but I am 90% all British made tube amp now.

 

[andyg_prs]

I'm a Kemper user and owner of a JVM, this is a very interesting post my man.

I FULLY and I mean FULLY understand your frustrations with the Kemper. After hours, weeks and months I combined a TopJimi head with a MixBerlin cab for my high gain. I use three variants of this, and thats it.

So far, I'm recording the best distorted tones I've got in 16 years of recording.

I tried a Marshall Studio and OX Box, I wasn't impressed. I've also tried a DSL 401 and Torpedo Reload and didn't like it. However, I'm considering giving other Torpedo products a go, plus the BOSS Waza with my JVM which I got this year.

If you have any clips of your new recording setup, that would be much appreciated.

Interesting as I owned a JVM years ago, I have a Kemper (up for trade) and an AX8....and an Engl Ironball with a pedalboard of other drives, a 2 x 12 but also a Torpedo CaptorX

With my prog metal band the Kemper was great...I had just the right sound dialled in, could get it consistently at gigs / festivals. I have a really bad back so the lack of weight was good for me. I also enjoy the discipline of no guitar on stage until the monitors are turned on by FoH. The main thing here, particularly in a 2 guitar band where the sound guy doesn't know (or care) about your band/songs.....mic'ing a guitar cab is so hit and miss, digital makes it far easier to control your sound/volume. Even nudging a master volume on the amp, or volume pedal on the board with a tube amp, you can affect the tone....whereas with digital it's pretty much linear.

I love the tone of tubes but not the weight of heads/cabs or inconsistency of mic'ing. I've not had a chance to use it in anger yet, but the idea of the CaptorX is to be able to use my Engl Ironball (lunchbox style amp) without a cab = less weight, no mic'ing issues.

Under the influence of the other guitarist in a couple of my bands, who is pro level....and happens to use an AX8, and tends to use one patch, with a drive pedal on or off...and the volume knob and playing dynamics to get clean to thrash out of the same set up......I'm actually looking to trade the Kemper set up for one really nice amp....not sure what it might be yet! When it's plexi style, then you need a pedal for full metal....when it's metal, you need a switcher to put a plexi style pedal over the clean channel.

I copied this quote as on my wish list would be a lunchbox version of the JVM....it's a truly astonishing amp in terms of flexibility.....

I used to use a TSL122 for a reggae band and for me it had the best clean ever! However, it had that main board failure thing, had it repaired...it was still too noisy, even got it shipped to MK where the factory said it was working as intended...but it was way too noisy on clean to be used live....so it hit the dust.

I'd love to try a SLO30....and a Suhr PT15IR......in fact Engl were supposed to release an IR version of the Ironball...but I cancelled my order after waiting for almost a year...

Apologies for my many tangents

Cheers,
Andy

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

All

I agree with all views as its a very personal thing. If it works for you fantastic, but if not move on. I don't think tube amps will ever be replaced, that doesn't mean the comparative sound isn't good, no different that Quorn Chicken, it's not chicken but it's good enough if you are veggie. With the amount of hex core CPUs available, the sheer amount of memory supported they can't make a VST that comes close, so I don't think anything else will until the code is written.

Each has there place, when I was in an industrial band I used Guitar Rig from NI. I could do with that things an amp would never be able to achieve, but it suited the music as tone was not something that mattered (think NIN) . With the Kemper on a clean Fender with the delays, reverb and modulation avaliable I could do things that would cost thousands in pedals, those lush Pink Floyd/Radiohead sounds, but that kind of sound is not what I use for writing.

Can't agree with the Kemper forum statement, they are a cracking bunch of people and are extremely helpful if you have RTFM.

It's blossomed into an interesting thread this

Miks

 

[patrice]

Years ago I ditched my Axe Fx1. Now I have 7 Marshall heads...

 

[yafal]

All

Well after 4 years of loving the Kemper and simultaneously being frustrated with the quality of the profiles on offer I finally sold it. I know we have some Kemper lovers on this board and I am certainly not mocking the product, its a fantastic digital device, but there were in the end too many things that annoyed me about it.

My frustrations:

Variation in profilers was drastic so if you wanted continuity between recorded tracks you needed to stay within a very small offerings from various profilers who all profiled the same (mixing Deadlight with Choptones was fine, MBritt with Top Jimi was fine but mix any of them up and its night and day in terms of application)

Having to surgically eq every profile to remove the over hyped bass, fizz or with some profiles a flat and apparent lack of body, to only thin the sound out too much was frustrating.

Stacking profiles just turned the results to mush.

Rig Manager since the introduction of an editor became so unstable from one minute to the next you could not use it. Performance mode, which is what I used to organise my patches by song, just did not work since version 6.

i took stock and decided to really question if I liked it enough to slow down my workflow. After realising I only used the JCM800 and AFD100 profiles I decided to try the real thing.

Off I went and purchased a JCM800 2203x (£700), Two Notes Reload (£500), a Slash wah (£150) and a GTOD (£80) plus a Twin City (£80) so I could split my signal to the JCM800 and my SJ.

A few things I noticed which was immediately apparent:

The lack of options had a huge impact on workload. No longer was I scrolling through thousands of profiles to find what would fit.

What sounded good out of the speaker sounded good in the mix. The overhyped profiles sounded amazing in isolation, to much fighting when recorded.

No longer, beyond a simple low pass, did I need to surgically eq the guitars.

Stacking guitars just made the sound huge and using the eq to make space for certain frequencies was quick and easy.

Sound experimentation was zero. Want a different delay? well buy it and really think about if you want to spend the cash rather than scrolling for hours and never getting anything done because it is all freely avaliable.

Its not all amazing.

I now have a clutter of cables, the fizzy sound from the reload is annoying at times but its a much better work flow and.......well thats it. Tucked the cables under the rug, put my headphones on when writing and I am in tone heaven.

I can honestly say at this point in time, and don't take my word for it, I am done with the digital world. With only the Axe left for me to try I really don't see the attraction in having so much choice whilst having very little time.

Now I just need a modern voiced Marshall to compliment my JCM800 and SJ that is not a JVM.

Boring story I know but I thought I would be nervous or reluctant on the day to sell, definitely not the case.

You know whats better than convenience, the sound of a tube amp....don't compromise

Mike

Hi ! Try a DSL. Worked every time for me.

 

[Neptical]

I saved myself A LOT of time and money keeping my trusty ole POD Pro rackmount. STILL a fantastic sounding unit and easy to dial in. The old school way of using knobs instead of scrolling through menus is CAKE. I also had purchased the POD X3 Pro rackmount that I still own which does have a menu but still quite easy and sounds great.

I still use both for recording through my AI and they still hold their own easily.

They've always scratched that itch in sending me too far down the digital rabbit hole.

 

[Rumy73]

I have often wondered about the whole "but it's not real" argument. I suppose it's the only objection left for some people to fall back on.

The lady doth protest too much . . .

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

Andy

If you can go silent on stage, if it my band did when I was a guitar player the Kemper would be my first choice due to the sheer amount of routing options. You do need to take care of that back, completely agree.

The Two Notes Live would be my purchase for live to get that consistent sound from the JCM. Then I can bring a cab or use the house one for monitoring. It does become a rabbit hole too as you then think, "well I need to attenuate the JCM, oh the Live doesn't do that, so I need the Reload as the Captor only takes it down by 20db. OK so not I need a Two Notes Reload for attenuation (heavy beast) and a Live to provide the cab emulation as the Reload doesn't do this" aahhh it all gets out of control.

I think this is what lunchboxes come in really handy for. The ability to achieve a cranked sound without blowing peoples heads off lol.

A lunchbox JVM would be on my absolute wish list. There is something I found funny. When I gigged my JVM I was always looking for something lighter and blamed the weight on the components supporting the complexity of the amp. I have picked up so many 100watt amps that have felt so light so I assumed the JCM would be light too..... No chance, thing is heavy. Made me respect the build of the JVM a lot more.

I do want one more amp that's more modern though. The SJ is great but I find it used very little now. The JCM is just a beast but very classic sounding. I would like to compliment the JCM with a more modern voiced amp that's not the JVM........ Although it probably will end up being that amp.

Cheers for the reply bud.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@Frodebro

"what's real" is as subjective as the sound. Some people may miss the glow of the tubes, the look and feel you get from owning a tube amp, the connection you have to an amp which seems missing with digital gear, the purchasing of pedals rather than putting in a feature request and waiting 12 months for it to be implemented then updates for another year until it sounds decent by which point you have moved on in your musical requirements.

Last night I built my first pedal board in 4 years, and I loved it. Its one of the reason I got into guitar, testing amps, buying pedals, reading gear reviews.

Tone chasing is more fun when buying gear than scrolling endlessly through patches.

 

[Rumy73]

Hey boss, your sentiments are meaningful and your experience with digital is shared by me and others, given the feedback here. I tried a bunch of stuff and ultimately simplified my studio and live setups. I have a SJ, fender deluxe reverb for cleans and a mesa triple crown. Basically, classic, clean and modern. I use two notes torpedo for silent recording but also still mic up stuff, as a toneseeker you know it depends. Given these limits, I am able to be more efficient in my own writing/recording or working with others. I try to think simplest path: which guitar les paul, tele, strat, etc.? Do a I want a pedal for color? Then the amp for the main tone.

Players I record vibe with this flow better most of the time. On occasion, precovid, there have been guys wedded to their digital profiling rig. I say fine. I record it and use a radial twin cities to get a clean DI. Afterward, for example, I show the player a reamped sound of his strat going through a carbon copy into a cranked deluxe reverb or what have you. The response is generally: let's use that instead.

For live gigs where many sounds are needed, I always thought a good pedalboard with a nice amp platform was modeling. Playing a bunch of covers, I liked what boss did with those ME-50, ME-80 multi sound units. They had knobs that could be turned on the fly at a gig. I contrast these tactile units with units that operate via menus. Sure the latter are fine in studio where one has time, but live it seems like a nightmare to tweak.

But excuse all this spiel, I am pleased you are loving your jcm. That was one of my first amps. A real delight and more versatile than people realize. Make use of the low input with a single coil guitar for a nice, chimey vox-ish sound. Dip some of the mids out to taste. The high gain works great with overdrives and wah pedals. A very musical piece of gear.