After playing my JCM800, I sold my Kemper

[Dmann]

Kinda reminds me of my great grand pa. Yea we could all look at our phone, conveniently see the weather and forecast, current news, etc all live in real time, up to date to the minute... nope he has to wait for the news paper the next morning because digital just isn't the same and he wants to read news not program a computer.

..... sorry just amuses me the resistance some people have to options and the refusal to see the benefits, because no other reason than narrow minded stubbornness.

I really would like to know why so many think you have to choose one over the other or that a digital offering must give you an exact or better experience than a tube amp to be relevant.

I think y'all should look at it as separate tools that can be used as needed to achieve tone goals and nothing more instead of treating it like a competition and that if you choose digital you must therefore sell off all your analog gear or vice versa....

This isn't sports. Its music. Its not a competition. The true purpose of an amplifier is to amplify your guitar so people can hear it anyways. The rest is just treatment to the signal, aka effects....

 

[solarburn]

 

[jgab]

I ditched my pedals and learned how to get the most out of the least. My Gibson SG (w/ Dimarzio Super Distortion in bridge) is plugged straight into the JCM 800 w/ 4x12 Celestion Blackbacks.

It's all the tone I need.

 

[solarburn]

I ditched my pedals and learned how to get the most out of the least. My Gibson SG (w/ Dimarzio Super Distortion in bridge) is plugged straight into the JCM 800 w/ 4x12 Celestion Blackbacks.

It's all the tone I need.

Absolutely.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

Haha wordy, what do you want us to do? That shit Steve Vai nonsense from the 90s where you try to make your guitar talk or should we all do what you have done, condense our sentences to the point none of it has any relevance to the subject.

What does playing ability have to do with anything in this discussion? You assume because I can string a sentence together I can't play. If you are basing it on the level of education, by the structure of your sentences you are a very proficient guitarist.

If being a dumb arse is any measure of being a proficient musician here is a list for you:

https://www.liveabout.com/musicians-with-college-degrees-2898453

Like all things in life if it's not for you just don't contribute, no need to try and insult people or be a smart arse, you just end up looking like a dumb arse. Enough people have said the discussion is interesting to them, so let it be.

Have a wonderful evening.

 

[Neale Dunham]

Some Excellent points there Shattered and a bloody good read if I might add....!!

Ive never owned a Kemper but my brother has one and he complains of exactly the same issues you have outlined.

Spot on with the Fractal assumptions also, The guy that designed the Fractal stuff is a complete knob and the forum is a very hostile place. I once had a thread with 19000 hits after basically saying his products were shit, although, by my own admission not setting the Axe Fx up correctly initially. I guess I asked for that but nevertheless guys on there don't suffer fools.

Where the Axe falls down for me though is...... Due to the complexity of the unit, it can be a bugger to set up how you like it (each to their own of course) You can make it as simple or as complex as you like.

I read the first few pages of the manual when I received my axe fx and all I got from it was FRFR was the future. So I purchased a $1000 FRFR system and fucking hated it!!!

What a shit sound that is! .......... Now thats a totally unrealistic guitar tone if wanna hear one!!!

I spent 6 months wondering where I was going wrong before I realised I could use conventional speakers by turning off a few features in side the box.

That done, I then embarked on a amp by amp test by test. A 1:1 comparison of every piece of gear I had.

At the time my Marshall Satriani Rig was my main unit. I disconnected the pre amp in the Marshall and connected the AXE fx 3. I use identical settings on both the AXE fx and Marshall. Could not tell the difference. The sound is EXACTLY the same. Not flat, not sterile, not lacking anything...... its absolutely like playing the real deal. Soon after, I sold my main rig.

Since then, every piece of gear I own has Gone. My vintage Marshall. My Two Rock. My VoxAc30 and My Fender Bassman. Just Not Required.

For the 1-2% difference if that, in tone between the amps, (which can easily be made up in pot and component tolerance alone) its just not worth it.

For anyone that thinks the Axe fx is sterile or lacks character....... Either you haven't played and set up the Axe 3 correctly or you need to upgrade your gear.

Needs to be said though that I only use my axe live. Ive never had the chance to record with it. I will do soon. This is maybe where the Kemper excels over the Axe. |I cannot say.|

What I can say though is, I started out using a Fryette Valve amplifier to power my EJ1250 speakers. Until I went back to Matrix amps........ Now, and I do not enjoy saying this one bit....... The solid state amp pisses all over every Valve amp I have tried with my axe!!

Go Figure??

I tried all of the following:

Mesa 50/50 and 2:90 Fryette Two Fifty Two. Two Ninety Two and Marshall EL34 50/50

The Power amp modelling is so accurate and so good in the AXE FX that a SS amp is all you need. There, I said it. Shame on me.

The machines have taken over.......

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@jgab

Too right bud

 

[andyg_prs]

Let's not let this descend into digital bad / tube good. What do you think happens to your tube sound coming out of your speakers before it hits the audience? It gets mic'd normally and goes through a digital desk and a digital PA. Similarly when recording.

Personally for me the stage to PA aspect is the most fraught with risk. To date, I've had more luck doing that with digital. I've used analogue and digital on tour and in the studio....I'm not trying to get into the d*ck swinging thing....but this is a forum...meant for discussion...so suggesting that people talking about their sound....or using digital has any relevance to their playing ability is idiotic.

Absolutely I've met people from forums who seem to know everything and are incredibly bad players.

Equally there are many gifted players who are super techy / geeky.

Suggesting people don't get into the detail on a forum is like telling someone not read in a library...

Peace and love...
Andy

 

[solarburn]

Haha wordy, what do you want us to do? That shit Steve Vai nonsense from the 90s where you try to make your guitar talk or should we all do what you have done, condense our sentences to the point none of it has any relevance to the subject.

What does playing ability have to do with anything in this discussion? You assume because I can string a sentence together I can't play. If you are basing it on the level of education, by the structure of your sentences you are a very proficient guitarist.

If being a dumb arse is any measure of being a proficient musician here is a list for you:

https://www.liveabout.com/musicians-with-college-degrees-2898453

Like all things in life if it's not for you just don't contribute, no need to try and insult people or be a smart arse, you just end up looking like a dumb arse. Enough people have said the discussion is interesting to them, so let it be.

Have a wonderful evening.

No man. Don't consider you a dumb ass and Fuck SV.

I don't worry how I look to anyone here. Sometimes I get tired of words that have no mileage. However I do like your spunk. More than most on this thread.

What I don't like is fool's that say whatever yet can't play a lick. Happens all the time on these threads.

I'm not policincing it but I don't mind calling a mouthy prick out.

I'm not insulting you. Your words only matter if you can even play. Most don't ask and follow stupid advice. Search the internet if matter.

I already played away the beginnings of this thread. And I'm mediocre. Yet? I feel no ill will towards you. I like your spunk.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@Neale Dunham

Haha I wonder if it was your post I read. I went on the Kemper forum and it was very much an arm around your shoulder to help you along (to a degree) but I read a few Fractual posts and it was extremely aggressive. No one wanted to help, just berate the poster. I also read the post where the owner of Fractual basically said his device profiles amps when it doesn't (apologies if this is incorrect it was 4 years ago) and made some completely incorrect assumptions of the Kemper, very negative. If you have to slag off a product to make yours look better then your product can't be that good, quality stands up on its own.

The Fractal stuff really does intrique me and if I knew someone with one I'd definitely be interested in trying it out. I would never rule out owning one as I like playing with gear.

FRFR sounded stale and uninspiring, worse sound I had heard. The Kemper sounded much better through a cab, by an absolute mile though. I remember the other guitarist bought a DSL100 and I couldn't put the thing down, loved the sound, made my Kemper sound dull afterwards. I then bought a DSL40CR, sounded great, cut through the mix like a knife but went back to my Kemper.

Good you found your sound man, doesn't matter how its delivered if you are enjoying. Going from tubes to AXE through a solid state may get you shot on this forum haha....... But man if it sounds good, it sounds good.

Skynet in digital guitar form.

 

[Neale Dunham]

I feel it's correct to say that we should not let this descend into a Digital/Analogue debate.

Each has their place.

As Dmann said its Music not sport.

Everything is subjective. However, I would hope on here that most can recognise a shit guitar sound from a great one right?

And that's where I come in.

People that refer to high end modelling devices as Flat or Non responsive or 2 dimensional, need to wake up, and realise that the machines are not far behind, and will supercede Valve amps eventually in my humble opinion.

For Example, I ask you this: Name me a world beating amplifier that Marshall have made (The So-called Grandaddy of all amps) in the last ten years or so?? Please list your answer below:

I have been an Avid Supporter of Valve amps for many years but the tide has changed and things in the digital world sound superior to those in the real world. My Choice.

In my opinion why has Marshall not made a decent amp? Because its simply not possible. Good Valves are extinct and the technology has reached the end of the line.

Modelling is in its infancy comparatively. Give it another twenty years and see where we are then.

Thats all.

 

[solarburn]

Let's not let this descend into digital bad / tube good. What do you think happens to your tube sound coming out of your speakers before it hits the audience? It gets mic'd normally and goes through a digital desk and a digital PA. Similarly when recording.

Personally for me the stage to PA aspect is the most fraught with risk. To date, I've had more luck doing that with digital. I've used analogue and digital on tour and in the studio....I'm not trying to get into the d*ck swinging thing....but this is a forum...meant for discussion...so suggesting that people talking about their sound....or using digital has any relevance to their playing ability is idiotic.

Absolutely I've met people from forums who seem to know everything and are incredibly bad players.

Equally there are many gifted players who are super techy / geeky.

Suggesting people don't get into the detail on a forum is like telling someone not read in a library...

Peace and love...
Andy

Peace and love? Detail? Library? Soon these terms will be gone. And you push them as if???

Grab that neck. Shut your mouth and say sumpt'n. No EPenis involved.

 

[SuperFleeky]

All

Well after 4 years of loving the Kemper and simultaneously being frustrated with the quality of the profiles on offer I finally sold it. I know we have some Kemper lovers on this board and I am certainly not mocking the product, its a fantastic digital device, but there were in the end too many things that annoyed me about it.

My frustrations:

Variation in profilers was drastic so if you wanted continuity between recorded tracks you needed to stay within a very small offerings from various profilers who all profiled the same (mixing Deadlight with Choptones was fine, MBritt with Top Jimi was fine but mix any of them up and its night and day in terms of application)

Having to surgically eq every profile to remove the over hyped bass, fizz or with some profiles a flat and apparent lack of body, to only thin the sound out too much was frustrating.

Stacking profiles just turned the results to mush.

Rig Manager since the introduction of an editor became so unstable from one minute to the next you could not use it. Performance mode, which is what I used to organise my patches by song, just did not work since version 6.

i took stock and decided to really question if I liked it enough to slow down my workflow. After realising I only used the JCM800 and AFD100 profiles I decided to try the real thing.

Off I went and purchased a JCM800 2203x (£700), Two Notes Reload (£500), a Slash wah (£150) and a GTOD (£80) plus a Twin City (£80) so I could split my signal to the JCM800 and my SJ.

A few things I noticed which was immediately apparent:

The lack of options had a huge impact on workload. No longer was I scrolling through thousands of profiles to find what would fit.

What sounded good out of the speaker sounded good in the mix. The overhyped profiles sounded amazing in isolation, to much fighting when recorded.

No longer, beyond a simple low pass, did I need to surgically eq the guitars.

Stacking guitars just made the sound huge and using the eq to make space for certain frequencies was quick and easy.

Sound experimentation was zero. Want a different delay? well buy it and really think about if you want to spend the cash rather than scrolling for hours and never getting anything done because it is all freely avaliable.

Its not all amazing.

I now have a clutter of cables, the fizzy sound from the reload is annoying at times but its a much better work flow and.......well thats it. Tucked the cables under the rug, put my headphones on when writing and I am in tone heaven.

I can honestly say at this point in time, and don't take my word for it, I am done with the digital world. With only the Axe left for me to try I really don't see the attraction in having so much choice whilst having very little time.

Now I just need a modern voiced Marshall to compliment my JCM800 and SJ that is not a JVM.

Boring story I know but I thought I would be nervous or reluctant on the day to sell, definitely not the case.

You know whats better than convenience, the sound of a tube amp....don't compromise

Mike

Congrats on the JCM800! Your story solidifies my view of digital rigs given the similar experience I've had... I've tied them all, Helix, Kemper, Axe FX, and while they all recorded nicely in certain situations, they were a mess live or at rehearsal. I wanted to love them and needed that convenience SO bad (just bringing a pedal board to practice and shows), but the tweaking was never-ending and the feel was never completely there. I did not get rid of any of my tube amps, but I eventually sold all the modelers and now keep a Strymon Iridium in the bag as a backup. It's amp-like as far as dialing in your tone, sounds nearly as good as the high-dollar rigs (in a live scenario), and I've played shows with it before, so I know it will get me through in a pinch. As far as recording, the Two Notes Torpedo Captor X makes it so easy with any tube amp; very wise investment.

Another testimony for the greatness of the JCM800 here as well. I had the JVM Satriani, and it's a great amp, but I found myself only on the crunch channel ALL the time, so I got the real deal, 2203, and never looked back. I have a 1987, but had to have two foot-switchable PPVMVs installed before I could use it live (pant leg shaking loud before it would give up the goods). I've since acquired both the Studio Classic 20 head and combo which get in the same ballpark as the 2203 for those smaller venues. I've sent back many o' amp since the 2203; it's definitely my go-to amp.

Thanks for making me feel even better about stopping the chase for the convenience of a digital rig.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@solarburnDSL50

Cool bud, no offense taken. I've been playing for 25 years now, been in a lot of bands from rock, hard rock, metal, industrial all as lead guitarist or lead guitarist/vocalist. In my current band I am not the guitarist but the singer but I do miss the axe on stage though. I am also Head of IT for a large Finance company and specialise in corporate contracts, infrastructure, technical architecture and cyber security along with many other aspects so I am very technically minded.

No ill will to you too mate. I just don't want the thread derailed as its interesting to me. People on this thread have defended tubes, digital, Kemper and Fractal in a very pleasant manner.

Take care mate.

 

[andyg_prs]

Comment deleted....decided not to play into the hands of the attention seeker.

 

[solarburn]

@solarburnDSL50

Cool bud, no offense taken. I've been playing for 25 years now, been in a lot of bands from rock, hard rock, metal, industrial all as lead guitarist or lead guitarist/vocalist. In my current band I am not the guitarist but the singer but I do miss the axe on stage though. I am also Head of IT for a large Finance company and specialise in corporate contracts, infrastructure, technical architecture and cyber security along with many other aspects so I am very technically minded.

No ill will to you too mate. I just don't want the thread derailed as its interesting to me. People on this thread have defended tubes, digital, Kemper and Fractal in a very pleasant manner.

Take care mate.

Alrighty man. Just so you know? Pleasant ain't me. Intersesting? Hope you learn stuff. I do like you. Don't need anyone else to say.

Your nerdy side can be a plus. For me? No. Yet? Good for you. I mean that sincerely. Mean it more of you played sumptn?

If be the first to high 5 you? Otherwise quit trying to git me in bed?

 

[solarburn]

Comment deleted....decided not to play into the hands of the attention seeker.

Patty cakes to you!

 

[SuperFleeky]

Kinda reminds me of my great grand pa. Yea we could all look at our phone, conveniently see the weather and forecast, current news, etc all live in real time, up to date to the minute... nope he has to wait for the news paper the next morning because digital just isn't the same and he wants to read news not program a computer.

..... sorry just amuses me the resistance some people have to options and the refusal to see the benefits, because no other reason than narrow minded stubbornness.

I really would like to know why so many think you have to choose one over the other or that a digital offering must give you an exact or better experience than a tube amp to be relevant.

I think y'all should look at it as separate tools that can be used as needed to achieve tone goals and nothing more instead of treating it like a competition and that if you choose digital you must therefore sell off all your analog gear or vice versa....

This isn't sports. Its music. Its not a competition. The true purpose of an amplifier is to amplify your guitar so people can hear it anyways. The rest is just treatment to the signal, aka effects....

I agree with you 100% about getting the right tools for the job. That includes the experience of playing, and as I've attested before after having owned and used live and in the studio, both digital (Helix, Kemper, Axe FX) and tube rigs, for me there's nothing that has the same response as a good tube amp. It's a personal preference statement, not a good vs bad thing. Of course there are lots of advantages of digital rigs; however, one could also state the benefits of driving a Smart Car, but it's a personal choice as far as how it's economic pros weight against the enjoyment driving a Bugatti Chiron Super Sport. I don't see it as people resisting change... it's just musicians playing what makes them feel/sound their best regardless if it's a bit of a splurge.

 

[ShatteredVitreous]

@Dmann

I agree mate, hence why I have not slated or said "the Kemper is shit" only that it didn't sound to me as good as a proper amp. I have also defended the Kemper too as it is a great device.

My only aim with the post was to express my experience, definitely not be an advocate one way or another. How many producers would sneak the old Line6 Pod onto an album to reamp a guitar track? I wonder if we would ever know!

My job is technical so I see the benefits and the complexities it introduces.

Hope I don't come across as a digital pessimist, certainly not my intention but a good name for a band lol

Mike

 

[solarburn]

Spurdy.