After playing my JCM800, I sold my Kemper

[marshallmellowed]

When it comes to present day modeling gear, some call it "plastic", but the reality of the sound, well ...

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Everything has it's place.
There is a band called Toque here in Canada that consists of Todd Kearns formerly of Age of Electric, also played bass with Slash band, the guitarist for Shania Twain etc that play covers. They have some of their own material but are awesome at covering Canadian rock bands. They use Kempers. Have to cover lots of ground from Headpins (-yes, he can sing that!) to Harlequin to Bryan Adams. They are awesome live and sound fantastic.
Using Kempers. As long as it sounds good, I don't care what anyone uses.

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Plus Dog will have to munkybump me!

edited for wordiness... ...

 

[Frodebro]

These debates are always fascinating. What is so difficult about just admitting that you have an emotional bond with a certain type of gear that you personally do not have with a different one? That's what all of this really boils down to, and there is no need to try to justify it.

I have an emotional bond with my tube amps because, well, tradition. But I do admit that it is purely based on emotion.

 

[giblesp]

Interesting as I owned a JVM years ago, I have a Kemper (up for trade) and an AX8....and an Engl Ironball with a pedalboard of other drives, a 2 x 12 but also a Torpedo CaptorX

With my prog metal band the Kemper was great...I had just the right sound dialled in, could get it consistently at gigs / festivals. I have a really bad back so the lack of weight was good for me. I also enjoy the discipline of no guitar on stage until the monitors are turned on by FoH. The main thing here, particularly in a 2 guitar band where the sound guy doesn't know (or care) about your band/songs.....mic'ing a guitar cab is so hit and miss, digital makes it far easier to control your sound/volume. Even nudging a master volume on the amp, or volume pedal on the board with a tube amp, you can affect the tone....whereas with digital it's pretty much linear.

I love the tone of tubes but not the weight of heads/cabs or inconsistency of mic'ing. I've not had a chance to use it in anger yet, but the idea of the CaptorX is to be able to use my Engl Ironball (lunchbox style amp) without a cab = less weight, no mic'ing issues.

Under the influence of the other guitarist in a couple of my bands, who is pro level....and happens to use an AX8, and tends to use one patch, with a drive pedal on or off...and the volume knob and playing dynamics to get clean to thrash out of the same set up......I'm actually looking to trade the Kemper set up for one really nice amp....not sure what it might be yet! When it's plexi style, then you need a pedal for full metal....when it's metal, you need a switcher to put a plexi style pedal over the clean channel.

I copied this quote as on my wish list would be a lunchbox version of the JVM....it's a truly astonishing amp in terms of flexibility.....

I used to use a TSL122 for a reggae band and for me it had the best clean ever! However, it had that main board failure thing, had it repaired...it was still too noisy, even got it shipped to MK where the factory said it was working as intended...but it was way too noisy on clean to be used live....so it hit the dust.

I'd love to try a SLO30....and a Suhr PT15IR......in fact Engl were supposed to release an IR version of the Ironball...but I cancelled my order after waiting for almost a year...

Apologies for my many tangents

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks mate, very interesting.

Was reading up on how Phil Collen switched to an AxFx. Obviously he doesn't need to carry his amps, but it seems the ease of the setup and getting the balance of the sound on stage is why the top rockers use digital. Billy Corgan now uses modules, Mark Knopfler a Kemper. Probably a lot of time saved for the sound guy and crew. I can fully understand the appeal.

Your reasons are equally valid also. No mike, less weight etc.

I need the Marshall roar and punch live though, but that's just me. I may well try just my Kemper live at some point. Great to have the option of both.

The problem with a lunch box version of the JVM, is that the lower transistors and wattage would mean less punch. That's why I chose the JVM 50W over a lunchbox amp. It's apparent even at lower volumes to me. For some, EQ and/or a TS9 may help but for me I needed a punch a smaller amp can't deliver.

 

[giblesp]

@patrice

7 Marshalls... Nice, bet the resale value is better too. Lol

@yafal

I'm interested in the DSL, and it's top of my list. I need to start a new thread as I believe a few had issues. Loads about for sale too.

Are you in the UK? I have a DSL 401 combo for sale, needs the reverb repaired and probably some tubes replaced. Red channel goes off after about 10 mins. Green channel is fine. Needs a trip to the amp doctor. Am selling for around £80....

 

[giblesp]

@Neale Dunham

I can't speak for Fractal as I have never used there device but I have to completely disagree regarding Kemper.......and actually agree but for a different reason.

Kemper do not charge for there updates and they release a lot. The technology has not reached its limit so, unlike most if not all other manufacturers, they have not released a Kemper 2.0 and cashed in. This is something that should be applauded not condemned. It's always evolving and that's where I disagree with your statement.

Now here is what started with me disliking the Kemper. After about 2 or 3 years of ownership the sales appeared to dramatically increase. I say appeared as this would be my assumption from the amount of new people that joined the forum.

Now old timers or early adopters treated the Kemper as an amp head first and foremost. This is what attracted me rather than Fractal as the Kemper is very plug and play, very simplistic to use and the front end was designed to not need a software editor.

The Kemper is dependent on how the amps are profiled. Profiling amps isn't that simple, and is very subjective. There could be a dozen profiles of the same amp by different people, they'd all sound different. IMO getting the amp and profiler to react to one another just right, takes a little time and practice. I haven;t got the time, so I buy profiles, combining the profiles of amps of my choice, with the profiles of cabs of my choice. Then I do a few tweaks I've learned along the way, adjusted accordingly to the guitar I'm using.

Basically, there's a technique to profiling. And then there's a technique obviously, to how that profile is used. That makes for a thousand options at least. It will be years before the Kemper reaches its limit. Long before then, its probably safe to assume they'll be an update or a new machine.

A dedicated modular however, has more limits and therefore less longevity.
The Kemper may definitely be plug and play for some, but for others its tweak land. Just like a real amp/mike setup.

I'd therefore argue that if you are going to spend that kind of money on a bit of digital recording gear, consider the Kemper. But of course, of you prefer the sound of something else go for that.

And if I try a load box next week and prefer it, there will be a Kemper for sale.

 

[PauleyB]

I kinda did the same thing except I had my amp already when I bought the Fractal Audio FM3. I would play the FM3 through my Fryette power station and into my 2 x 12 cab. Sounded pretty good. I played that exclusively for a couple of months. I found, though, that I was mostly using the 50W plexi model. My amp is a 50W Plexi style amp (Suhr SL67). Then, one day I decided to play through my amp again and my goodness the feel of a real tube amp leaves nothing to be desired. Sold the FM3...

 

[scozz]

Amen man. It's what I've ALWAYS disliked about modeling amps- menu diving and tweaking to the point you lose contact with what's real.

Amen Brother!

 

[marshallmellowed]

Some of the posts in this thread remind me of an 80's band, "Simple Minds".

 

[zeusta]

All

Well after 4 years of loving the Kemper and simultaneously being frustrated with the quality of the profiles on offer I finally sold it. I know we have some Kemper lovers on this board and I am certainly not mocking the product, its a fantastic digital device, but there were in the end too many things that annoyed me about it.

My frustrations:

Variation in profilers was drastic so if you wanted continuity between recorded tracks you needed to stay within a very small offerings from various profilers who all profiled the same (mixing Deadlight with Choptones was fine, MBritt with Top Jimi was fine but mix any of them up and its night and day in terms of application)

Having to surgically eq every profile to remove the over hyped bass, fizz or with some profiles a flat and apparent lack of body, to only thin the sound out too much was frustrating.

Stacking profiles just turned the results to mush.

Rig Manager since the introduction of an editor became so unstable from one minute to the next you could not use it. Performance mode, which is what I used to organise my patches by song, just did not work since version 6.

i took stock and decided to really question if I liked it enough to slow down my workflow. After realising I only used the JCM800 and AFD100 profiles I decided to try the real thing.

Off I went and purchased a JCM800 2203x (£700), Two Notes Reload (£500), a Slash wah (£150) and a GTOD (£80) plus a Twin City (£80) so I could split my signal to the JCM800 and my SJ.

A few things I noticed which was immediately apparent:

The lack of options had a huge impact on workload. No longer was I scrolling through thousands of profiles to find what would fit.

What sounded good out of the speaker sounded good in the mix. The overhyped profiles sounded amazing in isolation, to much fighting when recorded.

No longer, beyond a simple low pass, did I need to surgically eq the guitars.

Stacking guitars just made the sound huge and using the eq to make space for certain frequencies was quick and easy.

Sound experimentation was zero. Want a different delay? well buy it and really think about if you want to spend the cash rather than scrolling for hours and never getting anything done because it is all freely avaliable.

Its not all amazing.

I now have a clutter of cables, the fizzy sound from the reload is annoying at times but its a much better work flow and.......well thats it. Tucked the cables under the rug, put my headphones on when writing and I am in tone heaven.

I can honestly say at this point in time, and don't take my word for it, I am done with the digital world. With only the Axe left for me to try I really don't see the attraction in having so much choice whilst having very little time.

Now I just need a modern voiced Marshall to compliment my JCM800 and SJ that is not a JVM.

Boring story I know but I thought I would be nervous or reluctant on the day to sell, definitely not the case.

You know whats better than convenience, the sound of a tube amp....don't compromise

Mike

I agree with you keep it simple and fun. I’ve had my JCM800 for about 10 years now and it was used back then when I bought it. Love that trademark sound. I don’t know much about the Kemper model just what I’ve seen on the internet, I assume it must sound pretty good as well

 

[andyg_prs]

Thanks mate, very interesting.

Was reading up on how Phil Collen switched to an AxFx. Obviously he doesn't need to carry his amps, but it seems the ease of the setup and getting the balance of the sound on stage is why the top rockers use digital. Billy Corgan now uses modules, Mark Knopfler a Kemper. Probably a lot of time saved for the sound guy and crew. I can fully understand the appeal.

Your reasons are equally valid also. No mike, less weight etc.

I need the Marshall roar and punch live though, but that's just me. I may well try just my Kemper live at some point. Great to have the option of both.

The problem with a lunch box version of the JVM, is that the lower transistors and wattage would mean less punch. That's why I chose the JVM 50W over a lunchbox amp. It's apparent even at lower volumes to me. For some, EQ and/or a TS9 may help but for me I needed a punch a smaller amp can't deliver.

Hi,

Another interesting thing for me is rehearsals. Sometimes I long for that fullness / richness of sound that I feel I get with a tube amp....yet the drummer finds it harder to hear me that way, and when I listen back to recordings, I tend to get buried in the mix.....when I use the Kemper.....I'm not always satifisfied with the tone.....but when I listen back to recordings, I'm clear and present in the mix. I think the "feel" thing you get with an amp and speakers in the room is perhaps more personal, and lost to the audience / recordings.

Live, I'm always relying on the wedge monitors to hear myself anyhow so the "in the room" factor disappears.

I can count on one hand where I can't hear myself clearly on the recording of a live gig with the Kemper.....yet 80-90% of gigs with the Engl I was lost in the mix.

I know there are lots of variables including the discipline of the other guitarist with their volume....

There are things I love and hate about the Kemper. I'm currently (well was, pre lockdown) using my AX8 more than the Kemper as it had this on off issue where it would sound like there was a cocked wah in the chain....a ghost in the machine if you will. But its best feature for me is the morph. Get your tone, pop your expression pedal toe down and mess with the tone....eq, volume, gain, delay, whatever.....now move between the two at will.

As I say, I'd love to use real amps all the time....and the CaptorX, and/or the new trend for IR equipped amps, might lend itself to that.

Interestingly (in my case at least) I actually find a Kemper or AX8 simpler than an amp....if like me, you use different pedals for different flavours of gain.....in a live environment, it's easier to tweak / control (well the Kemper is in terms of actual controls, and for both I will set up volume matched, graded clean to high gain patches so I can change on the fly)

If on my Engl I have a tone and volume that works for me for the gain channel, and the clean channel with a plexitone pedal in front of it.....when I change the master volume.....the volume of the clean/plexitone is wrong....probably due to the way the pedal pushes the front of the amp.

Finally, I had a Legacy 3 years ago....it with essentially a lunchbox (maybe a large one) form amp and came with 4 x EL34s, 100 watts.....which does make me wonder why most lunchbox amps only use EL84s?

Cheers,
Andy

PS - I need to check out what a 6505+ combo converted into a head weighs.....6L6s and massive thump apparently!

 

[Dogs of Doom]

Hi,

Another interesting thing for me is rehearsals. Sometimes I long for that fullness / richness of sound that I feel I get with a tube amp....yet the drummer finds it harder to hear me that way, and when I listen back to recordings, I tend to get buried in the mix.....when I use the Kemper.....I'm not always satifisfied with the tone.....but when I listen back to recordings, I'm clear and present in the mix. I think the "feel" thing you get with an amp and speakers in the room is perhaps more personal, and lost to the audience / recordings.

Live, I'm always relying on the wedge monitors to hear myself anyhow so the "in the room" factor disappears.

I can count on one hand where I can't hear myself clearly on the recording of a live gig with the Kemper.....yet 80-90% of gigs with the Engl I was lost in the mix.

I know there are lots of variables including the discipline of the other guitarist with their volume....

There are things I love and hate about the Kemper. I'm currently (well was, pre lockdown) using my AX8 more than the Kemper as it had this on off issue where it would sound like there was a cocked wah in the chain....a ghost in the machine if you will. But its best feature for me is the morph. Get your tone, pop your expression pedal toe down and mess with the tone....eq, volume, gain, delay, whatever.....now move between the two at will.

As I say, I'd love to use real amps all the time....and the CaptorX, and/or the new trend for IR equipped amps, might lend itself to that.

Interestingly (in my case at least) I actually find a Kemper or AX8 simpler than an amp....if like me, you use different pedals for different flavours of gain.....in a live environment, it's easier to tweak / control (well the Kemper is in terms of actual controls, and for both I will set up volume matched, graded clean to high gain patches so I can change on the fly)

If on my Engl I have a tone and volume that works for me for the gain channel, and the clean channel with a plexitone pedal in front of it.....when I change the master volume.....the volume of the clean/plexitone is wrong....probably due to the way the pedal pushes the front of the amp.

Finally, I had a Legacy 3 years ago....it with essentially a lunchbox (maybe a large one) form amp and came with 4 x EL34s, 100 watts.....which does make me wonder why most lunchbox amps only use EL84s?

Cheers,
Andy

PS - I need to check out what a 6505+ combo converted into a head weighs.....6L6s and massive thump apparently!

do you have the powered Kemper?

Try running the Kemper into the ENGL. Use the ENGL as your in room monitor & feed the recording board w/ the direct feed - depending on how you're recording.

Just run the monitor out w/o any speaker simulation into the effects return of the ENGL.

 

[andyg_prs]

Hi, I've had both the powered Kemper and (currently) the unpowered. I've used the Kemper as just a preamp before...lots of options. I'm keener on the tube amp > IR > PA currently...but plenty of options. There aren't any real issues, other than my back

 

[marshallmellowed]

Although it's not "Kemper" related, if we're talking "simple", one of the main reasons I went with an Axe Fx for gigging was simplicity. You have a 2 space rack bag, one foot controller, a small powered monitor (optional) and your guitar(s). Plug the foot controller into the Axe Fx, the Axe Fx output into the mixer and personal monitor (I use a small 10" powered monitor), and you're done. Yes, it takes some time configuring the Axe Fx for the sounds you need, but it's a one time thing, and all done at home. There's no need to go down a rabbit hole, unless one allows themselves to do that. As for the "feel" some say is missing with modelers, that's most likely the result of a poor modeler or user error. To use a modeler like a tube amp (get the "amp in the room feel"), you need to turn off the cab modeling (Very Important), and use it like a pre-amp, run the modeler into a clean SS (or tube) power amp (stereo preferred), and then to a guitar cab(s). You now have what would be comparable to, but better than, an 80's rackmount guitar rig (preamp > power amp > guitar cab(s), which sounds huge (especially in stereo). That said, nothing wrong with using an amp and pedals, if that's what one prefers, but those that believe it's the only way to get that "inspiring" tube amp tone and feel are mistaken. Just want my fellow M'fers to have first hand, and "accurate" info from someone that has used both (amps & modelers).

 

[aberry9475]

There's just no denying the convenience of Kempers or Axe Fx's.

But, then there's just no denying how the thing they're trying to copy sounds and feels.

Tough life. At least we have the choices now that guitarists didn't have in the 40-60 years ago.

To each their own. Great synopsis of your experience though.

 

[Jethro Rocker]

Hi,

PS - I need to check out what a 6505+ combo converted into a head weighs.....6L6s and massive thump apparently!

Don't know what it woild weigh but yes the 6505 + combo does thump! It's why I got one. If you like Marshall tones you need to get the presence essentially near 10 but they really do cook!

 

[Spooky88]

A guitar straight into a tube amp will make you a better player. PERIOD! I ditched the digital crap in the 90's, and the modeling junk hasn't improved. lifeless with no soul.

 

[Michael Roe]

I still believe that most people don't exactly know what the Kemper does.
It is not a modeler. A modeler is a digital representation of a real amp.
It is a recorder if you will, a recording of a real amp stored as a preset. It is a snap shot of your rig. Just like in a recording situation or a live sound situation where the audience hears you via another audio system other than your speaker cab.
Does it sound just like your amp blasting you from a few feet away? NO! and neither does your amp at that same setting while being mic'd up listened to back on headphones, studio monitors or a PA.
The Kemper is a tool and it would never replace the tube amp IMHO. If I'm on stage, I want a Marshall tube amp setting on top of a 4x12, plain and simple. I don't care what the audience hears as much as I want to be inspired by what I hear. A real tube amp does that for me!
Now, when it comes to recording, it's a different story. If I have profiled my amp exactly how I want it to sound in the recording, well, the Kemper makes for a very nice tool.
Will the Kemper be 100% accurate? No, but very close.
The Kemper requires the user to be a recording engineer. If you don't know how or suck at it.....don't buy a Kemper. Yes, there are profiles you can buy but are those sounds exactly what you want? For me, No! I want to do that my self.

If any of you are considering a Kemper, take it from a fairly experienced user: Do not use a Loadbox. You can use a DI if you want to capture just the amp. It sounds best to profile the amp and cab together and use mics. Also, if your sound uses pedals in front of your amp: Do not profile with those pedals. After profiling, place those pedals in front of the Kemper to get that same sound.

 

[GregM]

Preface, I have no experience with the kemplar.
However my first real amp I loved was my mustang 4. 150 watts of 100 channels, pedal effects able to be kicked on and off, Solid state so good at low volumes etc...
7 years in I go back to guitar after 3 years off ( too many commitments not enough time)
I am happily playing away, think I only use like 4 of these 100 channels, let's find some more, download another 300 +, OK cool, 13 alone named acdc blabla.
Go to fender fuse, shit, my password isn't my usual one, OK send me password
" this site is no longer supported by fender"
It's only fucking 7 years old or less at that stage, and their new program doesn't support the mustang, please buy the reverb deluxe or whatever the fuck it is.
So my attitude is, fuck digital, buy analogue and u have something that lasts forever ( that requires maintenance, but keeps working) orgo digital and welcome to apple's world, upgrade or get fucked ( and please do it all over again)