Amp modelers vs real deal

[Crikey]

Do you know how many kemper and Axe FX units go on tour? It’s rather shortsighted to say pros don’t take them very seriously.
Metallica
Journey
Def Leppard
Lonestar


There’s a ton more.

It's gotta be the real thing for me.

The notion of showing up at a gig thinking I'm going to simply plug a modeler into god knows what-all and trust it to sound exactly the way I set all 4,600 parameters at home without a few simple tweaks to the bass, middle & treble, has eluded me since 2003.

Exactly. I have a pod500x and its good for some things but move up on preset and levels are all over the place and it does not sound like it does at home. I m selling mine rather have pedals for control on stage

 

[saxon68]

Exactly. I have a pod500x and its good for some things but move up on preset and levels are all over the place and it does not sound like it does at home. I m selling mine rather have pedals for control on stage

To be fair you can’t compare a POD500x to modern top tier units.

 

[Crikey]

To be fair you can’t compare a POD500x to modern top tier units.

Upper tier level unit will probably sound better than a POD500 but I’d rather take the amp.

 

[ampmadscientist]

Mark Knopfler uses a Kemper - no amps on stage.

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Amps:
– Selmer Thunderbird
Used in the early days, pre Dire Straits.

– Fender Vibrolux
A brown-tolex Vibrolux made in the mid 60s, used since the first album for clean tone. It can be heard way back on Dire Straits debut album (most notably on “Sultans of Swing”), and on Mark’s latest solo Privateering.

– Fender Twin Reverb
Mainly seen on live gigs following the release of the band’s first album, although the amp was used during the studio sessions as well.

– Roland JC-120 Jazz Chorus
Used only on the first album.

– Music Man HD130
Present during Making Movies era, both in studio and on stage.

– Mesa Boogie Mark II
Used for the Love Over Gold album, and most of the stuff on Brother in Arms.

– Marshall JTM45
Used on “Brothers in Arms” and “Money For Nothing”.

– Jim Kelley FACS heads
Used for the entirety of the Brothers in Arms tour, by both Mark and Jack Sonni. According to John Suhr who at the time worked at Rudy’s Music Stop in New York, and who also introduced Mark to Jim Kelley amps, the amp was also used on the intro for “Money for Nothing” (Thanks to Jim Kelley for providing the info).

– Soldano SLO 100
Basically Mark’s main go-to amp since the mid 90s.

– Crate VC5212
Used for a brief period of time live during the Golden Heart tour.

– Komet 60
Used in the mid ’00s.

– Fender Bassman ’59
Used in the recent days,next to his old Vibrolux and Soldano.

– Reinhardt
Mark used Talyn and Storm 33 models on the 2012 album Privateering, although they were used some time prior to the album as well.

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Effects:
Mark is one of those guitarists who keep most of their effects in the rack during a live setting, meaning — he mostly lets his guitar tech take care of them. In the studio, most of the effects are added in the process of mixing and editing the tapes.
That aside, here’s couple of pedals which had significant impact on building Mark’s signature sound over the years:

– Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer
Mark allegedly used this compressor on the first album for “Sultans of Swing”, although the compression might’ve been added after in the process of mixing. If you’re looking for a similar sound through a pedal, Henretta Orange Whip Compressor would be a good start.

– Morley Volume Pedal
He used this volume pedal in the early days, but now he’s using the Ernie Ball Volume Pedal. It is usually the only pedal he’d actually have with him on stage. Example can be heard all over “Brothers in Arms” fillers when played live.

– MXR Carbon Copy Analog Delay
Mark uses a bit of delay in his usual setting. In the early days he went with the MXR Analog Delay, but nowadays he seems to be using TC Electronic 2290 rack delay.

– Dunlop Cry Baby
Mark used it on Money for Nothing, having it in a fixed position.

– Crowther Audio Hotcake
Very basic old-school fuzz seen on some of the more recent tours (post 2000).

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Strings:
– D’Addario EXL 120 9-42 – used on most of his electric guitars.

– Dean Markley Custom Light 12-53 – used on his acoustics.

– D’Addario EJ15/3D 10-47 – used on the National.

Contributors: C64x8, classichomes, gosselin.bruno, onlyforworldoft, J.Kelley

 

[Trident]

@saxon68 ... I might have to find one to try... But if they are so good as many say...and I have Never heard a bad note towards Kempers...Why would more ppl go after a Kemper than to spend tons on an array of tube heads?
I would say get a Kemper n be done with it... Guess I just don’t really understand...
I love my plexi, n dsl’s...but if a Kemper is so awesome, I better get busy finding a Kemper to try...

 

[ricksdisconnected]

I prefer real amps but Positive Grid Jam up Pro for iPhone through a decent pair of studio grade headphones is great for practice or when I have to play silently.

Positive Grid is doing some very cool shit right now.

 

[Matthews Guitars]

I have lots of real tube amps and I have a couple small solid state Marshalls and I have a Fractal Axe-FX II.

To get a lot of great and different tones in a single box, a Fractal is unbeatable. It's SO close in performance to the amps that are modelled within it,
that if you take the time to tweak the settings to get the most out of them, you'll be hard pressed to tell that you're not playing the "real" amp, in fact,
in a blind test, you might not guess right. And if a digital amp breaks, just pull another one out of the box, upload your customized presets into it from
your USB drive, and you're right back where you were. It isn't like finding the magic Marshall where everything comes together and it just sounds better
than any other Marshall you ever tried. Any given Axe-FX II is completely interchangeable with any other Axe-FX II. With the same firmware, models,
and settings they're going to all and always sound the same. And that's good for a gigging musician.

But if there's nobody around to complain, I'd rather plug into a Jose' modded Marshall than the Fractal model of a Jose' modded Marshall. It's just the reality of the thing.

 

[saxon68]

I have lots of real tube amps and I have a couple small solid state Marshalls and I have a Fractal Axe-FX II.

To get a lot of great and different tones in a single box, a Fractal is unbeatable. It's SO close in performance to the amps that are modelled within it,
that if you take the time to tweak the settings to get the most out of them, you'll be hard pressed to tell that you're not playing the "real" amp, in fact,
in a blind test, you might not guess right. And if a digital amp breaks, just pull another one out of the box, upload your customized presets into it from
your USB drive, and you're right back where you were. It isn't like finding the magic Marshall where everything comes together and it just sounds better
than any other Marshall you ever tried. Any given Axe-FX II is completely interchangeable with any other Axe-FX II. With the same firmware, models,
and settings they're going to all and always sound the same. And that's good for a gigging musician.

But if there's nobody around to complain, I'd rather plug into a Jose' modded Marshall than the Fractal model of a Jose' modded Marshall. It's just the reality of the thing.

You can’t go wrong with any of the top tier options, and agreed, I’d love to plug into a Jose Marshall. BUT... lug it out to a gig, or someone else’s garage/basement for rehearsal? Nah bro.

 

[Vinsanitizer]

To be fair you can’t compare a POD500x to modern top tier units.

I can't see how how some of the same drawbacks wouldn't still apply (in my experience, not everyone's):

Endless possibilities
Endless patches
Endless menu scrolling
Endless parameter tweaking
Endless EQ'ing
By 4 am you've got your first row of patches set. In the morning they sound completely different because you spent all night burning your ears out.

Let's say you finally get the sounds you like through that nice pair of headphones, high quality monitor speakers, etc. You show up with your rig at the gig and mix it in with the rest of the band and it sounds completely different than it did at home because you didn't have the actual band context to mix your tones with. Back to the drawing board, where you will continue to fail unless your band is willing to play for the next 3 days while you fit all your patches into context... a context, which by the way, is ever-changing).

I want to plug into any guitar amp I choose to use, turn around behind me (as opposed to bending down over a floor board - and God help me if I ever have to use a *choke* laptop), teak my tone in mere seconds at any point during a rehearsal or performance, and then just play. After that, if I need to tweak a pedal here and there, it should take me seconds to do. Otherwise I'd dump that amp or pedal and get gear I don't have to tweak all day. Adding IEM's to this only adds to the complexity (for me) rather than simplifying it.

Again, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, I'm offering my experience with these units. It's extremely difficult and boring for me to be creating numerous "awesome" patches and scrolling back and forth through menus and parameters... I get to the point where I can't even tell what I'm hearing anymore, such as the difference between this cab or that mic (model, angle, distance), room damping, etc., etc., etc. I don't want to have to tell my amplification how to sound, I want it to tell me how it sounds, and then I can just make a few quick adjustments and get onto the point of it all: jamming in blissful delight.

One last thing: tube amp heads that you can run direct-out without even having a speaker plugged in. Example: Peavey Mini Heads (I own a new Classic MH20), and others cropping up like it. These amps have a load of great features, including output options with the ability to be used silently without a speaker even connected. But I can't see playing these things at home through my speakers where they sound fabulous, and then conveniently taking that head to a silent stage, running a line out to the house and listening to it through in ear monitors. I could never gig like that again - tube amp, modeling or otherwise.
.

 

[EL 34]

All of that convenience comes at the cost of tone, pick attack and dynamics I am sure. I consistently hear these modelers are close but not quite there.

If I have to lug a 100 lb cab anyway, it's no bother to lug a tube head as well.

 

[Dmann]

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Amps:
– Selmer Thunderbird
Used in the early days, pre Dire Straits.

– Fender Vibrolux
A brown-tolex Vibrolux made in the mid 60s, used since the first album for clean tone. It can be heard way back on Dire Straits debut album (most notably on “Sultans of Swing”), and on Mark’s latest solo Privateering.

– Fender Twin Reverb
Mainly seen on live gigs following the release of the band’s first album, although the amp was used during the studio sessions as well.

– Roland JC-120 Jazz Chorus
Used only on the first album.

– Music Man HD130
Present during Making Movies era, both in studio and on stage.

– Mesa Boogie Mark II
Used for the Love Over Gold album, and most of the stuff on Brother in Arms.

– Marshall JTM45
Used on “Brothers in Arms” and “Money For Nothing”.

– Jim Kelley FACS heads
Used for the entirety of the Brothers in Arms tour, by both Mark and Jack Sonni. According to John Suhr who at the time worked at Rudy’s Music Stop in New York, and who also introduced Mark to Jim Kelley amps, the amp was also used on the intro for “Money for Nothing” (Thanks to Jim Kelley for providing the info).

– Soldano SLO 100
Basically Mark’s main go-to amp since the mid 90s.

– Crate VC5212
Used for a brief period of time live during the Golden Heart tour.

– Komet 60
Used in the mid ’00s.

– Fender Bassman ’59
Used in the recent days,next to his old Vibrolux and Soldano.

– Reinhardt
Mark used Talyn and Storm 33 models on the 2012 album Privateering, although they were used some time prior to the album as well.

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Effects:
Mark is one of those guitarists who keep most of their effects in the rack during a live setting, meaning — he mostly lets his guitar tech take care of them. In the studio, most of the effects are added in the process of mixing and editing the tapes.
That aside, here’s couple of pedals which had significant impact on building Mark’s signature sound over the years:

– Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer
Mark allegedly used this compressor on the first album for “Sultans of Swing”, although the compression might’ve been added after in the process of mixing. If you’re looking for a similar sound through a pedal, Henretta Orange Whip Compressor would be a good start.

– Morley Volume Pedal
He used this volume pedal in the early days, but now he’s using the Ernie Ball Volume Pedal. It is usually the only pedal he’d actually have with him on stage. Example can be heard all over “Brothers in Arms” fillers when played live.

– MXR Carbon Copy Analog Delay
Mark uses a bit of delay in his usual setting. In the early days he went with the MXR Analog Delay, but nowadays he seems to be using TC Electronic 2290 rack delay.

– Dunlop Cry Baby
Mark used it on Money for Nothing, having it in a fixed position.

– Crowther Audio Hotcake
Very basic old-school fuzz seen on some of the more recent tours (post 2000).

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Strings:
– D’Addario EXL 120 9-42 – used on most of his electric guitars.

– Dean Markley Custom Light 12-53 – used on his acoustics.

– D’Addario EJ15/3D 10-47 – used on the National.

Contributors: C64x8, classichomes, gosselin.bruno, onlyforworldoft, J.Kelley

https://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/i...s-official-mark-knopfler-uses-kemper-on-tour/
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/mark-knopfler-using-kemper-profiling-amps-for-his-onstage-sound

and yes even on TGP

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...nopfler-using-kemper-on-current-tour.2046587/

 

[saxon68]

I can't see how how some of the same drawbacks wouldn't still apply (in my experience, not everyone's):

Endless possibilities
Endless patches
Endless menu scrolling
Endless parameter tweaking
Endless EQ'ing
By 4 am you've got your first row of patches set. In the morning they sound completely different because you spent all night burning your ears out.

Let's say you finally get the sounds you like through that nice pair of headphones, high quality monitor speakers, etc. You show up with your rig at the gig and mix it in with the rest of the band and it sounds completely different than it did at home because you didn't have the actual band context to mix your tones with. Back to the drawing board, where you will continue to fail unless your band is willing to play for the next 3 days while you fit all your patches into context... a context, which by the way, is ever-changing).

I want to plug into any guitar amp I choose to use, turn around behind me (as opposed to bending down over a floor board - and God help me if I ever have to use a *choke* laptop), teak my tone in mere seconds at any point during a rehearsal or performance, and then just play. After that, if I need to tweak a pedal here and there, it should take me seconds to do. Otherwise I'd dump that amp or pedal and get gear I don't have to tweak all day. Adding IEM's to this only adds to the complexity (for me) rather than simplifying it.

Again, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, I'm offering my experience with these units. It's extremely difficult and boring for me to be creating numerous "awesome" patches and scrolling back and forth through menus and parameters... I get to the point where I can't even tell what I'm hearing anymore, such as the difference between this cab or that mic (model, angle, distance), room damping, etc., etc., etc. I don't want to have to tell my amplification how to sound, I want it to tell me how it sounds, and then I can just make a few quick adjustments and get onto the point of it all: jamming in blissful delight.

One last thing: tube amp heads that you can run direct-out without even having a speaker plugged in. Example: Peavey Mini Heads (I own a new Classic MH20), and others cropping up like it. These amps have a load of great features, including output options with the ability to be used silently without a speaker even connected. But I can't see playing these things at home through my speakers where they sound fabulous, and then conveniently taking that head to a silent stage, running a line out to the house and listening to it through in ear monitors. I could never gig like that again - tube amp, modeling or otherwise.
.

What you’ve described is exactly why I went from Helix to Kemper. I’ve got profiles that are already made from tweaked amps, ready to go. I don’t crank knobs, except to add an effect here or there if I want to.
I’ve still got a Marshall amp though!

 

[Vinsanitizer]

What you’ve described is exactly why I went from Helix to Kemper. I’ve got profiles that are already made from tweaked amps, ready to go. I don’t crank knobs, except to add an effect here or there if I want to.
I’ve still got a Marshall amp though!

The Kemper costs more than twice the Helix, right? Actually, what are the prices of these things now - Kemper, AxeFX, Helix, etc. And is Line 6 mostly a "budget" modeler now?

 

[Dogs of Doom]

@saxon68 ... I might have to find one to try... But if they are so good as many say...and I have Never heard a bad note towards Kempers...Why would more ppl go after a Kemper than to spend tons on an array of tube heads?
I would say get a Kemper n be done with it... Guess I just don’t really understand...
I love my plexi, n dsl’s...but if a Kemper is so awesome, I better get busy finding a Kemper to try...

have you ever toured overseas?

Fly w/ your stacks, effects, etc.?

W/ a Kemper, you can rent a backline, tell them to have a Kemper, have all your performance sounds on a thumbdrive & you have perfect sound, anywhere in the world all set up & ready to go & every soundguy will be able to dial you in w/o any problems...

The problem though, w/ a Kemper you can not just "try" it & get a feel for it. It's something that you need to spend time & learn.

I've had mine for a couple years & haven't hardly scratched the surface of what it can do.

Although, at my fingertips, & the touch of a button, I can play almost any/every Marshall amp, cab, speaker that I want, any Friedman, Mesa, Fender, Ampeg, Randall, HiWatt, Laney, Peavey, Wizard, Ceriatone, etc.

If I wanted to, I could switch between 128 different amp's in a single song.

There's even Dumble profiles...

If you have a special amp, that you think is unique, you can profile it & take it wherever you go, w/o worrying about damage or theft.

There's a lot to it.

 

[DragonCrestPC]

Real amps for me, tried kemper and axefx and preferred the real deal myself.

 

[saxon68]

The Kemper costs more than twice the Helix, right? Actually, what are the prices of these things now - Kemper, AxeFX, Helix, etc. And is Line 6 mostly a "budget" modeler now?

Some prices went up due to tariffs, Helix floor is 1699 now, used to be 1500 when I bought mine.
Kemper made a unit (Kemper Stage) that combines the brains and the floor controller for 1700, I got mine from Sweetwater for 35 a month, zero interest. The first batch had some hardware issues, mines been rock solid but I was backordered for a few weeks, probably worked out in my favor.


I certainly wouldn’t call the Helix a budget modeler, it’s definitely feature packed and they keep adding to it without extra charge.
The interface is way beyond the Kemper, but I don’t tweak so I don’t care really, I’ve got a row of buttons that can turn FX on and off and switch to different amps, no muss no fuss for me. With Helix I wasn’t tweaking onstage, but off I was always in search of a better sound/feel.

 

[Crikey]

I can't see how how some of the same drawbacks wouldn't still apply (in my experience, not everyone's):

Endless possibilities
Endless patches
Endless menu scrolling
Endless parameter tweaking
Endless EQ'ing
By 4 am you've got your first row of patches set. In the morning they sound completely different because you spent all night burning your ears out.

Let's say you finally get the sounds you like through that nice pair of headphones, high quality monitor speakers, etc. You show up with your rig at the gig and mix it in with the rest of the band and it sounds completely different than it did at home because you didn't have the actual band context to mix your tones with. Back to the drawing board, where you will continue to fail unless your band is willing to play for the next 3 days while you fit all your patches into context... a context, which by the way, is ever-changing).

I want to plug into any guitar amp I choose to use, turn around behind me (as opposed to bending down over a floor board - and God help me if I ever have to use a *choke* laptop), teak my tone in mere seconds at any point during a rehearsal or performance, and then just play. After that, if I need to tweak a pedal here and there, it should take me seconds to do. Otherwise I'd dump that amp or pedal and get gear I don't have to tweak all day. Adding IEM's to this only adds to the complexity (for me) rather than simplifying it.

Again, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, I'm offering my experience with these units. It's extremely difficult and boring for me to be creating numerous "awesome" patches and scrolling back and forth through menus and parameters... I get to the point where I can't even tell what I'm hearing anymore, such as the difference between this cab or that mic (model, angle, distance), room damping, etc., etc., etc. I don't want to have to tell my amplification how to sound, I want it to tell me how it sounds, and then I can just make a few quick adjustments and get onto the point of it all: jamming in blissful delight.

One last thing: tube amp heads that you can run direct-out without even having a speaker plugged in. Example: Peavey Mini Heads (I own a new Classic MH20), and others cropping up like it. These amps have a load of great features, including output options with the ability to be used silently without a speaker even connected. But I can't see playing these things at home through my speakers where they sound fabulous, and then conveniently taking that head to a silent stage, running a line out to the house and listening to it through in ear monitors. I could never gig like that again - tube amp, modeling or otherwise.
.

100%. same thing. You can't tweak sounds on most signal processors on stage, the font is way too small, often times you can't read it, as you mentioned you set up sounds with headphones or through the amp and it sounds completely different the next day. I will take the analog way. anyway you look at it, the modeler is imitating an amplifier. I prefer the real thing.

 

[KraftyBob]

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Amps:
– Selmer Thunderbird
Used in the early days, pre Dire Straits.

– Fender Vibrolux
A brown-tolex Vibrolux made in the mid 60s, used since the first album for clean tone. It can be heard way back on Dire Straits debut album (most notably on “Sultans of Swing”), and on Mark’s latest solo Privateering.

– Fender Twin Reverb
Mainly seen on live gigs following the release of the band’s first album, although the amp was used during the studio sessions as well.

– Roland JC-120 Jazz Chorus
Used only on the first album.

– Music Man HD130
Present during Making Movies era, both in studio and on stage.

– Mesa Boogie Mark II
Used for the Love Over Gold album, and most of the stuff on Brother in Arms.

– Marshall JTM45
Used on “Brothers in Arms” and “Money For Nothing”.

– Jim Kelley FACS heads
Used for the entirety of the Brothers in Arms tour, by both Mark and Jack Sonni. According to John Suhr who at the time worked at Rudy’s Music Stop in New York, and who also introduced Mark to Jim Kelley amps, the amp was also used on the intro for “Money for Nothing” (Thanks to Jim Kelley for providing the info).

– Soldano SLO 100
Basically Mark’s main go-to amp since the mid 90s.

– Crate VC5212
Used for a brief period of time live during the Golden Heart tour.

– Komet 60
Used in the mid ’00s.

– Fender Bassman ’59
Used in the recent days,next to his old Vibrolux and Soldano.

– Reinhardt
Mark used Talyn and Storm 33 models on the 2012 album Privateering, although they were used some time prior to the album as well.

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Effects:
Mark is one of those guitarists who keep most of their effects in the rack during a live setting, meaning — he mostly lets his guitar tech take care of them. In the studio, most of the effects are added in the process of mixing and editing the tapes.
That aside, here’s couple of pedals which had significant impact on building Mark’s signature sound over the years:

– Dan Armstrong Orange Squeezer
Mark allegedly used this compressor on the first album for “Sultans of Swing”, although the compression might’ve been added after in the process of mixing. If you’re looking for a similar sound through a pedal, Henretta Orange Whip Compressor would be a good start.

– Morley Volume Pedal
He used this volume pedal in the early days, but now he’s using the Ernie Ball Volume Pedal. It is usually the only pedal he’d actually have with him on stage. Example can be heard all over “Brothers in Arms” fillers when played live.

– MXR Carbon Copy Analog Delay
Mark uses a bit of delay in his usual setting. In the early days he went with the MXR Analog Delay, but nowadays he seems to be using TC Electronic 2290 rack delay.

– Dunlop Cry Baby
Mark used it on Money for Nothing, having it in a fixed position.

– Crowther Audio Hotcake
Very basic old-school fuzz seen on some of the more recent tours (post 2000).

Mark Knopfler’s Guitar Strings:
– D’Addario EXL 120 9-42 – used on most of his electric guitars.

– Dean Markley Custom Light 12-53 – used on his acoustics.

– D’Addario EJ15/3D 10-47 – used on the National.

Contributors: C64x8, classichomes, gosselin.bruno, onlyforworldoft, J.Kelley

I think your data is a little old. I’m not saying Knopfler still doesn’t have these, but he’s touring with a Kemper now - clean stage.

 

[Derek S]

Penny: "Well try our house burger, it's just like the Big Boy".
Sheldon: "Tell me, in a world that already contains a Big Boy cheeseburger, why would I settle for something just like the Big Boy?"

Haha...just messing. It's been real tube amps for me to this point in my life...but i understand the benefits of modelers, emulation, etc, and actually do see myself owning some quiet, direct recording type of gear someday for ease and practicality...i'm just not there yet.

 

[miyaru]

I have to say progress is made...... Kemper sounds really good, as a friend of mine has and uses one - I heard it many times and it is close to spot on, but: I love my little tube amps better for their organic and harmonic warm sound, just as my pedals on my pedalboard. Just an opinion, and I'm surely no pro.........